Can you please check my numbers and assumptions?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Payload is a very arbitrary number. The number you see on some trucks is a sea level number and it goes down by > 20% as you cross the Rockies. What is not quite as debatable are axle limits.

To hit this or that payload normally means that each axle is fully loaded. Again, this can be a "depends on make and brand" sort of thing. If that's the case on your setup, getting to 100 pounds of a number means some pretty fancy "dial in" on the weight distribution. Changing this or that by one link / one washer / one whatever may not be fine grain enough.

At least for us, there's a lot of stuff in the back of the truck. There isn't a lot of storage space in a 23 or 25' trailer. Things have to go somewhere. Also you might find that your "hitch weight" does not include the shank and ball. There are other gotcha's that can come up.

I would plan for at least a couple hundred pounds of "spare" when doing this sort of math. Is that 300 or 500? My vote would be for at least 500 ....

Bob

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Payload is a very arbitrary number. The number you see on some trucks is a sea level number and it goes down by > 20% as you cross the Rockies. What is not quite as debatable are axle limits.

To hit this or that payload normally means that each axle is fully loaded. Again, this can be a "depends on make and brand" sort of thing. If that's the case on your setup, getting to 100 pounds of a number means some pretty fancy "dial in" on the weight distribution. Changing this or that by one link / one washer / one whatever may not be fine grain enough.

At least for us, there's a lot of stuff in the back of the truck. There isn't a lot of storage space in a 23 or 25' trailer. Things have to go somewhere. Also you might find that your "hitch weight" does not include the shank and ball. There are other gotcha's that can come up.

I would plan for at least a couple hundred pounds of "spare" when doing this sort of math. Is that 300 or 500? My vote would be for at least 500 ....

Bob

The payload number isn't arbitrary....and payload has nothing, nada, zip to do with altitude. HP? Yes.

[lemley]

In one of your follow-ups you said “ Awareness is such a big part of this I think; whatever I buy I need to drive accordingly.”. Absolutely.

The closer you get to the boundaries the more the details matter. Hitch selection and hitch setup are, IMHO, the key factors (and thus the recommendations for Andy at Can-Am). Set it up right and don’t push your driving limits and you should be fine.

From my experience, if there is enough rain to hydroplane, stop and wait it out. And avoid anything frozen (on the road…in your drink may be fine).

I pick up my new Suburban tomorrow. I’ve always towed with a Suburban or Yukon. Be careful. You’ll be fine. I’d be more concerned about an overconfident driver in a 2500 or 3500.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Glad we don't have that pesky 'payload' door sticker on our TV.

What we do have is axle & tire load ratings.. SFSG.

Bob
🇺🇸

[gandttimes]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

Denali trucks have lots of options that add weight. Standard features include more insulation than the standard trucks, a sunroof, spray-in bed liner, running boards, etc. It all adds up fast and eats into payload…

Also I believe with the Denali you can't get the Max Tow package which ups the GVWR by 300lbs ( 7000 to 7300lbs)and gets you a better 3.42 rear ratio.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Airstream Forums mobile app

[Riskinator]

Originally Posted by SYC2Vette

It is disappointing that the payload on the 1500 is relatively low and surprising that my well optioned mid size Canyon is actually about 150 lbs higher capacity.

Since payload is really GVWR-GVW, maybe look at ways to reduce GVW. Heavy subwoofer? Tailgate? Heavy wheel/Tire combo? Rear seats if you don't use them? Etc

As others have commented, the Denali has a lot of luxury options from power running boards, to different shocks, leather, sunroof, etc. etc. It all adds up and I love it. It's still a fantastic tow vehicle for the power, torque and stability that my smaller trucks didn't have. Eerything in life is a tradeoff!

[Dennis C]

Originally Posted by gandttimes

Also I believe with the Denali you can't get the Max Tow package which ups the GVWR by 300lbs ( 7000 to 7300lbs)and gets you a better 3.42 rear ratio.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Airstream Forums mobile app

Actually those are standard features on the Denali. The Denali trim includes everything in the Max Tow package except for the heavy duty rear springs and the heavy duty rear axle. Mine has a 3:42 axle ratio, auxiliary engine oil cooler, auxiliary transmission cooler, automatic heavy duty locking rear differential, 7,200 lb. GVWR, integrated trailer brake controller, etc.

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Glad we don't have that pesky 'payload' door sticker on our TV.



What we do have is axle & tire load ratings.. SFSG.



Bob

[emoji631]

And GVWR from which your payload is determined (GVWR - weight of truck without payload = payload). You may not have the fancy new sticker, but the payload limit is still there regardless.

[PatLee]

Payload can be lowered by reducing options on your truck. Sun roofs; opting for 4-wheel drive; off-road tires; roll bars; larger wheels; winches; and other accessories - all of this reduces the payload number on the driver side door sticker. Lithium batteries are a third of the weight of AGMs, so weight on the hitch is reduced. Deciding to leave the generator and gasoline at home increases payload. Opting for a smaller grill and no stand, like a Blackstone, can increase payload. That smokeless fire pit stove that is all the rage - do you really use it? They add weight and take up space and are one more thing to have to deal with at the end of a long day of adventuring on the road. Opting for a rear bedroom trailer over a front bedroom significantly reduces hitch weight which eats into your payload number.
I've been Airstreaming since 2005 and most everything I've listed here have been gathered from the experience and wisdom of other Airstreamers around the campfire; or at caravans, or from sharing a drink or meal at our respective picnic tables. For me, every one of these tips makes for a more simple, more comfortable and less stressful experience on the road; and more time to enjoy the simpler things of life, like watching hummingbirds coming to my feeder.

[SSquared]

Just another data point on what is possible in a GMC/Chevy 1500: I just got a 2023 Chevy 1500 crew cab short bed 4x4 LTZ. Options include 6.2L engine and Max trailering, but no sunroof, bedliner or running boards. The payload sticker says 1826. The axle ratings are 3800 and 4150, gvwr is 7300.

With my spouse and me on board, full gas, added running boards and an aluminum tonneau, the CAT scale says we have 1500 pounds available for cargo and tongue weight.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

The payload number isn't arbitrary....and payload has nothing, nada, zip to do with altitude. HP? Yes.

To be more accurate, GVWR is not arbitrary but payload on the sticker may include estimated driver weight (and such) and is therefore somewhat arbitrary. Basically payload is GVWR minus the weight of the truck in a situation (with or without fluids, with or without driver....) decided upon by the manufacturer. Since the latter is somewhat arbitrary and the truck could be lightened by removing the spare (for instance), the sticker payload is a bit arbitrary. But GVWR is fixed for sure, and doesn't change with altitude. I look at the payload number on the sticker as a good starting place and then make sure I do not except GVWR.

More to the OP's question, I would also recommend the 23 with that truck. I had a F150 with a payload of just over 1,500 and our 27' FBT and our standard camping load started exceeding the GVWR of 7,000 lbs. You could probably make the 25 work, as you note, but it depends on how comfortable you are with taking the time to reduce your "stuff" and load carefully.

[jeffb831]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

To be more accurate, GVWR is not arbitrary but payload on the sticker may include estimated driver weight (and such) and is therefore somewhat arbitrary. Basically payload is GVWR minus the weight of the truck in a situation (with or without fluids, with or without driver....) decided upon by the manufacturer.

The payload sticker never includes an allowance for a driver. If you have a reference to a manufacturer site that does, please reference it.

The maximum towing capacity includes a 150# driver allowance. If you have more passenger(s) and cargo weight, the towing capacity is reduced. For example if you have a vehicle with a 10,000# capacity, it is rated to tow a 10,000# trailer, provided you weigh 150#. If the weight of the occupants is 400# total, then the max rated capacity is 9,750# (10000 - (400 - 150))

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

To be more accurate, GVWR is not arbitrary but payload on the sticker may include estimated driver weight (and such) and is therefore somewhat arbitrary. Basically payload is GVWR minus the weight of the truck in a situation (with or without fluids, with or without driver....) decided upon by the manufacturer. Since the latter is somewhat arbitrary and the truck could be lightened by removing the spare (for instance), the sticker payload is a bit arbitrary. But GVWR is fixed for sure, and doesn't change with altitude. I look at the payload number on the sticker as a good starting place and then make sure I do not except GVWR.

Any payload sticker in the US in the past decade + does not include the driver and does include fuel. It was standardized I want to see in the mid 2000s, but I don't recall for certain.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by jeffb831

The payload sticker never includes an allowance for a driver. If you have a reference to a manufacturer site that does, please reference it.

The maximum towing capacity includes a 150# driver allowance. If you have more passenger(s) and cargo weight, the towing capacity is reduced. For example if you have a vehicle with a 10,000# capacity, it is rated to tow a 10,000# trailer, provided you weigh 150#. If the weight of the occupants is 400# total, then the max rated capacity is 9,750# (10000 - (400 - 150))

As noted, perhaps that was in the past. But it is still "arbitrary" in that you can change the payload by reducing the weight of the truck, but you cannot change the GVWR.

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

As noted, perhaps that was in the past. But it is still "arbitrary" in that you can change the payload by reducing the weight of the truck, but you cannot change the GVWR.

It's still not arbitrary. Arbitrary is when something is determined by chance or at a whim. The payload sticker is determined via calculation: GVWR - weight of truck as it leaves the factory. It's a useful tool when shopping for a vehicle. Though I think perhaps what you are getting at is is looses it's usefulness once you get the vehicle and start modifying it.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by hikingcamera

It's still not arbitrary. Arbitrary is when something is determined by chance or at a whim. The payload sticker is determined via calculation: GVWR - weight of truck as it leaves the factory. It's a useful tool when shopping for a vehicle. Though I think perhaps what you are getting at is is looses it's usefulness once you get the vehicle and start modifying it.

Yes, sorry if I am not clear. I guess I mean it is not necessarily fixed and can be changed. Thank you both for helping me clarify!

[Nishad]

Several good points are made on this thread. Allow me to add a few other things to consider for the sake of completeness.
For the entire thing to be safe (physically, legally, financially, emotionally) it is generally advised to keep the following parameters under the rating and limits. This is for conventional (ball) towing.

1. Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) [Drive/Rear]. Self-explanatory.
2. Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) [Steer/Front]. Self-explanatory.
3. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) [Tractor/Tow Vehicle]. Curb weight of the vehicle + payload.
4. Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR). The loaded weight of the trailer + tractor.
5. Tongue Weight Rating: This rating is usually 10% of Towing Capacity (Ford). This should be between 10-15% of the weight of the trailer.
6. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) [Trailer]
7. Tractor Wheelbase. Tractor wheelbase dictates how long of a trailer to tow without the tail wagging the dog.
8. Towing Capacity. Curb weight of the trailer + payload and WD.

“Safe”:

• Legally: In case of an accident your liability is not exacerbated.
• Physically: Laws of physics. Porpoising is dampened by gravity. Unchecked fishtailing can be disastrous.
• Emotionally: To be able to enjoy the ride rather than be stressed out.
• Financially: Feeds into legally.

[Nishad]

See attached screenshot.

[BHChieftain]

I spent a long time trying to decide between 23’ and 25’. The bathroom is nicer on the 23’, but the rest of the unit was just too small for me. The 25’ has AWESOME windows and a lounge where you can spread out a bit more. The 25 is 8” wider which really make a difference. Also, between the 25’ FB and RB there are also layout trade offs. The FB gives you a longer lounge and extra window, but a slightly smaller bathroom. We opted for the FB vs RB as we spend more time in the lounge area and wanted the space/view vs bathroom space (either way it is cramped on the 25)

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by Riskinator;

So, after doing the math:

1,363 lbs payload
- 350 lbs (wife and I)
- 50 lbs (Blue ox hitch offset a little by Li batteries)
- 850 lbs average real life measured hitch weight from this forum for rear bed model

Leaves a positive capacity of 113 lbs.

*Reading about the equaliser hitches, I should be able to shift about 100-150 lbs from the tongue weight back to the trailer axles conservatively. I could do more but don't think that's a good idea for the trailer flex or rigidity.

So, that leaves me a real rolling driving buffer of between 113 lbs to 263 lbs of payload. All my tools, etc. I plan to put in the rear compartment of the trailer helping this a little more. Still have a lot of weight over the hitch so should be fine for driving characteristics.

Option B: AS 23 FTB

This forum shows real life hitch weight of approx. 600 lbs with typical stored stuff, tanks etc.

Same trade out of batteries, etc. So some numbers change:

1,363 lbs payload
- 350 lbs (wife and I)
- 50 lbs (Blue ox hitch offset a little by Li batteries)
- 600 lbs measured hitch weight from this forum 23 FBT

Leaves 363 lbs of excess payload.

*I wouldn't think using an equalizer hitch should be used as much as the first option so lets say 100 lbs shifted back to the trailer axles.

I’d be happy with a couple hundred lbs of spare capacity, but everyone is different on that issue. Some try to take as much as possible, others prefer to travel with the least amount necessary.

I wouldn’t reduce tension on a wdh simply to reduce stress on the trailer. You need to pursue an optimum setup that maximizes stability and ensures a comfortable towing experience. And as long as you get a wdh with tapered bars, you shouldn’t cause damage to the trailer.