Can you please check my numbers and assumptions?

[Riskinator]

Greetings,

I'm new on this forum and I'm researching which AS would be best for my wife and I to do a couple of laps of North America when we retire soon. Plan on staying mostly at Harvest Hosts with extended stays in campgrounds that we find worth it and do day trips from the home base.

I have a new truck that I love and am not interested in selling (maybe next truck but right now I can't fit a 3/4 into the parkade where I work, etc).

TV: 2023 Sierra Denali 1500 6.2 litre 10 speed transmission; 420 hp/460 lbft torque. Can pull like crazy and the new generation tweaked the brake design so very comfortable in very good braking capability.

What I'm running up against is payload. My payload of my truck according to the yellow sticker is 1,363 lbs.

Here are my two leading candidates for my wife and I (no kids or others travelling with us):

Option A: AS 25 RTB

I've done a lot of reading on this model. The rear bed design has all three external storage compartments in the rear of the trailer; the tanks, 2nd AC, hw heater, etc are behind the rear axle (mostly). People find that real hitch weight on a rear bed model to be around 800-900 lbs measured on a scale due to this configuration.

I plan on running two lithium batteries which saves a little weight up front.

Passengers (wife and myself with some extra room):350 lbs

So, after doing the math:

1,363 lbs payload
- 350 lbs (wife and I)
- 50 lbs (Blue ox hitch offset a little by Li batteries)
- 850 lbs average real life measured hitch weight from this forum for rear bed model

Leaves a positive capacity of 113 lbs.

*Reading about the equaliser hitches, I should be able to shift about 100-150 lbs from the tongue weight back to the trailer axles conservatively. I could do more but don't think that's a good idea for the trailer flex or rigidity.

So, that leaves me a real rolling driving buffer of between 113 lbs to 263 lbs of payload. All my tools, etc. I plan to put in the rear compartment of the trailer helping this a little more. Still have a lot of weight over the hitch so should be fine for driving characteristics.

Option B: AS 23 FTB

This forum shows real life hitch weight of approx. 600 lbs with typical stored stuff, tanks etc.

Same trade out of batteries, etc. So some numbers change:

1,363 lbs payload
- 350 lbs (wife and I)
- 50 lbs (Blue ox hitch offset a little by Li batteries)
- 600 lbs measured hitch weight from this forum 23 FBT

Leaves 363 lbs of excess payload.

*I wouldn't think using an equalizer hitch should be used as much as the first option so lets say 100 lbs shifted back to the trailer axles.

So, this option leaves me between 363-463 lbs real rolling driving payload capacity.


Summary and my conclusion:

I can legally make both work. I have to be very careful managing cargo and load in the 25'. It pushes to the maximum numbers of the truck so would need to be VERY aware of that in various driving conditions. Comfort getting that close to the limits varies with people, but I may not want to get that close.

The second trailer offers much more buffer. Also easier to tow, less wind resistance (narrowbody and shorter). Still have to be careful but can have a little more leeway in packing things in the truck.

Have I missed anything? I just focus on load capacity on this thread as I have lots of capacity on the other numbers when I ran the calcs.

Honestly, thank for your help. Please keep this conversation positive and helpful; I'm still learning!

[Thiss]

I am of the greater the weight margins the better camp and less worry about everything being loaded and perfectly. I mean what if in your travels you find the perfect antique/sculpture/motorcycle/anything else heavy and you want to bring it home? Why reduce your payload to just a couple of camp chairs and the dog? What if you learn BLM camping for a couple weeks is your jam and you want to start hauling 55gal of extra water and a generator and stay isolated for streaks on end? What if you have a friend or grandkids that want to go along?

What model are you looking at?

Oh one thing, maybe I am wrong, but I think the longer units actually create less wind drag, but I am not an engineer.

Happy shopping!

[Bill M.]

I pull an older 25' with a 3/4 ton. I do not even know the tongue weight. I do know the trailer adds 800 lbs to the truck when hitched with the WD engaged. My trailer is maybe 1000 lbs lighter than the new ones. So I think your 850 lbs number is probably correct. We like the 25' length a lot and like the rear twin bed arrangement.

What concerns me in your posts is the idea of putting the weight behind the axles of the 25 and trying to reduce the TW. That sounds like a recipe for sway to me. My take on the 25' with that truck would be to just run the truck near or even over the payload. Balance the load front to back with the hitch and maybe stay under the axle and gross weight limits. That to me would be better than trying to lower the TW by loading. Put good tires on the truck. Put good mirrors on the truck. Lots and lots of people successfully tow larger Airstreams with 1/2 ton TV's Many of them seem less capable than your truck.

If I were in your shoes I would go with the 25 and run over weight sometimes. But...if that bothers you a lot then maybe get the 23 so you know you are "in specs".

My tools, generator, and any other heavy stuff goes in the truck bed as close to the cab as I can get it. We travel fairly light. A 50 lb generator and a 20 lb grill being about all the extra. Plus some fishing stuff. Waders, boots, and a fly rod.

[gypsydad]

The 25' is the "most popular" AS. We owned 3 25's prior to moving up to the 28'. The 23' is a great little AS also...many folks love them; and many 23' AS owners have also moved up to the 25' or larger units...moral is, your first AS may not be your last...

The tongue weight on the 25' can be 1000+lbs easy. Moving "tools" or heavy weight to the rear of the AS, is not recommended, so be careful there.

I personally would still have the 25'...loved towing, parking, and inside was just fine... However, it was the "wife" who convinced me we needed a "larger" AS...so you just never know where you will end up till you start streaming...

[Jeff7176]

Payload is definitely one concern. Axle weight rating is another, possibly larger concern IMO.

Our 25FB is heavy on the tongue at 1,100 lbs (measured with a sherline scale). We started with a 150 that had about 1,800 lbs of payload, but when I measured the whole thing when hooked up and fully loaded for camping, we were over the RAWR by about 100 lbs. it pulled the trailer just fine, but I questioned whether we would prematurely ruin the truck’s axle and the associated issues that could come with it.

So we moved up to a 250 and it was perfect…for us.

You can make the 1500 work just fine, but I recommend you weigh at least a couple times a season to check everything looks good to you.

[Dennis C]

I’ll add my 2¢ worth of commentary to this thread. I’m adding this as my opinion, not as a judgement on anyone or anything else. My 23FB had a tongue weight of about 630 lbs. when loaded for camping, according to the Sherline scale. My truck’s payload rating in 1,479 lbs. Under normal conditions, I was well within all the limits for my truck and my tow vehicle. However, when we took longer trips, I was often close to the limits. We packed heavy for longer trips, often carrying our generator and gasoline, a Yeti cooler full of tasty beverages, and other gear.

Allow me to provide some data to consider. I weighed my truck and trailer on a CAT scale in the off season, so it was relatively empty. It weighed 3,240 lbs. at the steer axle, 3,180 lbs. at the drive axle, and 5,280 lbs. at the trailer axles for a total of 11,700 lbs. All this is well within spec for my truck. I weighed it again with a heavy load, although all the tanks were empty. It weighed 3,520 lbs. at the steer axle, 3,660 lbs. at the drive axle, and 5,580 lbs. at the trailer axles for a total of 12,760 lbs. This was also within spec, but closer to the limits. My Denali 1500 has axle ratings of 3,950 lbs., front and rear. I had room to spare.

I’ve often wondered if I would have been within spec with a 25 footer. I think that I would have been over a few of my limits with a 25. I could be wrong. Maybe I would have been close but not over. For me personally and the way that I load and camp, my opinion is that a 25 foot Airstream is too much for my truck. I wouldn’t pull one larger than a 23 footer. Again - no judgement here. I know lots of people pull 25 foot and larger trailers with half tons. It can be done. Where you drive matters. I never liked driving down a 7% grade or more when I was loaded heavy. I do lots of mountain driving. If you mostly drive on flatter ground, then this may not be a consideration for you.

Ultimately you just have to decide where you’re comfortable in terms of weight, balance, limits, etc. You also need to decide if the smaller trailer will work for you before buying one. If you buy the 23 and end up trading it for a 25 or bigger, this will cost you more than just buying the 25 first. Don’t get me wrong, the 23 is an awesome trailer, but it’s much tighter inside than the 25.

[Riskinator]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

The 25' is the "most popular" AS. We owned 3 25's prior to moving up to the 28'. The 23' is a great little AS also...many folks love them; and many 23' AS owners have also moved up to the 25' or larger units...moral is, your first AS may not be your last...

The tongue weight on the 25' can be 1000+lbs easy. Moving "tools" or heavy weight to the rear of the AS, is not recommended, so be careful there.

I personally would still have the 25'...loved towing, parking, and inside was just fine... However, it was the "wife" who convinced me we needed a "larger" AS...so you just never know where you will end up till you start streaming...

Thank you very much for your comments. Let me clarify, I am NOT moving heavy stuff to the back of the trailer to try to compensate for the hitch weight. I think I've shown the REAR bed 25 AS just makes the numbers. This model has the 3 storage compartments at the rear of the trailer which I intend to use as AS designed.... wisely. Using these will not contribute more to the hitch weight.

Thanks again!

[Riskinator]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I’ll add my 2¢ worth of commentary to this thread. I’m adding this as my opinion, not as a judgement on anyone or anything else. My 23FB had a tongue weight of about 630 lbs. when loaded for camping, according to the Sherline scale. My truck’s payload rating in 1,479 lbs. Under normal conditions, I was well within all the limits for my truck and my tow vehicle. However, when we took longer trips, I was often close to the limits. We packed heavy for longer trips, often carrying our generator and gasoline, a Yeti cooler full of tasty beverages, and other gear.

Allow me to provide some data to consider. I weighed my truck and trailer on a CAT scale in the off season, so it was relatively empty. It weighed 3,240 lbs. at the steer axle, 3,180 lbs. at the drive axle, and 5,280 lbs. at the trailer axles for a total of 11,700 lbs. All this is well within spec for my truck. I weighed it again with a heavy load, although all the tanks were empty. It weighed 3,520 lbs. at the steer axle, 3,660 lbs. at the drive axle, and 5,580 lbs. at the trailer axles for a total of 12,760 lbs. This was also within spec, but closer to the limits. My Denali 1500 has axle ratings of 3,950 lbs., front and rear. I had room to spare.

I’ve often wondered if I would have been within spec with a 25 footer. I think that I would have been over a few of my limits with a 25. I could be wrong. Maybe I would have been close but not over. For me personally and the way that I load and camp, my opinion is that a 25 foot Airstream is too much for my truck. I wouldn’t pull one larger than a 23 footer. Again - no judgement here. I know lots of people pull 25 foot and larger trailers with half tons. It can be done. Where you drive matters. I never liked driving down a 7% grade or more when I was loaded heavy. I do lots of mountain driving. If you mostly drive on flatter ground, then this may not be a consideration for you.

Ultimately you just have to decide where you’re comfortable in terms of weight, balance, limits, etc. You also need to decide if the smaller trailer will work for you before buying one. If you buy the 23 and end up trading it for a 25 or bigger, this will cost you more than just buying the 25 first. Don’t get me wrong, the 23 is an awesome trailer, but it’s much tighter inside than the 25.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. I get your points for sure. I see you live in Colorado so get your comments. I lived on Golden for a few years on a work rotation. I now live in Calgary, Canada. Our plans are to go more east to explore and eventually end up in the Florida Keys. Awareness is such a big part of this I think; whatever I buy I need to drive accordingly. Thanks again! Very informative.

[Riskinator]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

I pull an older 25' with a 3/4 ton. I do not even know the tongue weight. I do know the trailer adds 800 lbs to the truck when hitched with the WD engaged. My trailer is maybe 1000 lbs lighter than the new ones. So I think your 850 lbs number is probably correct. We like the 25' length a lot and like the rear twin bed arrangement.

What concerns me in your posts is the idea of putting the weight behind the axles of the 25 and trying to reduce the TW. That sounds like a recipe for sway to me. My take on the 25' with that truck would be to just run the truck near or even over the payload. Balance the load front to back with the hitch and maybe stay under the axle and gross weight limits. That to me would be better than trying to lower the TW by loading. Put good tires on the truck. Put good mirrors on the truck. Lots and lots of people successfully tow larger Airstreams with 1/2 ton TV's Many of them seem less capable than your truck.

If I were in your shoes I would go with the 25 and run over weight sometimes. But...if that bothers you a lot then maybe get the 23 so you know you are "in specs".

My tools, generator, and any other heavy stuff goes in the truck bed as close to the cab as I can get it. We travel fairly light. A 50 lb generator and a 20 lb grill being about all the extra. Plus some fishing stuff. Waders, boots, and a fly rod.

Thanks for the comments and thoughtful response. To be clear I don't plan on putting lots of things behind the trailer axles. The design itself has much on or just behind the axles... but obviously still has a significant hitch weight. I only plan on putting a few small hand tools, carpet, cords, black hose and an electric grill in the back, by example. I may add a small Honda 2200 but that would strap in agains the front of my box.

Thanks again!

[LNBright]

Ok, we have a 2020 GMC Sierra AT4 1500, w/ the 5.3. My payload ends up higher than yours, 1541lbs. Our camper is a 20FB. We use a BlueOx.

My big question for you is, how much do you pack along in the bed of the truck? Do you bring everything plus the kitchen sink, or do you try to pack like a backpacker?

We really like our current combination. But I’ll admit, if I was upgrading to a dual axle camper, I’d probably switch to a 2500, just to have enough payload to have the ability to carry extra stuff if needed. But as it is, we often pack pretty light, and our camper isn’t a heavy one. If I had to stick w/ the 1500 but needed to tow a dual axle, I’d consider going with a ProPride hitch.

[SYC2Vette]

It is disappointing that the payload on the 1500 is relatively low and surprising that my well optioned mid size Canyon is actually about 150 lbs higher capacity.

Since payload is really GVWR-GVW, maybe look at ways to reduce GVW. Heavy subwoofer? Tailgate? Heavy wheel/Tire combo? Rear seats if you don't use them? Etc

[Bill M.]

Guessing games: It is hard for me to think that GM builds 1500's with greatly different frames? So where did the payload go? Possibly the tires that GM specified for fuel millage? You cannot change the payload sticker rating but you can surely make the truck more capable with some changes.

[ROBERT CROSS]

If you bought the horse before you knew what the cart weighed, this can happen.
I wouldn't use a 1500 anything just because of the payload limits.
We've never left anything behind we thought might use even if we didn't.

“It's better to have what you don't need when you need it, than not to have it when you don’t.” or “you may think you don’t need it but when you do….you’ll have it.”
RLC

Bob
🇺🇸

[Dennis C]

Originally Posted by SYC2Vette

It is disappointing that the payload on the 1500 is relatively low and surprising that my well optioned mid size Canyon is actually about 150 lbs higher capacity.

Since payload is really GVWR-GVW, maybe look at ways to reduce GVW. Heavy subwoofer? Tailgate? Heavy wheel/Tire combo? Rear seats if you don't use them? Etc

Denali trucks have lots of options that add weight. Standard features include more insulation than the standard trucks, a sunroof, spray-in bed liner, running boards, etc. It all adds up fast and eats into payload…

[DogMomDeb]

When we ordered our F150 we specifically configured it for payload. Even though we didn’t know the weight of some options, we tried to keep our truck from being too option heavy (both in number and in weight).
I wanted the shorter bed but had to get the 6.5 bed to get the heavy duty payload package. We did without the heated seats and other window/sun roof options.
Our payload came in at 2406. There are some others here that did even better than we did with payload.

[coasttocoast]

Think in terms of 600 watts of solar and 600 amp hours of lithium. This will free you to boondock. You won’t America sitting at a campground.

[Luna1967]

One of your stated reasons for Not upgrading to a 3/4 ton is about to evaporate… A bigger truck won’t fit into parking at work and you’re about to retire!! I know, stating the obvious, but that blocker is almost gone.

While our 1967 17’ Caravelle doesn’t weigh enough for our 2003 F250 SD to know it’s attached, we use the truck, and it’s payload, for a myriad of other things in our lives that a 150 just couldn’t hold up to. We also travel ‘heavy’ and I like not worrying about packing like we did when we towed with a Toyota Previa van ;->.

Be safe, have a blast!

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by Riskinator

1,363 lbs payload
- 350 lbs (wife and I)
- 50 lbs (Blue ox hitch offset a little by Li batteries)
- 850 lbs average real life measured hitch weight from this forum for rear bed model

Leaves a positive capacity of 113 lbs.

You sure you're not going to put anything else into the truck? Roadside emergency supplies? A bag for each of you of car things? A tonneau cover?

That quickly adds up. For us, just the basics in the truck add up to over 200 lbs. That doesn't include any camping gear. I have an article that outlines our payload calculations some more along with a template if you want to start doing your own estimations. You also have to hope the trailer and your gear really does come out to the weights you are guessing at. I was conservative in my weight estimates.

My wife and I prefer a smaller trailer. 23 feet was a big step up from previous ones, but is as big as we want to go. It is still farm more manageable for parking and smaller campgrounds. For us, smaller is better, but we are not living in ours, so that obviously makes a difference. Though if we were (without kids), I still feel like 23 would be what we'd want. FWIW.

Just the basic stuff usually in our truck or added on (all numbers in pounds):

Retrax Tonneau Cover: 90
Wheel Well Liners: 7
Bed Mat: 16
Roadside Emergency Bag: 35
Cold Weather Bag: 21
Tool Kit: 17
General Car Stuff: 10
Bag for each passenger: 40

TOTAL: 236

[Dennis C]

The other nice thing about a small trailer is the “what if’ situations that you occasionally encounter when camping. I’ll give you a specific example. We were towing our 23FB home on Memorial Day weekend and we ran into a highway closure. Interstate 70 through the Glenwood Canyon closed for more than 24 hours due a wreck involving an 18-wheeler carrying hazardous chemicals. We had no way to get home and every campground within 250 miles was booked because of the holiday weekend. We looked for various parking options for the night, but we had no luck. We ended up getting the last available room at the Hampton Inn in Glenwood Springs. The would only allow a trailer in the parking lot if it would fit in a parking space because their lot was very full. Behold the beauty of the small trailer…

[superChop]

I am writing this note at Land Yacht Harbor surrounded by over 100 AS’s from Bambi’s to our 34’ triple axle Excella. I could take pictures of all the tow vehicles that some on this thread are advising OP to NOT use! Tundra’s for example are always over on payload, but there are some here. How about Expeditions and Suburbans, YEP they are here as well.

I would advise OP to check his rear axle rating and ensure that is sufficient for his 25’ AS. We moved to a larger TV, because our F150’s rear axle rating was under 4,000 lbs and we were hundreds of pounds over that on a regular basis with our 1964, 26’ Overlander.

There is a lot of buying and selling AS’s that occur here and very rarely does anyone move from a large trailer to a small trailer. Everyone seems to love more space!

On this forum - towing guru - Andy Thompson, from CAN AM usually advises against letting payload be the major decision on which trailer to use and has emphasized towing within axle ratios and Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR). He advised setup of a 34’ AS with a Nissan Armada. It truly looked unsafe when he pulled into our club’s park at Top of Georgia!

So if your axle ratings will support the 25’, then tow that trailer to some AS Rally’s and visit Land Yacht Harbor and look at all the beauties parked here during the winter months
on your way down to Key West!