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Old 07-13-2020, 11:34 AM   #1
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Chicken or Egg? Trailer or Tow Vehicle? FIRST?

Reading posts about the Honda Pilot for a Tow Vehicle on www.piloteers.org are even more interesting than those on ANY Tow Vehicle TOWING ANY Airstream of the Airforums, kind of conversations.

My first trailer I had a 2006 4.7L Toyota Tundra (last of the small Tundra's). I managed to tow a 23 foot Safari. A good comparison between a Pilot and undersized Tundra. I needed a Double Axle Airstream... the 23 was the shortest on the LOT.

Experience can give a driver options in situations that are not the best combination...

Later a 2008, greast for a 23 foot and later a 2012 Tundra 5.7L Crew Cab pickup towing 25 foot Airstreams. Close to overweight, but managed. The experienced Tow Driver approach. A Newbie... would not understand... but will some day.

Best Option:
Select the TRAILER First.
Then find the appropriate Tow Vehicle.

If you have enough money you can purchase a Ferrari testarossa.
This does not make you a competent driver of a Ferrari testarossa.
Some, not all, take possession and... total it. Wham Bam... next.

A NEWBIE drives a vehicle that fits his daily needs and then wants to purchase an Airstream, for example, that fits his... FAMILY. A bad situation with the Trailer inappropriate in combination with the Daily Driven Vehicle.

Start somewhere with a vehicle and Airstream you can afford and match up with towing capacity of 20% or more in excess of a Fully Loaded Tow Vehicle and Airstream. Not the make believe that MY WATER weighs less than Your Water when towing calculations. Water... is heavy.

Which weighs more? A pound of Feathers or a pound of Water?

Which weighs more? A pound of Water or a pound of Ice?

These other Forums offer some great insight. It was refreshing and to the point.

Pushing the Limit... is a choice. Maybe a poor choice at that. Having others say they have not any issues in bad match ups between Tow Vehicle and Trailer choice is irresponsible. They fudge with some Hitch to make the 'numbers work'. Back to feathers and water...

I found the F350 towed my 25 foot International better than the 2012 Tundra.
I found the F350 tows my 27 foot International with more to handle 30 feet!

Water and Ice each weigh 8.34 pounds per gallon. Using Volume... Ice weighs less than liquid water. That is why ICE Floats. No Sh*t.

If you want to tow an Airstream with YOUR vehicle... go to the websites that discuss ONLY your vehicle. Like one guy said, among others:

Post #6 Piloteers.org- Towing Capacities - Towing a Trailer: "The towing 8K with a Pilot, shear STUPID, irresponsible to the other drivers on the road and a good atty would own everything he has if in a serious wreck."
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:38 AM   #2
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Trailer.
At least be ready to buy a known trailer.
You can be researching Auto Trader online to know the market.
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Old 07-13-2020, 02:33 PM   #3
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Buy Airstream First, Then Tow Vehicle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
Trailer.
At least be ready to buy a known trailer.
You can be researching Auto Trader online to know the market.
******
A True Story:

Our 2006 23 foot Safari was our FIRST Trailer. It was what we could afford in 2006. We had a 1994 Land Cruiser and a 2000 Land Cruiser. A Land Cruiser was not going to be a viable tow vehicle, sold the 1994 Land Cruiser with 248,000 miles and purchased a new 2006 Tundra 4x4.

I have owned Land Cruisers since 1998. Resale is excellent, I must say.

The 2006 Tundra was just big enough, but an 'even money gamble'. Towed well and never had a mechanical problem or complaint. Just carried... less stuff.

After the 2006, we learned... BUY the Trailer First and then the Tow Vehicle.

The 25 foot matched well with the 2008 and 2014 Tundra's 4x4 5.7L. Again, just big enough but managed.

The F350 Diesel 4x4 Towed the 25 like a toy. Any speed. Any GRADE Up or Down... Mountains, High Elevation... Thus the current 27 foot.

When we sell, the trailer's were 100%. Buyer's could look and see they looked just as shiny as a NEW Airstream.

This is now my point. Find a USED 100% Airstream First. Some people take them out for a few weeks a year for five years and the depreciation works for YOU. The Buyer. We asked a premium and got it. Junk is out there. Nice well maintained Airstreams you will notice immediately. They look... like new and have very little wear. If stored in their own RV Garage... WOW I say.

A SMART Buyer gets the nicest, cleanest 100% operating Airstream you can physically see the interior and exterior, for far less than new. Then add anything you want, afterwards.

Many owners are bashful and as a Dealer to sell their trailer. They do not like dealing with people. YOU want to deal with the owner, if you can find one you like. There are bargains out there that are ten years old and like unused.

Like those I sold. Now my selling prices seem cheap, but new prices keep creeping up.

Call RV Storage parks if they know if anyone is selling their Airstream, or if there are some if they could your telephone number. A death in the family forces things to happen and quickly. It is good both for seller and buyer.

I avoid RV Dealer's as they do not have time to check out what they have for sale used. The owner's know all the details. I sure did when I showed a buyer our trailer, or tow vehicle or bicycles we no longer used.

Study Highs and Lows. Never buy unseen. Ever... sucker. Find someone local who knows Airstreams. Often they are happy to help you out.

Happy hunting. Obviously no one seems interested in advice. That does not hurt my feelings... but when you get way over your head on a wreck in gift wrap... reread some threads on the Forum.

USED Airstream... NEW Tow Vehicle. Happy, happy and happy for years!!!
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:09 PM   #4
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Definitely trailer. You buy the trailer, then you buy enough truck. You are not limited by the first purchase. If you buy the truck first, then you are limited to just trailers that it is capable of hauling safely. (Stopping safely.)
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:46 PM   #5
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My Airstream dealer suggested trailer first, some of the motivation may have been selfish but the concept he shared was sound. Applying for a loan for the RV first when your credit score was untampered with an additional car loan might be more beneficial in the long term. In our case we purchased the AS first, got a very competitive rate and then headed to the Ford dealer and got a 0% loan to purchase the TV.
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Old 07-13-2020, 09:04 PM   #6
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We did the controversial "other method".

Make the trailer fit the tow vehicle!

We bought our truck at the end of last year and in the spring we decided to move to a bigger trailer with a place to sit when the weather was bad. Our little Camplite was just too small.

We started looking at Airstream due to the aluminum construction and our Camplite was aluminum which helped us to see the advantages of the lighter materials, We also liked the looks of them.

We ventured out to our local Airstream dealer who had a few smaller used FC's and a used Caravel, we also looked at a 16' Sport. The dealer did nothing to help us other than to say than we had better hurry and buy before the new trailers get here and they will be 40% more money!

We left disgusted and thought we had made a mistake even considering Airstream. Then we contacted the other dealer in our Province and found the 2019 Sport (new old stock) so we put a deposit down to hold it and a few weeks later drove half a day to get it, and do all the transfer stuff etc...

The dealer did tell us the our truck would make a perfect tow vehicle for the 22FB. Now that we have taken it out 4 times, We are feeling much better about the match now.

What we did find is that there were so many differing opinions when we first joined Airforums so we started to wonder if we did this wrong!

I think we did do this wrong in that we bought the trailer to fit the truck, but since joining this group, we are more prepared to deal with the next step in our trailering experiences.

We really appreciate the help and support that has come our way from all of you steamers and look forward to great experiences, now that we got the truck and trailer questions out of the way
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:56 PM   #7
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Tow vehicle first.

Hi, we studied long and hard before we decided that a 25' Airstream Safari would be our perfect trailer for life. And we decided that our perfect tow vehicle would be a Lincoln Navigator. So we searched for nice barely used Navigator. And eventually found one. After all, if I buy a trailer, I need something to tow it home with.

We towed our trailer with the 2000 Navigator for over ten years and then bought a brand new 2014 F-150.

After 15 years, we still have the same trailer, same hitch, and both tow vehicles. Only the Lincoln was retired from towing duty.
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Old 07-14-2020, 07:21 AM   #8
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Our first AS was a 2019 Nest and it morphed into a trade for our current 2020 25ft. FC FB.
We started towing it with a fantastic Tundra 5.7 4x4. In the mountains of TN and NC it had to work to do the job at times and on some downhill hairpins, it got pushed a bit by the trailer.
This made me realize that to tackle CO, and other mountainous states we gravitate to, a new TV should be considered.
As luck would have it a forum member who had just sold his AS, was seeking a trade for a 1/2 ton pickup, for his Ram 2500 Cummins.
We made that trade and the difference in the towing experience can’t be over emphasized. It’s a true towing vehicle part timing as a pleasure truck, not a pleasure truck being cast into the role of a tow vehicle.
Many of those who are trying to put the square peg into the round hole of towing need to pay attention to those on the forum cautioning you to not try to “get by” with a pleasure vehicle connected to a 6K pound trailer.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:38 AM   #9
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I 'sorta followed' a Thread concerning a Pilot towing an Airstream. It is still active. There is also a Forum for Pilot owners towing trailers. The Pilot Forum was not... favorable nor positive for trailer options, other than small. One person tows a 25 foot Airstream, on this Forum, with a Pilot. A magician, of sorts to make rabbits appear out of a hat?

The Pilot vehicle owners obviously did not bother to go to the Pilot Forum concerning towing trailers. Had anyone... they would have come to a different conversation. PILOT owners have a Forum, too. Read it.

Good luck, I say once you are not on a Flat, Level Highway. We saw a rolled trailer in Utah last month. It was being pulled by a white pickup and the 'retro' trailer had these 'wings' on the left and right rear sides. Cool. I watched them heading south, it appeared to be a great combination and watched the six to ten seconds as they moved on.

We were in the process of locking up the Airstream, load and lock we call it... and left to the South about an hour and half later. After and hour and a half later, we saw a commotion of flat bed truck winching something out of the ditch... it was this trailer. A roll over. This new trailer was beyond repair. No pickup was spotted.

It made me think about the Pilot towing a 25 foot Airstream. This is not the time to test your brakes or your tow vehicle's ability to maintain control. This was the trip where my SunDisk, new... did not store our three weeks of photos. (These photos would have been life changing for naysayers on tow vehicle and trailer combos!) Had you seen this nice looking retro trailer totally trashed beyond imagination... your thought process changes.

We towed about 8,000 miles this Spring and Summer... and leaving this week for another long Boondocking trip enjoying the back country.

When we pass 'combos' on the Interstate, Nancy looks at the hitch and how the combination is working. Some... disasters in waiting. Try it. You will understand.

Be careful and also be very weary of a tow vehicle and trailer combinations, with the rear end of the tow vehicle down, the front of the trailer down and a sense that the 50 mph is a clue something is not right. The Interstate has many examples and easily avoided. The two lanes out in the mountains... will open your eyes to those having no clue other than... driving slow is good.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:51 AM   #10
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Bought truck first. I knew what I wanted and was prepared to drive a certain distance to get it. I didn’t want the hassle or difficulty getting the AS home and wanted to jump on a deal if one popped up. I had a SUV already but knew that wasn’t going to be sufficient. Timing is everything. Found a 2 year old Ram 2500 diesel with low miles and still under warranty. Shortly after that found a gently used one owner AS that was exactly what I was looking for 5 hours away. Made the deal over the phone contingent on satisfactory inspection, jumped in the truck and drove it home. Just have to know what you want and be prepared to act quickly. I’m amazed I did this because I usually research things to death and it takes me forever to decide especially on big ticket items like these. So far no regrets.
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Old 07-14-2020, 10:23 AM   #11
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Short answer and personal experience: Trailer First. I rent a TV.
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Old 07-14-2020, 10:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
I 'sorta followed' a Thread concerning a Pilot towing an Airstream. It is still active. There is also a Forum for Pilot owners towing trailers. The Pilot Forum was not... favorable nor positive for trailer options, other than small. One person tows a 25 foot Airstream, on this Forum, with a Pilot. A magician, of sorts to make rabbits appear out of a hat?

The Pilot vehicle owners obviously did not bother to go to the Pilot Forum concerning towing trailers. Had anyone... they would have come to a different conversation. PILOT owners have a Forum, too. Read it.

Good luck, I say once you are not on a Flat, Level Highway. We saw a rolled trailer in Utah last month. It was being pulled by a white pickup and the 'retro' trailer had these 'wings' on the left and right rear sides. Cool. I watched them heading south, it appeared to be a great combination and watched the six to ten seconds as they moved on.

We were in the process of locking up the Airstream, load and lock we call it... and left to the South about an hour and half later. After and hour and a half later, we saw a commotion of flat bed truck winching something out of the ditch... it was this trailer. A roll over. This new trailer was beyond repair. No pickup was spotted.

It made me think about the Pilot towing a 25 foot Airstream. This is not the time to test your brakes or your tow vehicle's ability to maintain control. This was the trip where my SunDisk, new... did not store our three weeks of photos. Had you seen this nice looking retro trailer totally trashed beyond imagination... your thought process changes.

We towed about 8,000 miles this Spring and Summer... and leaving this week for another long Boondocking trip enjoying the back country.

Be careful and also be very weary of a tow vehicle and trailer combination with the rear end of the tow vehicle down, the front of the trailer down and a sense that the 50 mph is a clue something is not right. The Interstate has many examples and easily avoided. The two lanes out in the mountains... will open your eyes to those having no clue other than... driving slow is good.
I do think there are Airstream models that work well with the SUV's and Little Trucks (like mine (I created a new category)) The single axle lineup is (until this year) quite towable.

The main reason a new or perspective Airstream owner would venture onto the Airforums is to get the real details on how these trailers can fit with their situation. This info can't be found in brochures or on Ridgeline/Pilot forums as the info there is very limited. It is real world experiences that only you and other streamers can offer.

On paper, many of the "Can my TV pull this Trailer" questions seem quite doable but when you speak to AS owners, you quickly find out that 700 lbs. TW in print really means 1,050 lbs in actuality. So now that rig they have ordered and paid for doesn't work! They never would have found this out without venturing onto this forum.

With Airstream's move towards heavier trailers, they are also driving the safety margins down, if they are appealing to the SUV/Little Truck market segment.

A 25FC from 10 years ago would be lighter than a new 25FC. It may be that these potential Airstream owners look in the used market to find a better match.

Just think that whenever some advice is given, bad or good, it will potentially help a newbie make a better decision with safety in mind!

Then there are the people out there that just enjoy the ribbing - like me
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Old 07-14-2020, 10:40 AM   #13
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Hi

Don't buy either one first

First do your homework and check the available funds. Then do some more homework. Derate the TV by 20%. Understand the likely *real* tongue weight of a loaded trailer. Shake your head and do some more homework.

This can be tiring. It also will be expensive. I started out with a Honda Pilot, hoping it might work as a tow vehicle. The F-250 (with max springs etc....) is the result of that not being the case.

The point is that you want to be *sure* you can complete the process before you start on any of it. There are a *ton* of threads from folks who have half a setup and now realize they can't complete the set. You want to have a safe / comfortable / derated setup. Nothing should be on the edge / over the edge. People talk themselves into bad situations all the time. Don't be one of those folks......

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Old 07-14-2020, 10:45 AM   #14
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Trailer first.

Personal experience: We decided we wanted a trailer for weekend trips, we had a Caravel 16 in mind and at the time we had a BMW M3 and and a M550i. So we traded the 3 for an X5, but then we fell in love with the FC 23 FB. The X5 tows our FC 23fb like a champ. But........ Now I want bring bikes and kayaks and a generator and fishing gear and...... all that added up becomes a little too much for the X5. So by the weekend we will have a X5, a M550i, and an F150 Max Tow.

Would have saved myself the acquisition of an X5 had I went trailer first.
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Old 07-14-2020, 02:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewk View Post
Trailer first.

Personal experience: We decided we wanted a trailer for weekend trips, we had a Caravel 16 in mind and at the time we had a BMW M3 and and a M550i. So we traded the 3 for an X5, but then we fell in love with the FC 23 FB. The X5 tows our FC 23fb like a champ. But........ Now I want bring bikes and kayaks and a generator and fishing gear and...... all that added up becomes a little too much for the X5. So by the weekend we will have a X5, a M550i, and an F150 Max Tow.

Would have saved myself the acquisition of an X5 had I went trailer first.
I would see myself keeping the "M" and carry the extra stuff in it! Then you can keep the X5 and have both vehicles at the camp site

You have me thinking now about a support vehicle for the purpose of carrying the extra cargo. I can use my i3 for the folding chairs, water and food.

That way we would have two eggs (perhaps cornish game hen sized) but still counts as two!

When cycling long distances, we would have a support vehicle to carry our stuff because we couldn't carry it on our bikes. Could this be the solution that we have been waiting for?
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Old 07-14-2020, 05:43 PM   #16
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Buy the trailer first, then buy a TV that can tow a trailer about two sizes up from what you just bought because if it's your first, you will probably scale up in a couple of years. :-)
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Old 07-14-2020, 08:36 PM   #17
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Buy the trailer first, then buy a TV that can tow a trailer about two sizes up from what you just bought because if it's your first, you will probably scale up in a couple of years. :-)
This ^^^^^^^^^^^ is the best advice so far in this thread.
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:22 AM   #18
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If you buy the trailer first you can always find a tow vehicle to pull it (at a price, of course). If you buy the tow vehicle first (or already have one) then you have to get a trailer that it can handle.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:45 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BandLAir View Post
If you buy the trailer first you can always find a tow vehicle to pull it (at a price, of course). If you buy the tow vehicle first (or already have one) then you have to get a trailer that it can handle.
Hi

There are a lot of threads around here that demonstrate people still get in trouble this way.

1) I need the TV (for my new 33' trailer) as a daily driver to park in tight parking spaces.

2) The TV needs to fit in the garage along with all my other "stuff".....

3) I spent the entire budget on the giant trailer and now need to find a good condition TV for < $3,000 .....

4) I have 8 kids (with bikes ...) and 4 dogs. I need a TV that will accommodate them, their bikes, and my (new) 33' trailer ....

Yes, it goes on and on spiraling off into even more unreachable goals.

Bob
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:46 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by BandLAir View Post
If you buy the trailer first you can always find a tow vehicle to pull it (at a price, of course). If you buy the tow vehicle first (or already have one) then you have to get a trailer that it can handle.
Just buy a 3/4 ton diesel truck and it doesn’t matter what size AS you get. You will always have plenty of truck rather than “just enough” truck.
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