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Old 08-29-2021, 08:12 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by GettinAway View Post
I used sunroof in my other example. Was just looking for something different. You pick the accessories. The point is half tons are capable trucks. I believe there just has to be some margin of safety built in. Adding a whole trim level (are you happy now?) now makes it unsafe? You can worry yourself to death and change your tire pressures if someone moves a cup to another cupboard, or run to the scales if you want to haul in some extra fresh water to an out of the way campsite. Iíll just live way out there on the edge, and take my chances.
I don't like to use the "margin of safety" as my personal "I don't need a better truck." I like to leave the margin of safety as just that, a margin of safety, for those times when nature, or other humans, throw unexpected obstacles in my path. I want MY margin of safety to be ready for the totally unexpected, not used up because I think I know better than the automotive engineers.

The problem with you living way out there on the edge, taking your chances, is that everyone else on the road is taking your chances too.

Personally, I see that no different than drunk driving. Sure, people drive drunk all the time, taking their chances, and getting away with it. However, every once in a while, you see a young family killed because a drunk driver was driving the wrong way on the interstate. That drunk driver was living out there on the edge, taking his chances.
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Old 08-29-2021, 09:11 PM   #142
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If it’s a proven capable vehicle to begin with, adding electric seats won’t make it suddenly dangerous. I do not think the engineers are that precise that the truck falls apart with the addition of a rear camera. I would imagine they follow formulas. I would also imagine they don’t test every component with every possible option in place.
They don't need to test every possible combination of options. They know the maximum capacity that the drivetrain, brakes, chassis, etc. can handle, they know the weight of a base truck, and they know the weight of each option.

The addition of electric seats doesn't make a capable vehicle dangerous, but every option adds weight, therefore reduces payload and that's the number that gets posted to the sticker. It's then up to the owner to stay within the specified limits.

After all, it's in the manufacturer's interest to show the highest payload possible and the fact that they don't pick a higher number means that it's not arbitrary and there's some engineering rationale behind it. I think of payload information as being similar to the admonition to wear a seatbelt. You can drive a vehicle thousands of miles without wearing a seatbelt and never have a problem, but that doesn't prove it's a good idea do so.
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Old 08-30-2021, 06:45 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
I don't like to use the "margin of safety" as my personal "I don't need a better truck." I like to leave the margin of safety as just that, a margin of safety, for those times when nature, or other humans, throw unexpected obstacles in my path. I want MY margin of safety to be ready for the totally unexpected, not used up because I think I know better than the automotive engineers.

The problem with you living way out there on the edge, taking your chances, is that everyone else on the road is taking your chances too.

Personally, I see that no different than drunk driving. Sure, people drive drunk all the time, taking their chances, and getting away with it. However, every once in a while, you see a young family killed because a drunk driver was driving the wrong way on the interstate. That drunk driver was living out there on the edge, taking his chances.
My gosh, youíve never driven my truck pulling my trailer. You assume so much! Have you pulled over Beartooth Pass going from WY into Montana? I have. Have you pulled in an ice storm? I have. Have you pulled in big winds across KS and OK? I have. It pulls great. Thereís no white knuckle times. Thereís no tail wagging the dog. I guess youíre trying to save the world from us huge risk takers. Iíve just pulled too many trailers too many miles to let your math calculations dictate whatís safe and not safe. Drunk driving.. Give me a break. You act like a 3/4 ton truck will solve all your problems. I think there just might be a few other parts to the equation. Iíve always thought that the nut behind the wheel was the biggest factor. Oh well, Iím as safe on the road as you are. So Iím good with that.
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Old 08-30-2021, 07:25 AM   #144
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My gosh, youíve never driven my truck pulling my trailer. You assume so much! Have you pulled over Beartooth Pass going from WY into Montana? I have. Have you pulled in an ice storm? I have. Have you pulled in big winds across KS and OK? I have. It pulls great. Thereís no white knuckle times. Thereís no tail wagging the dog. I guess youíre trying to save the world from us huge risk takers. Iíve just pulled too many trailers too many miles to let your math calculations dictate whatís safe and not safe. Drunk driving.. Give me a break. You act like a 3/4 ton truck will solve all your problems. I think there just might be a few other parts to the equation. Iíve always thought that the nut behind the wheel was the biggest factor. Oh well, Iím as safe on the road as you are. So Iím good with that.
I'm not talking about your truck. I don't know your truck. I'm talking about knowingly and willingly ignoring designer's specifications. And recommending others, folks without YOUR vast experience, do the same .

And yes. I stand by my drunk driver comparison. A drunk driver is someone who knowingly and willingly ignores society's "specifications." His vast experience tells him it is OK. After all, he has done that for YEARS and has never had a problem. The occasional head on collision that we read about says that it is ALWAYS a bad idea.
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Old 08-30-2021, 07:27 AM   #145
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Bobbo, I’ll make it easier for you. Have you ever pulled a 25AS with a half ton? How about a modified 1/2 ton? How about one with a Roadmaster Active Suspension, 20” E rated tires, and Bilstein Shocks? It’s a grey area, I realize that. There’s no place I can go and get my truck re-certified with a greater payload sticker. It just works. You were interesting until you threw out the drunk driver example.
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Old 08-30-2021, 06:52 PM   #146
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I ordered a 2021 F150 Lariat with 502a, max tow, 3.5 eco,FX4, 20" wheels and 6'.5" (157") wheelbase. It arrived about a month ago. The payload on the door was 1762#. More would be better but it aint bad for me, the wife and our 23D.
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Old 08-30-2021, 08:43 PM   #147
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Bobbo, Iíll make it easier for you. Have you ever pulled a 25AS with a half ton? How about a modified 1/2 ton? How about one with a Roadmaster Active Suspension, 20Ē E rated tires, and Bilstein Shocks? Itís a grey area, I realize that. Thereís no place I can go and get my truck re-certified with a greater payload sticker. It just works. You were interesting until you threw out the drunk driver example.
What I have pulled is immaterial. What is material is what the engineers have stipulated. There is no "grey area." The specifications support it, or they don't. "But I get away with it" is not an acceptable substitute. "It just works" is fine, until it doesn't.

"It just works" is exactly what the drunk driver said the day before he went the wrong way on the interstate.

You won't convince me, and I won't convince you. However, in my opinion, no one has the right to risk other peoples' lives on the highway by relying on the "safety margin."

I am sorry if my drunk driver analogy came a little too close to home. However, it is apt to the risks others are being forced to assume with no choice in the matter.
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Old 08-30-2021, 09:56 PM   #148
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Maybe we should all be towing with a tank. I’m with GettinAway.
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Old 08-30-2021, 11:24 PM   #149
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Maybe we should all be towing with a tank. I’m with GettinAway.
Fortunately, there are choices available in between TV's with marginal or inadequate payload capacity and a tank.
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Old 08-31-2021, 05:20 AM   #150
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What I have pulled is immaterial.
I am sorry if my drunk driver analogy came a little too close to home. However, it is apt to the risks others are being forced to assume with no choice in the matter.
Doesnít hit home to me. Makes about as much sense as ďa half ton is no more than a passenger carĒ. I know that wasnít your statement, but itís in the same category. As I said before, Iím no more dangerous to anyone around me than you are. Maybe less so. As I do have a lot of experience.
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Old 08-31-2021, 06:50 AM   #151
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Useless?

Exactly what IS the purpose of this thread?

I believe we have reached the end of the trip.

Drunk drivers notwithstanding.

Bob
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Old 08-31-2021, 07:18 AM   #152
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Doesnít hit home to me. Makes about as much sense as ďa half ton is no more than a passenger carĒ. I know that wasnít your statement, but itís in the same category. As I said before, Iím no more dangerous to anyone around me than you are. Maybe less so. As I do have a lot of experience.
You are twisting my statement. I am not saying a 1/2 ton is no more than a passenger car. I am saying a 1/2 ton is less capable than a 3/4 ton or 1 ton. I am also saying we should stay within the rated capability of each and every tow vehicle.

A 1/2 ton has a rated capacity. For a reason.

If you note in my signature, I am towing with a 1/2 ton. It has a payload sticker that shows 1895 pounds. My 23 foot Airstream has a GVWR of 6,000 pounds and a maximum tongue weight of about 900 pounds. Well within the rated capacity of the 1/2 ton, even with the bed cap and all the crap we carry when camping. If I had gone with a heavier Airstream, I would have bought a 3/4 ton or 1 ton.

My whole point is that we shouldn't knowingly and willingly exceed the ratings. We should respect the engineers' limits.
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Old 08-31-2021, 07:23 AM   #153
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^
All subjective><><>What are the actual scale weights?

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Old 08-31-2021, 08:54 AM   #154
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Thread closed.

A very special thanks to the few that offered meaningful commentary to the OP.

Not so many thanks to the few who chose to derail this thread.
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