Electric Anyone?

[Jim Pona]

Hello All,

If I am missing an existing thread on this subject, please let me know. I will be replacing my '07 F150 ("Thickety Ford") in a year or so - hopefully with an electric pickup assuming there are sufficiently positive reviews once they hit the market. Thickety Ford has towed our '07 Safari 25SS (5,600+gvw) beautifully for ten years, and that performance level - less one breakdown - is what I'd like to have in my replacement vehicle.

I will be looking at all brands to be on the market in 2021 or soon thereafter. The Rivian pickup was impressive in a factory test trip pulling an 11,000 lb trailer. Among my many questions are: Mechanical/electronic reliability; range'per-charge when pulling a heavy trailer; number/distribution of charging stations; evolving charging standard; probable reliability of the skateboard; company track record; and likelihood of surviving a market where there will no doubt be a big shakeout. Another question: Likely that any spooky action could result from an electric tv's onboard computer trying to manage multiple motors under the dynamic load of a trailer?

So, an exciting game changer is coming with electrics. Would love to hear your thoughts on any aspect as it unfolds!

[BayouBiker]

Thoughts and opinions are likely all you will get at this early stage. I have not seen any fact based answers just yet. Doubt there will be any for a couple three years. There have been a couple threads on electric trucks and some threads reporting early results towing with Teslas. I do know the electric and hybrid vehicle industry is currently working out complexities associated with towing and the regenerative braking in light of trailer brakes "robing" much of the system energy when brakes are applied.

[skyguyscott]

I would add, for the sake of your own sanity, to temper your expectations on the this still early generation electric vehicles. If the electric vehicles come anywhere near the reliability and range of ice vehicles that will be a remarkable and astonishing accomplishment. Remember ice vehicles have been in development and refinement for over 100 years. There simply isn’t any way the electric vehicle will be able to match that same level fresh out of the gate. I plan on getting an electric vehicle within the next five years, but fully expect to pay the “early adopter tax” in finding and ironing out all the wrinkles, smashing bugs and so on. You can research all of the articles, white papers, owner anecdotes, and studies all you want, but at this point it’s all still mostly hype.

[OTRA15]

Earlier threads/posts FYI.

“Electric tow vehicle” search results here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Elec...=airforums.com

Model X: https://www.airforums.com/forums/f46...-x-160951.html

[Bobbo]

You're braver than I am.

[ddruker]

I think it will be a long long long time before we have viable electric tow vehicles as realistic choices for our airstream. At least a decade.



Three big challenges are

1) Range when towing, and

2) How long it takes to recharge

3) Availability of high speed charging out in the boonies, in national parks, along remote rural highways, etc


#2 will get fixed fairly quickly.

#1 with today's tech implies you need a battery 3X larger than you do for regular non-towing uses - which implies an unsolvable cost and weight problem

#3 will require hundreds of billions in new infrastructure spending and take decades



Suggest you review the attached video series carefully to see what a bunch of Tesla fans found when trying to tow with a Model X.

https://tflcar.com/2019/08/tesla-mod...p-adventure-x/

[BayouBiker]

More on Dan's point 1. From energy balance estimates, on flat and rolling terrain towing consumes about 1.8 times the non-towing energy from rolling and aerodynamic resistance.

Now, depending on how well regenerative braking is resolved while towing, a trailer, which is likely for at least then next ten years, to remain with friction brakes, we can add another .1-.5 in braking losses on flats depending on road conditions and number of stops. On mountains and highways with many controlled intersections, you will be approaching Jim's number of 3 times.

[LNBright]

Between my Sierras, I’d owned a 4Runner, and am friends with my sales guy. He was trying to get me to hold on for the next Tundra, but I needed to get on back to a truck before it arrived, so I’m back to a Sierra. But, the next Tundra is supposed to be available as a hybrid, like a Prius, where it has multiple motors with a smaller ICE to power them. The fact that it can have the refill speed of pulling up to the pump and make use of existing infrastructure is huge.

Eventually, electrics (direct electrics) will be better, but the recharge infrastructure has to be more easily found while on the road, and the amount of time it takes to recharge a vehicle has to be drastically reduced before it can be wholesale adopted for cross-country towing. IMO....

[jaybauman]

The heavy trucking industry in Europe is working feverishly to electrify long distance hauling, and their plan is to use hydrogen fuel cells. This allows for rapid "charging", and larger tanks provide for longer towing distances. I place money that after wide scale deployment, this technology will quickly trickle down to the consumer/commercial space currently supporting light duty (e.g. 2500/3500) tow vehicles. We won't be plugging in our trucks to electrical outlets; instead, we'll be topping off with liquid(?) hydrogen.

If you haven't been paying attention, this technology is evolving faster than you may realize. I expect these propulsion systems will be commonplace in lorries by the end of the decade. I wonder how long before the rest of us have access? I'm looking forward to that infinite torque that electrical motors generate!

[LNBright]

The problem with liquid hydrogen is the most economical source is to obtain it from natural gas, which really doesn’t help the whole problem in the first place. Thus far, electrolysis of water has been too energy intensive to be economical for actual use. There are lots of demos around such, but scaling up to an industrial level of supply will only happen if it makes sense economically. And if it ever becomes something that can be done for industrial use, that’s still not necessarily filtering down to consumer end use.... I don’t foresee the average driver ever being able to refill their hydrogen cell with liquid oxygen. Our office has a propane tank, for our inspectors’ vehicles to be filled, they’re dual fuel gas and propane. But I don’t know that it is actually worthwhile, I think it’s more of a ‘say we did it’ thing. I almost feel that way about the hydrogen fuel cell discussion... it’s one thing to talk about them, but another to actually make them useful.

[idoco]

Regarding original poster's question on an electric pickup truck...both Tesla, Rivian, and Ford all look promising. Don't know if any will be available in the time frame you are looking.

Just as important as the vehicle stats (range, tow capacity, etc) is the charging network. At this point Tesla by far has the best charging infrastructure.

[idoco]

As for those commenting that EV towing is impractical...

...if your goal is to go 500 miles a day, without stopping for seven hours...then I would agree. Not happening in the near future.

...if your goal is to go up to 250 miles in a day with a short stop 2+ hours in...then that's already here. BTW...charging frequently takes less time than grabbing a coffee, using the facilities, and walking the dogs.

Many RV's already limit travel on most days to <250 miles. And stop every 2-3 hours. So an EV imposes no real change in behavior.

As an aside, we were in Newfoundland the same time as the AS Viking Caravan. Went over on the same boat. Did essentially the same itinerary (though not side by side). Returned a day or two before them.

Point being that the EV imposed no real restrictions on us compared to the non-EV travelers. And Newfoundland has no high speed charging and virtually no medium speed charging. 99% charging was done at campgrounds.

[idoco]

Regarding boondocking with an EV...

We've boondocked (no hookups) for up to ten days. As long as your within round trip range or a charging location it's not that hard.

Here's a map of just the Tesla charging network. Circles indicate a 60 mile radius. So this allows a 120 mile round trip (back and out). This doesn't even include third party chargers where you might go into town for the day and top off. Or go for a hike and top off at the visitors center.

Can you get to 100% of the places you can go with an ICE? No. But you sure can get to most.

[Dennis C]

My wife and I own an EV that she uses as her daily driver. For most driving situations and most drivers, a modern EV has no restrictions compared to a car with a traditional ICE. It’s actually quite nice to leave the house with a full charge, and not have to stand out in the cold filling your car with fuel at a gas station!

I think the points above are good, especially those regarding charging station infrastructure. The infrastructure is building rapidly, but it still has a long way to go. VW Audi group was required to invest heavily in the US as part of their settlement over their diesel engine scam. This can be seen in the form of Electrify America charging stations, found at most Walmart super centers and many other locations. These chargers are nice, and they offer DC rapid charging that will recharge your EV battery very quickly.

In my opinion, an EV as a tow vehicle presents some unique challenges. First of all, they look to have much bigger batteries than passenger vehicles, and so the charge times will be longer. I think the battery in the Rivian and in the HUMMER is 400 kWh, compared to the 90 kWh in my car. This could mean a charge time approaching 2 hours, even on a DC rapid charger. Secondly, the charging station network isn’t as reliable as it should be. If you’ve planned a trip that requires you to recharge at a certain point and the charging station is inoperative when you arrive, then you could be in trouble. Finally, if you like to get away from civilization when you camp, then you’re also getting away from the charging network. Right now, the network is designed to cover large metro areas and interstate highways. Once you get off the beaten path, your options are limited.

I’m a supporter of EVs, and I’m really happy that we own one. That said, I don’t see it as a practical option yet for towing an Airstream.

[pjshier]

Short-haul in AK works great and my son in Juneau is buying an EV - perfect for their hydro-based run around town style. Truly perfect. I've been intrigued by EVs since my neighbor built one out of a Vauxhaul (sp?) in his garage when I was about 10 years old. Used old telephone utility silver batteries and carried a gas generator in the trunk just in case.

But if you yearn to explore Alaska soon, Canada and Alaska are pretty sparse for big electric sources between cities. Sure there are lines overhead in AK, but the interties are the express bus - few stops in between. In the Yukon Territory and British Columbia - there are 100s of miles with no interties.

We tend to enjoy the remote spots, so are stuck with ICE energy density for now. We just hope we don't get regulated out of existence by folks that have no concept of the spaces and considerations of rural folks.

[Jim Pona]

All good information and thought here! Er, my next tv may not be an electric after all, but rather a preowned late model F150 to replace 13-year old "Thickety Ford". Maybe keep it for 2-4 years, then take the electric plunge once the issues raised by BayouBiker, Skyguyscott, and ddruker shake out. Great clarifiers - thanks gentlemen.