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Old 12-06-2019, 06:51 PM   #41
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Buddies and dealers are the wrong way to learn about diesels. Either. Gassed or diesel can be a nightmare if you donít know what youíre doing. Dealerships have 19 year olds working who donít know squat about diesels.
I will be putting in my due diligence before I leap....we were friends long before he worked as a dealer service manager.

I've been on the end of the low end technicians lack of experience work product....so your message isn't falling on deaf ears.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:51 PM   #42
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The new gassers are great.....
Tons of naturally aspirated, simple horsepower, easy to maintain, and if you have a failure, repairable for less than the value of your entire truck.....

I cant count the number of stories I have heard about guys with 4 year old diesel trucks, they have a catastrophic engine failure, need a new engine,or significant engine work, and the cost of that engine is more than the value of the truck, not to mention, they do not have the cash laying around to pay for it.....so.......
They have to go get another truck, because they have to have a truck, and they then have two truck payments, only, one of them, is total junk, and not worth repairing.......happens all the time.

So again, the wise rule is, do not own a diesel without a warranty, and do not buy a diesel unless you absolutely have to have it, which is not very often actually......I wish it was not the way it is...I want one myself, but no way......not anymore.......Just a set of injectors is $4000.00, minimum......a wear item...very common......really? How bad do I need a diesel? ...not that bad
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:58 PM   #43
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Toward the theory of a fuel tank sitting for a long time as a good source of water collection, I am struggling with the physics of that. Point is (and am not looking to insult anybody) that I am not aware of *anybody* who keeps their fuel tank 100% full, 100% of the time. Put another way, pretty much all fuel tanks are at some stage of empty even when the vehicle / equipment gets regular use; also, they are exposed to the same conditions as the one that sits. So, am not seeing where over time the vehicle that sits collects any more water in its fuel tank than the one that gets frequent use. Am sure that some will find the need to argue this point with a rare example, but data is not backing this as a wide spread risk or issue.
No anecdotes here. The bigger issue is a diesel fuel tank that is in use, and is kept on the low side. This is due to condensation.

Modern diesels return a significant portion of the fuel to the tank, so the fuel heats up, and does so more so if the tank is low since there is less fuel to heat.

The fuel in the tank goes through heating and cooling cycles each time the vehicle is used. The fuel expands and contracts. With gasoline, the vapour pressure means that there are gas fumes above the fuel. Diesel fuel doesn’t have the same vapour pressure, so the tank gets air drawn into it upon cooling. That air is the source of the moisture.

You can also get water in the fuel from diesel fuel production, transport, and fuel station storage, but the condensation is the one that differs most from a gasoline vehicle.

Now that many gasoline engines are direct injection, the same risk of damage exists due to water in the fuel, and the consequent lack of lubrication provided to the injectors and pump. However, gas tanks don’t have the same issues with water collection as diesel tanks due to the vapour pressure difference.

The data is easy to find. Start by looking at how many gasoline vehicles come with a recommendation for a water separator. Diesel vehicles have long used water separators. With the advent of higher injection pressures and the related higher failure rates, compounded by higher repair costs, we are commonly seeing diesel vehicles with multiple water separators.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:23 PM   #44
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All good info. I have owned and towed with two GM 6.2s and two Duramax 6.6s about 500,000 miles all total since 1982. I always change oil filters and fuel filters at the recommended interval. I have never experienced any injector problems and only one glow plug in all those years. I have on some of the vehicles used Racor and now FASS filtering systems. I have not noticed water, but I have been shutdown from biodiesel. Hence the FASS system. I added the heater and pressure gauge to the present truck's FASS filter to avoid bio stoppage. In the central part of the US it is getting hard to find non biodiesel especially on the road at truck stops. That was my reason for the FASS system. It really does make the engine idle and run smoother. On my next truck I will instal a FASS filter when I take delivery. Clean fuel and synthetic oil will go along way towards lasting engine life. On the injection pumps, my engine tech says he would not replace a GM pump with another GM only Bosch. That tells me what to do if the need arises.
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Old 12-07-2019, 05:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
For those that remember, the old Ford 7.3 was an example of a good diesel engine.....

Tons of torque, noisy, only about 250 hp, and with good care, would easily run 450-600,000 miles.....

Now they have ruined them and they are junk.
I owned one for 14 years and 187,000 miles....250hp? Lol....owned 2 rams with 6.7 cumalong...I would never go back...never...I also havenít had any problems with either one...nada...it is a known fact the 7.3 will loose a head gasket on the right side at about 200,000 miles..junk...
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:04 AM   #46
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All good info. I have owned and towed with two GM 6.2s and two Duramax 6.6s about 500,000 miles all total since 1982. I always change oil filters and fuel filters at the recommended interval. I have never experienced any injector problems and only one glow plug in all those years. I have on some of the vehicles used Racor and now FASS filtering systems. I have not noticed water, but I have been shutdown from biodiesel. Hence the FASS system. I added the heater and pressure gauge to the present truck's FASS filter to avoid bio stoppage. In the central part of the US it is getting hard to find non biodiesel especially on the road at truck stops. That was my reason for the FASS system. It really does make the engine idle and run smoother. On my next truck I will instal a FASS filter when I take delivery. Clean fuel and synthetic oil will go along way towards lasting engine life. On the injection pumps, my engine tech says he would not replace a GM pump with another GM only Bosch. That tells me what to do if the need arises.
guskmg
......1.4 million miles...275,000 gallons of fuel....stock fuel filter...changed every 40,000 miles....never any problems...I have seen many aftermarket brands removed at the dealer because of fuel restrictions....low hp...and my injectors are original..what does that tell you...?
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:46 AM   #47
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Dodge dealership repair cost of the fuel system if you run it out of fuel, put gasoline in it, or foul it up with water in the fuel, is $7,500. And that price does not include injectors or any possible engine damage.

Note this is a risk, not a sunk cost. It should not happen. But it can and sometimes does.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:03 AM   #48
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I owned one for 14 years and 187,000 miles....250hp? Lol....owned 2 rams with 6.7 cumalong...I would never go back...never...I also havenít had any problems with either one...nada...it is a known fact the 7.3 will loose a head gasket on the right side at about 200,000 miles..junk...
cummins schummins......my brother has one of those things.....great except when its broke down......and the dodge truck is pure garbage....
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:07 AM   #49
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Dodge dealership repair cost of the fuel system if you run it out of fuel, put gasoline in it, or foul it up with water in the fuel, is $7,500. And that price does not include injectors or any possible engine damage.

Note this is a risk, not a sunk cost. It should not happen. But it can and sometimes does.
add $4000 for new injectors.......crazy liability.....
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:29 AM   #50
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I had a 99 F350 7.3 for 16 years and loved it. 235 hp and 500 lbs I recall. New diesel performance is awesome but at a premium and very complex. My 15 F150 5.0 has been very good for our 25FC except descents in the high mountains where I must use 1st or 2nd gears. 3.31 rear end not the best from this aspect but fuel economy very good. 22,000 miles towing and 45,000 overall so far. Truckís payload is 2031 but could use more. So, considering Fordís new gas 7.3 250 or 350 with 10 spd trans and 3.73 or lower gearing. Will hold off until there is some history or data on this engine/trans combo maybe by spring. $1700 option vs $9 or 10k for diesel. How much torque do you really need for a 10k lb. or less AS ?
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:25 AM   #51
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Totally agree.....I have had 65 diesel tractors, and never once had a failure due to water.....Now maybe it would not start if there was a lot of water in a filter, but never an engine failure...never.
Yup,

The driver before firing it up drained the water separator then after air pressure built up drained the water from the brake system. Until then the truck didn't move.
On the preflight check list on small plains item one is draining the water from the wing tanks sump.
With modern diesels it is even easier because the system alerts you to water in the fuel. Dummy proof.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:15 AM   #52
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......1.4 million miles...275,000 gallons of fuel....stock fuel filter...changed every 40,000 miles....never any problems...I have seen many aftermarket brands removed at the dealer because of fuel restrictions....low hp...and my injectors are original..what does that tell you...?
So, 5 mpg and 1.4 m miles sounds like your Cat 3406. Probably a 3406 E, the first electronic Cat diesel. Fantastic engine. However, it was pre-emission controls, no common rail, relatively low injection pressures, and in no way relevant to a discussion of a late model light duty diesel as installed in a pickup. It used technology similar to the Ford 7.3 in terms of the fuel system.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:58 AM   #53
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I was at my dealer and we are very good friends, I told he we are looking hard at a dually diesel and he brought something to my attention with a work order they just completed.

He showed me a bill, I kid you not, the final total was $12,700 & change (visually saw the end line item). The cause, water in the fuel tank that damaged the fuel pump forcing new fuel lines (pieces & stems throughout feed and return lines), all new injectors (shrapnel damaged from pieces). $135/hr and around 50 hours, 6k in labor, the rest of the cost were parts he mentioned. Granted this was the dealer, but at that level of damage, it makes sense to me that a dealer vs. a private shop do that type of repair....IMO.

He said the root cause was "water" in the tank which water is a friction component and not a lubricant as diesel itself is and that it damaged the components and it systematically damaged the truck.

The odometer was 106k and out of warranty.

So my questions stem from.......how does this even happen? He said, have you ever seen a gas station squeegee attendant the concrete around the tanks? I said yeah......well I guess that how it happens and you really have no control over where and when you have it happen to you.

Those of you that own diesels, does this concern you? Is this a common occurrence? Do people really spend this much to repair the truck as it probably is only at 1/4 of its life expectancy?

We have been looking hard at diesels for our next TV and this really gives me pause.

Where do you folks stand on this type of thing? Seen it? Done it? >>> Keep the truck? Scrap it?

Thx
Chris
...........where was the above mentioned getting his fuel? Maybe from a steel above ground tank? Or worse...
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:15 PM   #54
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So, 5 mpg and 1.4 m miles sounds like your Cat 3406. Probably a 3406 E, the first electronic Cat diesel. Fantastic engine. However, it was pre-emission controls, no common rail, relatively low injection pressures, and in no way relevant to a discussion of a late model light duty diesel as installed in a pickup. It used technology similar to the Ford 7.3 in terms of the fuel system.
..yes it is common rail..per say....and overhead cam....computerized injectors...ever hear who owned the ford injectors?...
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:16 PM   #55
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..yes it is common rail..per say....and overhead cam....computerized injectors...ever hear who owned the ford injectors?...
The 3406E didnít use a common rail fuel system per se, it used hydraulic electronic unit injectors (HEUI), that is where the high pressure was created. The fuel line to the HEUI injectors ran at low pressure (less than 100 psi). Common rail generally refers to a high pressure rail.

The Ford, Cat and other injectors you are referring to were built by Navistar and Cat among others, under Cat and Navistar patents. Lots of others were made by Bosch, Siemens, etc.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:22 PM   #56
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No anecdotes here. The bigger issue is a diesel fuel tank that is in use, and is kept on the low side. This is due to condensation.

Modern diesels return a significant portion of the fuel to the tank, so the fuel heats up, and does so more so if the tank is low since there is less fuel to heat.

The fuel in the tank goes through heating and cooling cycles each time the vehicle is used. The fuel expands and contracts. With gasoline, the vapour pressure means that there are gas fumes above the fuel. Diesel fuel doesnít have the same vapour pressure, so the tank gets air drawn into it upon cooling. That air is the source of the moisture.

You can also get water in the fuel from diesel fuel production, transport, and fuel station storage, but the condensation is the one that differs most from a gasoline vehicle.

Now that many gasoline engines are direct injection, the same risk of damage exists due to water in the fuel, and the consequent lack of lubrication provided to the injectors and pump. However, gas tanks donít have the same issues with water collection as diesel tanks due to the vapour pressure difference.

The data is easy to find. Start by looking at how many gasoline vehicles come with a recommendation for a water separator. Diesel vehicles have long used water separators. With the advent of higher injection pressures and the related higher failure rates, compounded by higher repair costs, we are commonly seeing diesel vehicles with multiple water separators.
Jay; the description from jcl demonstrates how water vapor gets there. It does so in gas engines as well but not as bad. However, the main question I think you were asking is "what does being full or empty have to do with it". The basic idea is that if the tank is nearly full there is only a small amount of air above it (and thus only a small amount of potential water vapor), but if it is 3/4 empty there is a lot more space for air and water vapor. Thus, more potential issue when mostly empty. I hope that helps.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:23 PM   #57
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There was an article in Trailer Life a few months ago on this very subject. The problem with certain models of fuel pumps is real, and the article was about how to replace it.

As I recall, the cost to repair was in the 10k range, if you can do it yourself.

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Old 12-07-2019, 01:23 PM   #58
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Toward the theory of a fuel tank sitting for a long time as a good source of water collection, I am struggling with the physics of that. Point is (and am not looking to insult anybody) that I am not aware of *anybody* who keeps their fuel tank 100% full, 100% of the time. Put another way, pretty much all fuel tanks are at some stage of empty even when the vehicle / equipment gets regular use; also, they are exposed to the same conditions as the one that sits. So, am not seeing where over time the vehicle that sits collects any more water in its fuel tank than the one that gets frequent use. Am sure that some will find the need to argue this point with a rare example, but data is not backing this as a wide spread risk or issue.
Jay; the description from jcl demonstrates how water vapor gets there. It does so in gas engines as well but not as bad. However, the main question I think you were asking is "what does being full or empty have to do with it". The basic idea is that if the tank is nearly full there is only a small amount of air above it (and thus only a small amount of potential water vapor), but if it is 3/4 empty there is a lot more space for air and water vapor. Thus, more potential issue when mostly empty. I hope that helps.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:31 PM   #59
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I cant count the number of stories I have heard
Exactly, stories, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
They have to go get another truck, because they have to have a truck, and they then have two truck payments, only, one of them, is total junk, and not worth repairing.......happens all the time.
All the time? Odd that I've never once seen it.

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Originally Posted by mkcurtiss View Post
.Just a set of injectors is $4000.00,
That's either hyperbole or you need to learn to shop around. Brand new Bosch injectors, $2,000. But then I only have 210,000 on my originals and they are performing flawlessly so no need to go there.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:59 PM   #60
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Here is the link to the Trailer Life article. Cost is less than I remembered, but still significant.

www.trailerlife.com/tech/diesel-heart-transplant

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