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Old 02-19-2019, 10:05 AM   #21
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Did 2 minutes of research (google) and found this..





a bit long and lots of folks don't care for his naughty language, so I'll save everyone some time.. first he feels the guys that build our engines know what they're doing and there aren't tons of cars by the side of the road with intake problems.. second, if you drive enough to get the engine hot enough, you should be ok.. and last, do the maintenance as you know you should, don't "push" it time or distance because the things that keep your engine clean are already there and need to be cleaned, ie: the oil and oil filter... in effect he's putting catch cans in the same category as the people that try to sell you a 4oz fuel or oil "supplement" that gets poured into 25 or 30 gallons..
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:39 AM   #22
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Hi, Ford did not add cans or drill holes and I'm not either. [close to 50,000 miles] Drive it hard once in a while and it will clear everything by it's self. You want to baby it at low RPM's buy a Diesel.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:18 PM   #23
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As an engine builder (My profession) I spend all day long fixing the bad engine design and poor engineering from the factory (of course neglect too) and yes these DI engines are having a very high failure rate. (my brother at the dealer told me at any given day he has at least 3 motor jobs going on, compound that over 4 service writers and you have a Lot of failures) Ive seen cracked pistons from the DI injectors in mopars, valves sticking and smacking the pistons in fords and rover engines, tons of valve stick missfires (some cleanable and some we have to do a head job on) and thats just a touch of the surface (job security for me) BMW and Mini came out with a walnut shell blasting kit to clean them in the car. Just my experience being the man in the trenches. If anyone thinks factory engineers get it right they are definitely not mechanics cuz any mechanic at some time curses the poor engineering as they are fixing something.

Not that the engineers dont do a fantastic job designing these newer engines, squeezing performance and economy out of them. There is always a fix, upgrade or tweek to make something better and sometimes it is as simple as drilling a hole in something.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:10 PM   #24
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I have never considered a catch can modification a solution for poor design of the original crankcase ventilation system, but rather a solution for misuse of the vehicle. Lots of short trips, never getting it hot enough as it was intended to be run, so as to burn off the crud, and then you can have problems. The solution is to drive it properly, not to bastardize the engine breather.

I have no doubt that there are engines failing out there. I just think it is the person operating it much more often than not.

My approach (on a non-Eco Boost but similar direct injection six cylinder engine) was to use a high quality engine oil that met all manufacturer's specs (no miracle oils that didn't have actual certifications); avoid all engine oil additives like the plague as they simply contaminated the engine oil; use high quality fuel (not based solely on AKI, which I varied by season, but rather on the inclusion of Techron or similar cleaner, and minimization of any ethanol contaminants); change oil and filter as per manufacturer's recommendations (I usually went 24,000 km intervals for oil and filter changes on my turbo DI six cylinder engine, with great results); warm the engine by driving moderately (no idling in the driveway, ever); regular use of the full rpm range once the engine was warm (7000 rpm redline, so regular runs to 5000+ rpm); a mix of highway or higher rpm runs interspersed with the expected and required shorter trips; no excessive worrying about whether it was working fine or not. It just did.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:23 PM   #25
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The tech on youtube is good, he talks clear makes common sense. The price of that system is pretty steep.

This is the new problem across all direct engine turbo lines. Those of us who are not into the turbos hard and change oil more often have faired better.

IF you cant sleep at night read this LOL! I appreciate the education and advise from people on this forum.

https://www.oronite.com/about/news/l...-ignition.aspx
I read your Chevron link, and a few others. It appears that this problem, to the extent that it does exist, doesn't appear across all direct injection turbo engine lines. Perhaps that is due to the engine control strategy, I don't know.

Something that didn't make sense to me is that Chevron wrote that the preignition can't be countered by varying ignition timing. I wouldn't have expected it to be, it is pre ignition. It would be countered by varying fuel and valve timing.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:15 AM   #26
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Hi, as an engine mechanic in the late 60's and early 70's, we worked on many sludged up engines. Some could be saved and many could not. The problems were caused by lack of oil changes, driving short distances, cold engines, and just plain not driving these monster cars as they should have been. We also had to fix valves that had so much carbon on them that it made you wonder how anything got past them.

This was not a manufacturer problem. This was an owner / driver problem. Drilling holes and adding cans is a band-aid to cover for improper use and lack of maintenance.

If the Ford Ecoboost was as bad as people try to make them out to be, with the amount produced, [millions?] all of our nations freeways would be blocked with dead vehicles.
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:27 AM   #27
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If the Ford Ecoboost was as bad as people try to make them out to be, with the amount produced, [millions?] all of our nations freeways would be blocked with dead vehicles.
Found on road dead.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:31 AM   #28
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I’m sure this problem occurs, occasionally, for whatever reason. My brother has a year old Chevy duramax in the shop right now with bad injectors. That doesn’t mean duramax has an injector problem. His duramax has an injector problem. Yes, if you hit the internet others have had injector problems. Does this mean he should buy a Dodge, search for military grade injectors? Sometimes things break down, fix and move on. Vehicles, in general, run so much better and longer than they did 25 years ago. We all get mad and start blaming the manufacturers if anything breaks down, because we’re accustomed to them running so good. If 100,000 echoboost engines have this problem, its still not a widespread issue, since they’ve likely built 10-12 million. We modify our trucks all the time. Sometimes for fun, sometimes for performance. I doubt we NEED to do any of it, but if its for enjoyment, or confidence in your truck, or whatever have at it. I would advise against doing anything solely based on internet fear. The internet is very good for selling products, based on a problem found on the internet. This is just an opinion. I’m not against anyone installing a catch can, but my trucks usually stay stock except for accessories.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:44 AM   #29
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I’m sure this problem occurs, occasionally, for whatever reason. My brother has a year old Chevy duramax in the shop right now with bad injectors. That doesn’t mean duramax has an injector problem. His duramax has an injector problem. Yes, if you hit the internet others have had injector problems. Does this mean he should buy a Dodge, search for military grade injectors? Sometimes things break down, fix and move on. Vehicles, in general, run so much better and longer than they did 25 years ago. We all get mad and start blaming the manufacturers if anything breaks down, because we’re accustomed to them running so good. If 100,000 echoboost engines have this problem, its still not a widespread issue, since they’ve likely built 10-12 million. We modify our trucks all the time. Sometimes for fun, sometimes for performance. I doubt we NEED to do any of it, but if its for enjoyment, or confidence in your truck, or whatever have at it. I would advise against doing anything solely based on internet fear. The internet is very good for selling products, based on a problem found on the internet. This is just an opinion. I’m not against anyone installing a catch can, but my trucks usually stay stock except for accessories.
Good Lord, I thought I was the only one left......
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:12 AM   #30
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I read your Chevron link, and a few others. It appears that this problem, to the extent that it does exist, doesn't appear across all direct injection turbo engine lines. Perhaps that is due to the engine control strategy, I don't know.

Something that didn't make sense to me is that Chevron wrote that the preignition can't be countered by varying ignition timing. I wouldn't have expected it to be, it is pre ignition. It would be countered by varying fuel and valve timing.
I was pretty heavily involved with this phenomenon from a field perspective back when it was first coming to light....2015ish, as I recall.

When pre-ignition is caused by low octane fuel, backing off the timing resolves the combustion issue, unless the fuel is of really poor quality.

The pre-ignition source discussed here (Chevron paper) is caused by deposits of calcium (I recall another mineral as well....copper maybe, I forget now). These minerals are present in conventional petroleum engine oil base stocks. They occur naturally. These deposits on the piston head become super heated and act as a "glow plug" or second ignition source. Backing off timing may help in lowering combustion temps enough to assist, but won't eliminate the pre-ignition. Turbos aggravate the issue because their combustion pressures are very high compared to naturally aspirated engines.

At that time Dexos1 oil spec allowed for a synthetic blend stock, meaning it was about 50% petroleum based stock....containing calcium and other minerals.

The Spec was modified to Dexos1 version 2 (Dexos1 is for gas engines and Dexos 2 is for diesel...I know, confusing nomenclature). Dexos1 vesrion 2 is a full synthetic and all version 1 was purged from dealer stock. The elimination of the blended base stock eliminated the issue for the small displacement turbos for GM. There was a recall, and updated owner information issued to all affected owners.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:07 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by TruckerFritz View Post
Did 2 minutes of research (google) and found this..





a bit long and lots of folks don't care for his naughty language, so I'll save everyone some time.. first he feels the guys that build our engines know what they're doing and there aren't tons of cars by the side of the road with intake problems.. second, if you drive enough to get the engine hot enough, you should be ok.. and last, do the maintenance as you know you should, don't "push" it time or distance because the things that keep your engine clean are already there and need to be cleaned, ie: the oil and oil filter... in effect he's putting catch cans in the same category as the people that try to sell you a 4oz fuel or oil "supplement" that gets poured into 25 or 30 gallons..
This may very well be the FIRST online automotive presentation which I find ZERO issues with. ALL his positions and explanations are 100% accurate, IMPO.

Entertaining to boot!
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:22 PM   #32
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I was pretty heavily involved with this phenomenon from a field perspective back when it was first coming to light....2015ish, as I recall.

When pre-ignition is caused by low octane fuel, backing off the timing resolves the combustion issue, unless the fuel is of really poor quality.

The pre-ignition source discussed here (Chevron paper) is caused by deposits of calcium (I recall another mineral as well....copper maybe, I forget now). These minerals are present in conventional petroleum engine oil base stocks. They occur naturally. These deposits on the piston head become super heated and act as a "glow plug" or second ignition source. Backing off timing may help in lowering combustion temps enough to assist, but won't eliminate the pre-ignition. Turbos aggravate the issue because their combustion pressures are very high compared to naturally aspirated engines.
We are in raging agreement. I was referring to the pre-ignition caused by deposits when I noted that I wouldn't expect ignition timing to resolve the issue.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:03 PM   #33
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Where I first saw LSPI

You are connect, As you know todays engines can change timing per cylinder. This has led to great power ability to run different fuel maps vs fuel octane etc. This was all good until the oil started to slip up by the rings and start a non planned combustion event. I don’t panic about every new article out there. I was just lucky enough to be able to network with the engineers that watched engines grenade under ASTM oil testing.

The GM Dexos test for turbos is a new industry standard. AMSOIL has this on their site now. Most do not care only a CarGuy wants to understand what is going on. it its interesting how Ford has modified the 17+ 3.5 ECO-Boost with both port fuel and direct injection, a stronger block , better engine cooling and revised turbos for heat control. I've had nothing but GM trucks for years. This is my first adventure with the Ford Eco-Boost. The LSPI is just a topic that came up from people that asked me about it. This is AMSOIL’s take on it.

At least were not blasting walnut shells against the intake valve’s if you remember those days.

(ACHIEVED 100% PROTECTION AGAINST LSPI

Low-speed pre-ignition is the spontaneous ignition of the fuel/air mixture prior to spark-triggered ignition. This phenomenon is much more destructive than typical pre-ignition and has become one of the latest challenges to arise in today’s advanced engines. Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil has been armed with an advanced detergent system and achieved 100% protection against LSPI.3)

The new 2020 trucks from are an interesting study. I can’t afford one but it’s sure fun to look at the technology. Always changing. Appreciate all the posts and comments. Lots of talent on this site.
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:37 AM   #34
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I think it is more accurate to say that the Dexos 1 Gen 2 is a new GM standard, not a new industry standard. My BMW calls for a BMW LL-01 standard (which has been around since 2001) as well as the API classification SN Plus (which is recent). That includes 2018 model vehicles, and recent models haven't had the oil issues described above.

The Motorcraft oils offered by Ford for the Ecoboost products are not listed on the Dexos certification list, and Ford isn't calling for Dexos oil.

Also worth noting that not only are no Amsoil oils listed on the Dexos certification list, but the Amsoil oils are generally not API certified either. Those two specs are relevant for engine warranty issues.

Amsoil get around it by promoting a product that they say is good enough for the standard, but which isn't actually certified. They use language like "suitable for engines calling for...." as opposed to noting that they have the certification. The risk is that because they aren't offering a certified product, they can change the formula when they like. They then offer a warranty to cover you if the engine manufacturer declines to do so due to the use of noncertified oils. That approach causes me to not consider Amsoil products, ever.

I didn't know which oils were Dexos certified, not having any GM products; it is a fairly long list. I also found out that Dexos 1 Gen 2 can be a synthetic blend and still be certified, it doesn't require a full synthetic. The GM factory fill (and branded dealer supplied) oil went to a full synthetic when they went to Dexos 1 Gen 2, and that resolved issues they were having, but that was apparently an issue with their specific labelled oil (made by Exxon for GM), not with all synthetic blends.

https://www.gmdexos.com/owner/index.html
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:44 AM   #35
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I think it is more accurate to say that the Dexos 1 Gen 2 is a new GM standard, not a new industry standard. My BMW calls for a BMW LL-01 standard (which has been around since 2001) as well as the API classification SN Plus (which is recent). That includes 2018 model vehicles, and recent models haven't had the oil issues described above.

The Motorcraft oils offered by Ford for the Ecoboost products are not listed on the Dexos certification list, and Ford isn't calling for Dexos oil.

Also worth noting that not only are no Amsoil oils listed on the Dexos certification list, but the Amsoil oils are generally not API certified either. Those two specs are relevant for engine warranty issues.

Amsoil get around it by promoting a product that they say is good enough for the standard, but which isn't actually certified. They use language like "suitable for engines calling for...." as opposed to noting that they have the certification. The risk is that because they aren't offering a certified product, they can change the formula when they like. They then offer a warranty to cover you if the engine manufacturer declines to do so due to the use of noncertified oils. That approach causes me to not consider Amsoil products, ever.

I didn't know which oils were Dexos certified, not having any GM products; it is a fairly long list. I also found out that Dexos 1 Gen 2 can be a synthetic blend and still be certified, it doesn't require a full synthetic. The GM factory fill (and branded dealer supplied) oil went to a full synthetic when they went to Dexos 1 Gen 2, and that resolved issues they were having, but that was apparently an issue with their specific labelled oil (made by Exxon for GM), not with all synthetic blends.

https://www.gmdexos.com/owner/index.html
Let me clarify. Dexos is a GM spec. I used to have a spider chart which showed the different areas of protection (corrosion resistance, anti-foaming, shear strength....etc.) but it went back with my work laptop when I retired. I wish I would have saved it. If an aftermarket oil is Dexos1 version 2, I suppose it could be blended, if they have removed the calcium and other minerals to meet the spec. GM dealer bulk oil was moved to all synthetic Dexos1 version 2.

I did not mean to imply that non-GM owners should change to Dexos...at all. In fact my position these days is to USE EXACTLY WHAT IS CALLED OUT FOR in your owner manual and by your manufacturer. One never knows what is unique with your engine. Oils are becoming more and more important as the life blood of your components and lube technology is advancing dramatically....and specifically to a specific engine family.

Old belief sets and habits are killing engines!!! And we haven't even talked about how owners are creating problems with improper level checks and filling, as it related to normal consumption rates.

That'll open a can of worms, but reality is reality....
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:12 AM   #36
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I read that some of you say that it most likely happens to people that abuse and or don't properly maintain their ecoboost powered trucks. I have owned mine since new and have always driven it like I paid for it- which I did. I have changed the oil ( and filter) methodically per maintenance schedule. My truck is a 2012 and still looks new inside and out. I even dust the engine off every time I wash the truck. The most workout it has gotten is towing, which it is designed for ( I got the Max Towing Package). My trailer is weighted well within the limits of the truck. I don't even live in a state with humidity, which is where it seems like everyone lives that has experienced the same symptoms that I have with this engine. Yet the problem plagued my truck bigtime. I was more than ready to trade it in and go back to driving a GMC, which is what I moved from. As I have noted in a previous post, once I drilled that 1/8 hole and changed the spark plugs ( that weren't even that dirty), the truck ran like new- with no noticeable loss of power. I'm sure that there are some guys that have issues with their ecoboost equipped trucks because of abuse, but I assure you that many of us know that WE are not included in that group.
This is a poor engineering issue.
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:27 AM   #37
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I read that some of you say that it most likely happens to people that abuse and or don't properly maintain their ecoboost powered trucks. I have owned mine since new and have always driven it like I paid for it- which I did. I have changed the oil ( and filter) methodically per maintenance schedule. My truck is a 2012 and still looks new inside and out. I even dust the engine off every time I wash the truck. The most workout it has gotten is towing, which it is designed for ( I got the Max Towing Package). My trailer is weighted well within the limits of the truck. I don't even live in a state with humidity, which is where it seems like everyone lives that has experienced the same symptoms that I have with this engine. Yet the problem plagued my truck bigtime. I was more than ready to trade it in and go back to driving a GMC, which is what I moved from. As I have noted in a previous post, once I drilled that 1/8 hole and changed the spark plugs ( that weren't even that dirty), the truck ran like new- with no noticeable loss of power. I'm sure that there are some guys that have issues with their ecoboost equipped trucks because of abuse, but I assure you that many of us know that WE are not included in that group.
I assume you are talking about drilling a hole in the bottom of the intercooler?

I am familiar with that owner fix. I had the same issue with some 4 cylinder turbos last year. The issue is when you compress cool humid (in this case) air AND cool it further in the intercooler, the moisture drops out and condenses. When a vehicle is driven short distances and/or idles a lot , there isn't enough drive time (or higher rpm drives, which equals strong airflow within the intercooler) to evaporate or move that moisture through the combustion chamber. Cumulative events cause a restriction in the intercooler (intake system) and/or cause liquid water to foul sensors downstream (like MAF, MAP, boost sensor, etc.). Then you get check engine light, reduced engine power light and performance problems. It can happen during an extended highway drive, but it is a pretty rare climatic set of circumstances where this will occur.

Drilling a hole allows this water to drain, but Manufacturers can't do that. It increases emissions and brings the vehicle out of compliance. (PCV is necessarily introduced upstream of the turbo) The hole does cause a bit of boost loss, but not a noticeable amount for most owners.

When I left, the problem was being addressed with a revised fin design intercooler, which wouldn't let ice form as readily, but I wasn't around long enough to comment on success. An interim fix was to use a front grille cover (like a diesel) to keep intercooler temps higher. Unacceptable in my book, but was effective in winter situations, and didn't affect performance below 47*F.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:02 AM   #38
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Let me clarify. Dexos is a GM spec. I used to have a spider chart which showed the different areas of protection (corrosion resistance, anti-foaming, shear strength....etc.) but it went back with my work laptop when I retired. I wish I would have saved it. If an aftermarket oil is Dexos1 version 2, I suppose it could be blended, if they have removed the calcium and other minerals to meet the spec. GM dealer bulk oil was moved to all synthetic Dexos1 version 2.

I did not mean to imply that non-GM owners should change to Dexos...at all. In fact my position these days is to USE EXACTLY WHAT IS CALLED OUT FOR in your owner manual and by your manufacturer. One never knows what is unique with your engine. Oils are becoming more and more important as the life blood of your components and lube technology is advancing dramatically....and specifically to a specific engine family.

Old belief sets and habits are killing engines!!! And we haven't even talked about how owners are creating problems with improper level checks and filling, as it related to normal consumption rates.

That'll open a can of worms, but reality is reality....
Agree. My comment on using Dexos in other than a GM was to Life, who is running an Ecoboost and referred to Dexos as a new industry standard.

Fully support using what the manufacturer calls for. Higher specific outputs in modern engines make that more critical. It even comes down to what they recommend in your specific geography. BMW came out with a newer spec oil in Europe, and many owners sought it out, believing that it was somehow better. They often used the term German Castrol or GC to refer to one specific Euro oil. BMW had early hour engine failures in North America on those oils, and had to issue a bulletin that the LL04 spec was not appropriate or recommended for North American operation, unless change intervals were drastically shortened. It was due to our typical fuel specs, it didn’t stand up. LL04 is now recommended only for diesels in North America. I still see it advertised in North America by sellers promoting it online (misleadingly) for gasoline engines.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:06 AM   #39
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I read that some of you say that it most likely happens to people that abuse and or don't properly maintain their ecoboost powered trucks. I have owned mine since new and have always driven it like I paid for it- which I did.
It can be poor maintenance. But it is just as often the use pattern, with short trips and no chance for it to get good and hot regularly.

I drove mine like I wanted the performance that I paid for. Babying it wasn’t a good thing.
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:25 PM   #40
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What belief's and habits

I had that same chart and it stayed in my office the day I left.

Maybe you could help the readers, they might like to understand the killing engine belief and habits.

I’ll start
1: How about quick lubes and independents using wrong viscosity bulk oils, a fits all one blend. Like 10W-40 in everything.

I uncovered that in several operations even dealers. I saw an entire fleet of 4 cyl Colorado engines trashed in 30k miles from oil not meeting Dexos specifications, Bean counter would not pay the upgrade. In the end it cost him a lot more than oil.





One never knows what is unique with your engine. Oils are becoming more and more important as the life blood of your components and lube technology is advancing dramatically....and specifically to a specific engine family.

Old belief sets and habits are killing engines!!! And we haven't even talked about how owners are creating problems with improper level checks and filling, as it related to normal consumption rates.

That'll open a can of worms, but reality is reality....[/QUOTE]
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