Changes in HD Truck Market

[fastrob]

Originally Posted by BillTex

.......
We can assume your truck has done some serious tow duty-have you weighed both axles? Perhaps the front end is being overloaded by your WD setup?Something is not right if you have done front end work every year…

Bill,
Went to a front end guy the other day. He said that for some reason the later American Independent Front Suspension (IFS) all have the same problem with the front end. He said the Japanese: Honda, Toyota, Nissan do not have the same issues. That is one frustrating point. The GM is the best truck for the money. I make my Buffalos (nickles) cry I squeeze them so hard.. The rural roads in Maine are like a third world country. The truck just has so many design and manufacturing flaws I want to scream. A poor analogy is the sweetest, most beautiful woman that drinks, does drugs and runs around. She is great fun but in the long term a big problem.
Thanks for your point of view.
Rob

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by fastrob

Bill,
Went to a front end guy the other day. He said that for some reason the later American Independent Front Suspension (IFS) all have the same problem with the front end.

I must have bought the only 5 GM trucks with good front ends...guess I got lucky!

[Frank S]

Hi fastrob--I've had 10 Chevy full size window vans, and 11 1/2 ton Suburbans, one with 146K miles, and never had a problem with front ends, engines, transmissions, or differentials. What kind of "Maine-e-ak" roads do you have up there in the north east???--Frank S

[fastrob]

Originally Posted by Frank S

Hi fastrob--I've had 10 Chevy full size window vans, and 11 1/2 ton Suburbans, one with 146K miles, and never had a problem with front ends, engines, transmissions, or differentials. What kind of "Maine-e-ak" roads do you have up there in the north east???--Frank S

Frank,
Granted I should have a 3/4 or 1 ton for farm work. My driveway is 1/4 mile off a dirt road that periodically washes out. Let me say this; the 4.8l v8 is great and the 4 door extended cab holds the family. Although, the children would rather ride in the wife's Corolla because there is more leg room in her car.
GM used to have drum brakes in the rear then they went to discs, new (06) trucks have drums in the rear. I have used up 2 sets of rear disc pads and the front are still good. Who puts discs in the rear to get dirty and wear out?
It would be great to be a gentleman Airstreamer that did not have to move 6' snow banks, haul stuff or deliver firewood, but that is not us, not yet anyway.
The 4 wheeler magazines say the Independent Front Suspensions (IFS) with 4 wheel drive are junk and I agree. The old solid axle front suspension does not ride as well but is tougher. The manufacturers now make trucks that ride like a car. The Japanese either by design, materials or both are making a product that the American manufacturers used to make, a small, affordable work truck.
The domestic industry seems to have lost the experience, ingenuity or manufacturing expertise to build a quality product. Americans will suffer for it.
I would love to have a Chevy Colorado (tows 4,000) but if you read up on them the unit has a bad repair history. Toyota Tacoma, same size engine will haul 6,000 lbs and does not have a bad repair history. That is one reason Toyota is kicking butt in the US. Toyota cannot hang a big snow plow off them, yet. Soon they will.
Will GM or Ford or Dodge make a small, cheap, tough work truck like they used to make? Or are they going to continue to lose market share and jobs to someone who will?
R

[Silvertwinkie]

I think it's great that Toyota and Nissan are even considering getting into the truck markets. I strongly feel that the iron horses coming off the domestic lines are far better than they were say even 5 years ago. It's the Toyotas and Nissans that are to thank for that. Take a look at the new Suburbans, Tahoes, Avalanches, Silverados and Ford F series. The interiors are no longer plastic and cheap looking. The mechanicals have been improved upon and the fit and finish is second to none.....all a result of competition.

I say let Toyota and Nissan bring it on whenever they can. It would be about time. Their current offerings are lacking and more of a glorified 1/2 ton with 3/4 specs on paper only.

Now that Ford is in the #3 spot, makes me wonder if we'll ever see Ford and GM merge.

[Frank S]

Hi fastrob--Lost the emergency/parking brake on my 2001 Suburban with disc brakes. Dealer service mgr, who I've known for many years, explained that it is now referred to only as a parking brake. It is a small pad, that as I understand it presses against the rotor, which will hold for parking, but not for an emergency stop. One short drive away by my grandaughter with the brake on, completely distroyed the pad. $200 for dealer repair. I agree with you rear drums are better.

As far as a good, inexpensive, tough, work truck is concerned the big three still make them, but you hardly ever see them. They are "Plain Jane" 1/2 ton, with the smallest engine, smallest bed, and a standard transmission, which I believe is a better value than any of the "toy trucks". You can also get a "Plain Jane" 3/4 ton for a little more money to hang your snow plow on.

The Toyotas and Nissans get a lot of great press, but real life performance is better described by real users. Go to any of their forums, and you will see they are having problems with their trucks too.--Frank S

[Frank S]

Hi Silvertwinkie--I don't think Ford and GM will ever merge, but Ford could merge with an off shore auto co. There is no advantage to GM to merge with anyone, as they are big enough, and spread out in foreign markets enough to stand alone. What GM needs to do is refocus on making good vehicles people want, which they strayed away from. They are on the right track, and if they can make and implement half as many good decisions, as they made bad decisions in the bast 30 years, they will be OK.

Missed your sage comments over the past few months. Hope you were OK.--Frank S

[Pick]

I have been buying GM pickup trucks since High School in 1973. I can honestly say, I have had excellent service out of all of mine. My current 2003 has only been to the dealer for recalls on the tailgate straps and fuel filter. My 2000 and 1998 pickups never saw the dealer after leaving the sales lot. Just front disk brake service at normal intervals. I did have a warranty claim on my 1990 truck, a blown head gasket on the 305 V-8. Other than that, my GM trucks have been a real pleasure to own and drive.

[bhayden]

The foreign vs. domestic issue is so blurred I can't see buying Ford, GM or Mopar-Benz just because they carry an American marque. When imports first started to take off in the US the perception was the quality was far superior than what Union works were building in the US. While, to my knowledge the "foreign vehicles" built in the US are still not union labor they dispell the myth that American workers can't produce quality work. Likewise the offerings from "the Big Three" are also much improved in quality and design.

The single largest issue they still have to deal with is the huge commitment to pension funds that have been promised. If Ford controlled Mazda builds trucks in the US they don't have to factor in the cost of funding these pension plans into the profit per truck. It may not seem fair but the only way there will ever be a level playing field is if the government steps in; and that's a slippery slope I'm not sure I'd want tackle even with AWD!

-Bernie

[classic67]

A good friend of mine owns a 2005 Toyota Tundra V8 extra-cab. He uses it for a short commute to work and for pulling a trailer of 2 ATV's that he uses on the weekends. Now that's hardly any weight for his truck to pull around, nonetheless he is battling Toyota over a transmission failure. The truck has 13k miles on it (well within the bumper to bumper warranty). He's been without his truck since about the end of August as it sits untouched in the Toyota lot. He tells me Toyota N.A. refuses to honor the warranty becuase they assert he did not follow the towing recomendations and hence, voided the warranty. My reaction was "huh?". He has since hired an attorney to handle his claim and last I knew he has a court date around mid November.

If Toyota is going to get into the Heavy Duty truck business, they better not replicate what they are doing with my friend or they'll have alot of court dates and won't have to worry about Market share.

As a side note, I owned a new 1987 Toyota light duty 4cyl 4x4 pickup and had 90k trouble-free miles (except for a bad relay in a switch circuit). Albeit, I never towed anything with it....

[bhayden]

What is Toyota saying violated the towing recommendations? And how do they know they were vioated?

[BillTex]

I am not sure what the point of some of these responses has been. Trolling? There is a lot of contradiction in some of them. OK-I’ll bite! None of the smaller trucks, regardless of Mfr, is suitable for towing an AS, or any TT for that matter. Could they pull it? Sure. Would you want to travel like that? Not really…don’t think you could plow through a six foot deep snow bank with any of those either, or haul a lot of hay bales, horse manure, etc.
Unlike some other forums, there appears to be a pretty strong allegiance to American made products here; Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and oh yeah; Airstreams! Lots of us ended up here because we wanted to own a piece of Americana (AS) and want American made trucks, and vintage vehicles, for towing them. Not saying some folks don’t tow AS with foreign trucks-they do. And some are happy with the performance. But I will challenge anyone to this; hook up any TT to a foreign truck, then hook it up to a ¾ ton (American made!) truck and let me know which one you want to travel with. I am not saying the foreigners don’t make a good car, they do, but they are no better than what we make here in the good old USA. Do you like 55 Chevy’s? 63 split window Vettes? How about a nice 58 Corolla? Yeah, I’ve never seen one either. I for one, get sick and tired of people bashing American products and blindly accepting the mythical “perception of quality” of foreign vehicles when they probably haven’t been on a US made car lot in 15 years. Some folks don’t realize how much of our economy revolves around the auto industry. Yeah, the foreigners are “creating” jobs. For every $15/hr job they “create” some UAW worker loses a $30/hr job. Bottom line, the profits go over-seas. I was employed for 10 years by a great old American company, founded in 1846. When I started there in 1995 there were 1400 people employed at that facility. Guess what? They are moving to China, and now there are 200 people left to help close the doors. It “ain’t” no joke. Happens every day. The wealth in this country was created by manufacturing, and has historically supported the middle class. Ask some of the folks I used to work with how they feel about “foreign made” goods. You won’t get a lot of support. I would never ask someone to spend their hard earned money on junk, but that isn’t the case. Plenty of folks here drive American trucks and are very satisfied with them. When folks start with unfounded rumors, and grossly exaggerated claims about how great their suzukayota car is and how bad the American made cars are I get fired up. We need more nationalism, not less. Go to France, the French are driving primarily Peugeots, the Germans; BMW and Mercedes, the Italians; Fiats, the Japanese; Toyotas. They all understand; “it’s the economy stupid”! I’ll get off my soap box now; I need a (American made) micro brew…

[bhayden]

Originally Posted by BillTex

Do you like 55 Chevy’s? 63 split window Vettes? How about a nice 58 Corolla?

Trolling ? I couldn't tell you what a '58 Toyota looked like but I wouldn't turn down a '61 Jaguar E Type! It was the response to the british sports cars that propted Detroit to build the Corvette in the first place.

Originally Posted by BillTex

Some folks don’t realize how much of our economy revolves around the auto industry. ... We need more nationalism, not less. Go to France, the French are driving primarily Peugeots, the Germans; BMW and Mercedes, the Italians; Fiats, the Japanese; Toyotas. They all understand; “it’s the economy stupid”!

I was in Ireland this summer and didn't see anyone driving a De Lorean . Strange as it may sound the two vehicles we rented were both built by Ford. The open market in Europe has produced a number of strange aliances between all of the automakers. That includes not just the traditional European marques but companies in Japan, Korea and many of the new Eastern European states. If nationalism means being informed and voting for represenatives that will give US manufacturing a fair shake then I'm all for it. That'll do a lot more than bummer stickers and slogans. One of the best summaries I could find was actually on a Ford website:

http://www.ford.com/en/company/about...ufacturing.htm

One of the Big Three talking about, health care, improved fuel economy and government research? It's not your grandfathers economy

-Bernie

[Streamer1]

Currently I tow with a 06 Nissan Titan. This is a very capable truck for the most part. I would however consider a 3/4 or 1 ton with their "heavy-duty" frames and "additional torque" to glide over mountains with fewer downshifts and engine "roaring."

[RedSHED]

This thread title raised my eyebrows for a moment!
Where I live, Heavy Duty trucks run from 26,000 pounds up to 80,000 (or more - depending on local rules), Medium Duty is ~10000-26000 lbs, Light Duty is around 8000-12000, and "automotive" is under 8000.

Oh well... back to your regularly scheduled forum :-)

[Silvertwinkie]

Americans are a fairly proud and at times irrational bunch. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mistubishi, etc all make great products. In most cases the fit and finish is equal to or greater than even the German builders of today (though even the Germans are having some issues to lately).

Trucks are an icon to Americans that represent a lot of things, mostly emotion type things, in many cases more so than cars.

Outside of what has already been suggested, one reason I got from a friend that works for Toyota said that the Japanese are very careful people who try not to offend at any possible cost. Toyota recently became the #2 worldwide vehicle manufac, and they are very worried about any backlash to Ford being unseated by Toyota. In essence they don't want to dump where they eat and want to approach the market slowly and with caution.

Now as a rational person, one would say that Ford and GM need to step up their game if they want to keep marketshare. I think at least GM has done it with the trucklines that are out and heading out shortly. The interiors alone are of high quality and the fit, finish and reliability are right up there. The issue is that the domestics have an image problem and it's gonna take some time for them to overcome some of the sloppy built pig iron they pushed out years ago.

One other issue that has not yet been discussed is the fact that Toyota painfully goes to great lengths to get it right the first time. Toyota, now more than ever has had a slew of recalls, which is not typical for them. In addition to the perception issue above, they are also pulling back some to get the Q/C issues back to an acceptable level. They are not as familiar with high volume recalls as the domestics and from what I was told, they are also looking into why a fair number of recalls are happening, and stop it.

In the end, I have no doubt that Toyota and the rest will join the real 3/4 ton market. When they do, the domestics will again have to offer somethine fresh and built well to stay competitive. We may see Ford parked at #3 from here on out. Ford has some serious issues to overcome and GM, though the news is better, cannot get too complacent because there are sharks in the water and no one can afford to be in a sinking boat.

[scottanlily]

if we want to talk recalls on toyota ,lets start say with the 90 v6 up to 98
or so ,thousands upon thousands of the 3.0 v6 trucks .had one today for a second time now ,need the head gaskets replaced as well as the blocks decked to resolve a faulty head gasket torque failure problem .The machine shop here locally had about 3 blocks a week from SB toyota (all the time)
the 22R and RE 4 cylinders had a recall for exhaust manifolds for years on
end ,pulled studs and warpage of the manifold ,timing chains on those engines were strectching and rattling constantly .That being said ,toyota
handles it and does warranty these problems .The torque converter on many
camrys I think is the car at this time ,is failing at a very high rate ,like 6
reissues of those converters ,big problems .So although there is great respect
for toyotas ,If I want a piece of americana ,and have a vintage airstream
Ill go with the appropriate TV ,an American truck ,my choice being a period correct IH travelall ,its heavily built and has what it takes .these days most
don't care about that ,its funny though to want an american travel trailer
such as the airstream ,but not consider an american vehical to tow it with .
But ,we buy what we like and thats the American way these days .Its the
trailer that counts anyway.One things for sure though GM has to get into
doing the recalls under warranty and not trying to get out of it all the time ,
and improving the failed part instead of just selling you another new one
thats going to fail .they have been doing that for many years ,and haven't
learned a thing from toyota with respect to that issue .

Scott

[scottanlily]

I was rereading Billtex's post and have to say that if you go to any other country ,germany for example ,they aren't buying suburbans and dodges
or japan ,no ford escapes outselling the toyota vehicals or any other country
that buys more foreign made vehicals to drive than the US does .I often wonder what the other countries think about what the hecks going on over here anyway .Theres nothing wrong with going with american made vehicals .

Scott

[Silvertwinkie]

Asia, namely China are one of the domestics biggest customers. I read somewere that driving a Buick in China is a major status symbol since some high up had one. I still wonder if we'll see Ford and GM merge at some point.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with a domestic brand these days. However, statistically, if you look at recalls for dometic and compare those to Toyota, I think you'll find that the old big 3 dwarfed what was recalled up from Asia, up until say, the cars were made in here. Now I can hear some say, we'll yea, GM, Ford and Dodge were bigger than say Toyota.....that isn't the case anymore.

Having had 3 Accords, talked to owners and been in dozens across the model years, I can tell you that since they went to building them in Ohio, they aren't the same cars they were compared to when they were imported. Only the Hybrid cars for Honda are still imported. I'd blame it on the Unions, based on one of my buddies working at Detriot Diesel and his stories of dealing with all the overhead the unions bring, but Airstream isn't unionized and they are riddled with issues coming off the line, even today....though most of us complain we have to haul the trailers all over creation to get issues ironed out, we still buy them and for the 25' SS Safari that listed for $39k base back in 2004, it has increased to $45k, a nearly 16% increase in 2 model years.....and this is fairly common, even before energy and material cost increases. So you're right, we want what we want, we complain about the domestic automakers, but hold Airstream to a different standard.

[fastrob]

This thread has helped me reasess what I want, thanks.
The taxes on my then new 2003 here in Maine were over $2,000. Plus every year they get me for excise taxes and registration fees.
Maine is #1 in state taxes.
I want an old diesel truck. I thought about a new truck but would rather spend the money on a new motor or repairs. If I can get rid of my 2003 GM and get an older diesel without being stupid, I will. Guess having a vintage Airstream works along the same lines, sometimes having somthing new is not worth it to someone like me.

Robert