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Old 08-28-2021, 11:33 AM   #121
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Larger vs Smaller freedom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailorguy View Post
The above Post was meant to express my views of the RV Industry and how, in my opinion, it has gone crazy!
This has been fueled by both the RV Manufactures and the Auto Industry, both being greedy! This has resulted in RVs being way to big and heavy. We've all seen RVs struggling to fit into Campsites blocking the sun from your neighbors etc. If you get an opportunity to take a tour of the Airstream Factory, ask to see a example of their "European Model." They are similar in size to the 1960-70 USA Models. I wish I could buy one for use here! IMO, the popularity of the Class B+ Market and smaller Lite Weight Trailers is a direct result of people saying enough of these bigger RV. We got tired of the RV Industry "Supper Sizing" us, while also making poor quality RVs, so we bought a Oliver Elite 2 Trailer, which can be towed with a SUV, in our case a MB- GL450. BTW, we can carry two 60 lb Folding E Bikes, one on the back of the trailer and one inside the SUV, to take advantage of the payload capacity of each vehicle, along with other normal stuff. This does max out our Payload, which is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailorguy View Post
The above Post was meant to express my views of the RV Industry and how, in my opinion, it has gone crazy!
This has been fueled by both the RV Manufactures and the Auto Industry, both being greedy! This has resulted in RVs being way to big and heavy. We've all seen RVs struggling to fit into Campsites blocking the sun from your neighbors etc. If you get an opportunity to take a tour of the Airstream Factory, ask to see a example of their "European Model." They are similar in size to the 1960-70 USA Models. I wish I could buy one for use here! IMO, the popularity of the Class B+ Market and smaller Lite Weight Trailers is a direct result of people saying enough of these bigger RV. We got tired of the RV Industry "Supper Sizing" us, while also making poor quality RVs, so we bought a Oliver Elite 2 Trailer, which can be towed with a SUV, in our case a MB- GL450. BTW, we can carry two 60 lb Folding E Bikes, one on the back of the trailer and one inside the SUV, to take advantage of the payload capacity of each vehicle, along with other normal stuff. This does max out our Payload, which is fine.
Disclosure:
I tow our 16 25FC with F150 4x4 Lariat with sticker payload of 2031 with no major complaints for the last five years. If I full timed or traveled more than a couple months at a time, would likely up grade to vehicle with at least 3000 lbs. I might anyway! This is America, not Europe. Go small/light if you choose. Plenty options available. Those that want 33 ft classics or heavy 5th wheels and duallies, go for it! Plenty options available. Why would anyone want to limit choices in the land of the free? Americans used to vote on what they wanted
With their checkbooks. Those that want to make you limit your choices to “smaller” or “electric only” seem to have lost that concept that has made America’s unique. A vibrant capitalist system built this nation and made us the most successful experiment in freedom the world has ever seen in all of history with the highest level of technological advancement. Whatever our issues or challenges can be met with confidence of success as long as we value and preserve Freedom.

Your choice of an Oliver was sound given your choices. Let’s respect other folks choices, too.
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Old 08-28-2021, 11:56 AM   #122
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As a relative newcomer to towing, I see a lot of ink related to payload. I'm sure it's a very important measurement, so lets establish that upfront to avoid misinterpretation.

After towing a 25' AS with a 1/2 Tundra for a bit, much of that in and around the Smoky Mountains, I knew instinctively that it was not optimally equipped for the Rockies or that type of terrain, so I made a trade for my RAM 2500 diesel.

What gives me added confidence is the added weight of the RAM. I wasn't over on the payload with the Tundra, but it was a lighter, less stable platform and I don't see that discussed at any length. With 8K lbs. behind you, I'd think the added heft of the 3/4 ton to be an important part of the conversation.

Am I off base?
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Old 08-28-2021, 12:04 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailorguy View Post
Watch the YouTube, Channel John and Jess Journey. They have a 32 foot AS and are full timers with a F150 and tow kids with all their stuff. Very good Videos.
I pull my 30’ bunk all over the place with an F150. I have the 450hp eco boost with cruddy payload so I went with a Hensley Arrow. We got caught in the Midwest storms yesterday with 50-60mph gusts, it handled it very well.
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Old 08-28-2021, 01:39 PM   #124
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good decision

Not one bit 'Gibson3798'. Always bring enough truck.
You don't want the AS pushing you around. I cannot imagine towing my 28 AS with anything less than my D-Ram.
I had a 1500 way back in the 01 - 07 years and a 23' some other brand trailer. The 1500 was great on flatland with the smaller trailer. Tidewater Virginia, coastal Carolina's, no issues at all. To Florida , all good.
Piedmont would wear you out, up and down hills. Blue Ridge, & West Virginia, heck I might as well stayed in second gear. Three grand RPM all the time is annoying. I knew I couldn't even consider upgrading travel trailer.

Bought the Dodge with the Cummins 5.9 and never looked back. Excellent fuel mileage, rarely over 2000 RPM and its a pleasure to pull the AS. I use the Equalizer hitch, and no herky-jerky. Smooth ride. Keep the tires balanced right and the 2500 is a good ride un-laden. Love the D-Ram.

I never have to convince myself, 'yeah I'm gettin' by, or having people say, oh no, Pass 'that guy' ! on the interstate highway.
You don't want to be 'that guy'. LOL

To each his own. Gibson3798, I think you will enjoy the ride through the Rockies with the Ram.
I'd like to get back to Canada one of these days if they would open the border.
Have a good one !
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Old 08-28-2021, 04:00 PM   #125
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Forgotten in all this is the effect of a weight distributing hitch—it distributes weight to the truck and trailer axles from the tongue weight. While there are disagreements about how much weight, for years knowledgeable people on the Forum did the math and came up with about 1/3 of the weight is transferred to the trailer axles. I recall the formula being posted by an engineer or physics major. I did not understand the math, but I am not an engineer. So with 1,000 lb. tongue weight, 333 lbs. is transferred to the trailer, reducing its cargo carrying capacity but increasing the truck's capacity.

Some people checked it by weighing the vehicles with and without a WD hitch. The numbers were all a bit different of course, but certainly a couple of hundred pounds were transferred to the trailer axles and often more up to 1/3.

So if you have a 1/2 ton truck with cargo capacity of 1,500 lbs. towing a 25' Airstream, as much as 333 lbs. is transferred. You can take the dogs and eat more.

You can see people have very different experiences towing with 1/2 ton trucks. I and others have towed trailers over Colorado mountain pass for years without problems, but regardless of that, others claim a Tundra or other 1/2 ton cannot get over the passes easily. Or they do not "feel" safe. Feelings are subjective and have to be considered. I learned to drive in NYC, so intense city driving is normal to me, but others cannot do it. I have lived in mountainous areas for most of my driving life, so I got used to it. While driving on mountain roads, especially without guardrails (common in Colorado on state highways), some people hug the center line or go over it into the opposing lane and others just drive in the middle of their lane. That tells you something. On the other hand, hours of driving across the Great Plains can put me to sleep, so my wife drives on the plains and I drive in the cities. In the end what works for you is what works. And what doesn't work for others, may work for you.
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Old 08-28-2021, 07:43 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
The thing that makes me shake my head is when folks ignore the limits and warnings the engineers have put on anything that can be dangerous if misused. What do the designers and engineers know, anyway?

The reason that adding a sun roof makes a difference is because everyone is already looking at marginal tow vehicles to begin with.

All of these discussions simplify down to one question. "Will a marginal 1500 level vehicle do or must I get a capable 2500 level vehicle?"

You note that when someone is getting a 2500 or a 3500, no one is saying to leave off the bling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
That's not necessarily true. Quite a few 2500 diesels can be close to the payload of a 1500 Maxtow. Ya gotta be careful and SPEC a truck, and order if you need to.
Then that is not a "capable 2500 level vehicle." Notice the word "capable" in my original post. If I had meant ANY 2500 level vehicle, then that is what I would have said.
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Old 08-29-2021, 06:21 AM   #127
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As far as “moving the weight” to the front axles with a WDH, it does not change the payload weight calculation. It is simple math, the total weight of the vehicle, it’s passengers, gear, tongue weight of pulled vehicle (AS, boat etc.), the weight of the weight distribution hitch, etc.). You can’t get extra payload by distributing the weight. As far as the infatuation with the door sticker, that is the payload capacity and it is quite different than the sales brochure max payload capacity, which is a stripped down vehicle probably with a long bed. As you add “stuff” the weight of the vehicle goes up. Bottom line is that you can feel like you are OK if you exceed the sticker payload capacity but those limits take into consideration the wear and take of the suspension, transmission, tires etc. Per a google search these are the possible outcomes when you exceed payload capacity: What happens if I overload my truck?

There are several indications that let you know your truck is carrying too much weight. The first thing you will notice is the steering. The additional pressure on the shocks and suspension system will make it harder for you to steer the truck. The second risk you run is blowing out a tire due to the added pressure. Other additional issues you can run into include transmission failure, bumps in the road will become enhanced, and other structural damage. In a emergency situation these may lead to the inability to stop in time, swerve to avoid collision and enhance the possibility of a rollover.

I for one am not willing to increase my odds of have having a bad outcome for the sake of using a marginal tow vehicle. I’m sure that many people get away with a marginal setup. I am not willing to risk the safety of my family. The capacities on the door sticker are the actual capacities for that specific vehicle, If you choose to ignore them then I hope that luck is on your side.
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:29 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
The thing that makes me shake my head is when folks ignore the limits and warnings the engineers have put on anything that can be dangerous if misused. What do the designers and engineers know, anyway?

The reason that adding a sun roof makes a difference is because everyone is already looking at marginal tow vehicles to begin with.

All of these discussions simplify down to one question. "Will a marginal 1500 level vehicle do or must I get a capable 2500 level vehicle?"

You note that when someone is getting a 2500 or a 3500, no one is saying to leave off the bling.
If it’s a proven capable vehicle to begin with, adding electric seats won’t make it suddenly dangerous. I do not think the engineers are that precise that the truck falls apart with the addition of a rear camera. I would imagine they follow formulas. I would also imagine they don’t test every component with every possible option in place.
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:37 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibson3798 View Post
As a relative newcomer to towing, I see a lot of ink related to payload. I'm sure it's a very important measurement, so lets establish that upfront to avoid misinterpretation.

After towing a 25' AS with a 1/2 Tundra for a bit, much of that in and around the Smoky Mountains, I knew instinctively that it was not optimally equipped for the Rockies or that type of terrain, so I made a trade for my RAM 2500 diesel.

What gives me added confidence is the added weight of the RAM. I wasn't over on the payload with the Tundra, but it was a lighter, less stable platform and I don't see that discussed at any length. With 8K lbs. behind you, I'd think the added heft of the 3/4 ton to be an important part of the conversation.

Am I off base?
Well, you could have modified your tundra a bit and made it more capable. But this group won’t approve that. You’d still be pushing the door sticker. For some reason, only 3/4 ton trucks can be modified. Half ton trucks cannot.
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:45 AM   #130
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I don’t have a dog in this fight; I’m just trying to learn. Isn’t the door sticker value based on the actual weakest link in the system? I’ve seen leaf spring upgrades offered for 1/2 ton trucks which add a leaf and make things a bit stiffer in the rear, but if the rear axle is the limiting factor, then the maximum payload capacity remains unchanged, correct? Are there other upgrades for 1/2 ton trucks that really add payload capacity?
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:51 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinAway View Post
If it’s a proven capable vehicle to begin with, adding electric seats won’t make it suddenly dangerous. I do not think the engineers are that precise that the truck falls apart with the addition of a rear camera. I would imagine they follow formulas. I would also imagine they don’t test every component with every possible option in place.
Proven capable? Proven by whom? Rationalizing exceeding limits that are set by the only people able to "prove" capability, the design engineers, is easy.

I note that you chose as your example something light, a camera. Why not something that weighs hundreds of pounds, like a double moon roof?

Go ahead. Rationalize away.
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Old 08-29-2021, 08:19 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyPro View Post
Thank you so much, GypsyDad, this information helps me out a great deal.

In the Ford Towing Manual, the 3.5L PowerBoost Hybrid would have "available" Max Payload of 2120 lbs. Your friend's sticker has 1412 lbs. That 708 lb difference is what I am trying to account for, in terms of his options. My best guess is that the 4x4 option with the skid plates took a large chunk of that, along with the 3.73 axle. The 20" tires and the moonroof, sport appearance package? Maybe, not sure. Good choice to go with that 7.2kw Pro Power Onboard, which is THE PRIMARY reason I ordered one.

My order is the XLT with only two wheel drive, and as stripped down as much as possible. The only "splurges" in options, were all in electronic components, i.e. the 360 Degree Camera, the onboard scale with smart hitch.

I'll know for sure, only when the unit is finally delivered, which could take forever.
My concern would be payload with your 27', plus of course, "control" if your traveling a lot on major highways and mountains...We (larger 3/4T-1T) owners who have also towed 25' + size AS's with the 1/2T's can tell you, "you won't understand the value of the larger TV vs the 1/2T or SUV, unless you try it". There is a heugh difference in the experience, especially going down mountains at highway speeds. (or, when you have to "hit the brakes" in an emergency with a swerve maneuver to avoid an accident.

The comment a post or 2 back about hiking with proper shoes is a good analogy...but, some folks still do what the want...be safe out there.
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Old 08-29-2021, 08:20 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinAway View Post
Well, you could have modified your tundra a bit and made it more capable. But this group won’t approve that. You’d still be pushing the door sticker. For some reason, only 3/4 ton trucks can be modified. Half ton trucks cannot.
Perhaps I could have but then I'd still be towing with a light duty truck.

Some in this group enjoy towing with a lightly built, marginally suitable TV so the trip to the grocery is more enjoyable and parking is a breeze.

I bought a truck designed and built to do the hardest job and most risky job it will be called on to perform, with a greater margin of capability and safety.

Many in this group are like me, and others are not.
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Old 08-29-2021, 09:01 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyPro View Post
Thank you so much, GypsyDad, this information helps me out a great deal.

In the Ford Towing Manual, the 3.5L PowerBoost Hybrid would have "available" Max Payload of 2120 lbs. Your friend's sticker has 1412 lbs. That 708 lb difference is what I am trying to account for, in terms of his options. My best guess is that the 4x4 option with the skid plates took a large chunk of that, along with the 3.73 axle. The 20" tires and the moonroof, sport appearance package? Maybe, not sure. Good choice to go with that 7.2kw Pro Power Onboard, which is THE PRIMARY reason I ordered one.

My order is the XLT with only two wheel drive, and as stripped down as much as possible. The only "splurges" in options, were all in electronic components, i.e. the 360 Degree Camera, the onboard scale with smart hitch.

I'll know for sure, only when the unit is finally delivered, which could take forever.
Hi

There are a number of options on that list that add to the weight. It is *not* all coming from the 4x4 package.....

Bob
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Old 08-29-2021, 09:25 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mefly2 View Post
...

Quite a dilemma since I finally dropped the $$ for a Sherline scale which indicates a tongue weight (with full propane tanks, AGM factory batteries, minimal gear stored in front ~ 30 lbs, mattress topper, and NO water) of 1,000 lbs.
The hatch in the rear of the Eddie Bauer does not seem to mitigate the tongue weight measurably.

Wife, me, and dogs plus tonneau cover are just over 500 pounds???
We had a nice 3/4 diesel but prefer the 1//2 T for daily use ...
We prefer to not have another 3/4 T...
What would you do?

Were you careful to have the trailer at the towing attitude (hopefully level) when you used the Sherline? Level had a dramatic effect when I borrowed a Sherline to measure the tongue weight of my 25. Also I found the numbers were not as repeatable as I would like. GEt the trailer level and make several measurements to be sure.


That said I think you will be much happier with a 3/4T truck towing unless you do all your towing on the flat. I was with my 25 and it only grossed 6300# (I was towing with an older F-150 with the larger V8 but only a 4-speed transmission).
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Old 08-29-2021, 10:19 AM   #136
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Everyone makes their decisions based on different criteria. I for one use the numbers provided by the auto manufacturing companies.l (the door sticker not the sales brochure) to make my choices. To each his own. It kind of reminds me of the dilemma to vax or not. Different people have different beliefs and criteria as to whether to get vaccinated and I respect their right to decide on what’s best for them. As far as towing AS’s I respect everyone’s choice as far as a appropriate TV. I think it’s smart to understand the different towing capacity factors to make sure that you are being safe. But please use factual information to make your decision. For example, some people believe that using a weight distribution hitch will up your payload capacity. That is absolutely a false assumption So I recommend those who are looking at TV’s understand all the significant towing capacities and how that lines up with your AS and TV choices. Make educated not emotional decisions then enjoy the journey.
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Old 08-29-2021, 01:07 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Proven capable? Proven by whom? Rationalizing exceeding limits that are set by the only people able to "prove" capability, the design engineers, is easy.

I note that you chose as your example something light, a camera. Why not something that weighs hundreds of pounds, like a double moon roof?

Go ahead. Rationalize away.
I used sunroof in my other example. Was just looking for something different. You pick the accessories. The point is half tons are capable trucks. I believe there just has to be some margin of safety built in. Adding a whole trim level (are you happy now?) now makes it unsafe? You can worry yourself to death and change your tire pressures if someone moves a cup to another cupboard, or run to the scales if you want to haul in some extra fresh water to an out of the way campsite. I’ll just live way out there on the edge, and take my chances.
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Old 08-29-2021, 02:18 PM   #138
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The door sticker tells what the numbers were as the truck left the factory. The dealer may add some things. These require an additional sticker but you may have to look for it and it may be hidden in the window sticker info. Anything you have added has to be taken into consideration too.

Promotional brochures sometimes tell the specs for different models. The owner’s manual also gives info and can usually be found online before you go truck shopping. The door sticker and any additions are the final word.

Since what you bring is very important, you can weigh clothes, tools, food, etc., before you buy anything, or if after purchase, to see what you can load into both the truck and the trailer. This is a pain to do, but may give you some surprises. As has been stated, the cargo tends to grow as the years pass and you discover more things you “have” to have. Self discipline is always hard.

The contention that a weight distributing hitch does not distribute weight requires some proof plus a new name for that type of hitch. Perhaps “weight undistributing hitch?”. I wonder why so many of us have purchased a weight distributing hitch if it does nothing—maybe they are really for sway control but not called that. A few minutes research on the internet will reveal info about how WD hitches work and if they distribute weight. One of the things that comes up are discussions on this Forum with much feedback from engineers.
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Old 08-29-2021, 05:28 PM   #139
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Thanks, GypsyDad. I hear you, and I understand. In my case, it is just me (solo traveler). I'm an avid golfer, so my golf clubs make up the bulk of the "toys". With the Pro Power Plus option, I also won't need to carry a separate generator. Maybe if I meet someone special in the future, that would change.
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:18 PM   #140
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Kinda off-topic but I saw a neat setup today. A fellow camper said he found a wreck Class A with a diesel Onan generator and pick it for 150 bucks. He Installed a 75-gallon aux diesel in the bed of his truck and plumb both into his truck's fuel tank and into the generator. He said the fuel consumption is about .4 gallons per hour at full load. Now he has 120 gallons for towing and 75 gallons for his generator. He even has cut off so run off just the truck's tank and have a full 75 gallons to run the generator. He had this setup it an F350 so plenty of paylaod. Since the generator has a wired remote start he working on a way to start it wirelessly.
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