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Old 04-01-2021, 10:40 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
An "exhaust break" would be a damaged exhaust causing a leak. Brakes are what stop vehicles. "Break peddle" makes me want to scream.

Time and again, braking tests of HD trucks have shown that they don't out-stop half-ton trucks. The bigger trucks have bigger brakes to stop the bigger truck. In certain situations, such an an unbraked trailer on a long descent, the bigger brakes of an HD truck provide reduced fade after many brake applications in a short time period.

Since both classes of trucks went to 4-wheel disk brakes there hasn't been a huge real-world difference in friction braking. What extra braking force is available is consumed by the extra mass of the truck, since the contact patch is roughly the same for SRW trucks. Exhaust brakes on the diesels do make a big difference in easy drivability, but in some situations you want to have the trailer brakes engage as well for good control rather than just pushing against the back of the truck.
To this I would say to perform the test scenario I mentioned in the post above. Unloaded, yes of course the F150 will stop quicker. Itís simple physics. With k no I trailer brakes the F250 will stop the truck and trailer quicker without shimmy or shudder. That is a fact.
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Old 04-01-2021, 10:46 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
An "exhaust break" would be a damaged exhaust causing a leak. Brakes are what stop vehicles. "Break peddle" makes me want to scream.



Time and again, braking tests of HD trucks have shown that they don't out-stop half-ton trucks. The bigger trucks have bigger brakes to stop the bigger truck. In certain situations, such an an unbraked trailer on a long descent, the bigger brakes of an HD truck provide reduced fade after many brake applications in a short time period.



Since both classes of trucks went to 4-wheel disk brakes there hasn't been a huge real-world difference in friction braking. What extra braking force is available is consumed by the extra mass of the truck, since the contact patch is roughly the same for SRW trucks. Exhaust brakes on the diesels do make a big difference in easy drivability, but in some situations you want to have the trailer brakes engage as well for good control rather than just pushing against the back of the truck.


But say what you may itís our opinion , but real world driving scenario coming down a mountain as your 1500 series brakes are fading because of heating up all the while I havenít even touched my brakes yet and then a emergency happens whoís gonna stop quicker ? 1500 beside of a 2500 with no load behind it sure the 1500 will out perform stopping . But throw 7,000- 10,000 pounds behind it your telling me the 2500 wonít stop quicker ? Come on now ....
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Old 04-01-2021, 11:04 AM   #103
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Yes brakes... when Iím using text to talk driving down the road I donít check for misspelling but you know what I meant thanks for pointing that out lol BRAKES !!!
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But say what you may itís our opinion , but real world driving scenario coming down a mountain as your 1500 series brakes are fading because of heating up all the while I havenít even touched my brakes yet and then a emergency happens whoís gonna stop quicker ? 1500 beside of a 2500 with no load behind it sure the 1500 will out perform stopping . But throw 7,000- 10,000 pounds behind it your telling me the 2500 wonít stop quicker ? Come on now ....
I said that repeatedly in tests, braking performance has been found to be similar. Find me tests that support your opinion. They've gotta be out there, right? Yet when publications make the comparisons, they don't find it. Maybe overloaded trucks with poorly-maintained trailers where the brakes don't work... Frankly I'm going to continue to maintain my trailer brakes, even if I get to a place where I'm full- or half-timing and need to take more stuff with me, or have the financial luxury to have a dedicated tow vehicle I don't drive in town and get an HD truck. If you're making your truck stop the trailer, you're doing it wrong.

"Fade" has meaning. "Heating" and "fade" are not the same thing, as long as the brakes continue to be able to dissipate enough energy to decelerate at least as well as the tires can transmit to pavement, there's no fade. I've never heated my brakes to the point of fading while towing a travel trailer, not on the previous '07 half-ton nor the current '17. I did manage to get the brakes hot on the old work truck I used in high school, and on a '71 Skylark convertible going down 2222 to Lake Travis with all the seats full... Drum brakes were notorious for fade.

It's funny to be so concerned about safety if you're reading and commenting on internet threads while driving.
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Old 04-01-2021, 11:20 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
I said that repeatedly in tests, braking performance has been found to be similar. Find me tests that support your opinion. They've gotta be out there, right? Yet when publications make the comparisons, they don't find it. Maybe overloaded trucks with poorly-maintained trailers where the brakes don't work... Frankly I'm going to continue to maintain my trailer brakes, even if I get to a place where I'm full- or half-timing and need to take more stuff with me, or have the financial luxury to have a dedicated tow vehicle I don't drive in town and get an HD truck. If you're making your truck stop the trailer, you're doing it wrong.



"Fade" has meaning. "Heating" and "fade" are not the same thing, as long as the brakes continue to be able to dissipate enough energy to decelerate at least as well as the tires can transmit to pavement, there's no fade. I've never heated my brakes to the point of fading while towing a travel trailer, not on the previous '07 half-ton nor the current '17. I did manage to get the brakes hot on the old work truck I used in high school, and on a '71 Skylark convertible going down 2222 to Lake Travis with all the seats full... Drum brakes were notorious for fade.



It's funny to be so concerned about safety if you're reading and commenting on internet threads while driving.


You got me , letís just say heavy traffic amazing what you can do with Technology these days
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Old 04-01-2021, 11:22 AM   #105
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But say what you may it’s our opinion , but real world driving scenario coming down a mountain as your 1500 series brakes are fading because of heating up all the while I haven’t even touched my brakes yet and then a emergency happens who’s gonna stop quicker ? 1500 beside of a 2500 with no load behind it sure the 1500 will out perform stopping . But throw 7,000- 10,000 pounds behind it your telling me the 2500 won’t stop quicker ? Come on now ....
It's no use arguing this....for those who have "not" had a "real experience" to be able to compare towing a larger AS with an F150 EB vs the F250 6.7L while going up/down/around in the mountains at 60-65, cruise control and auto engine brake engaged. They will never understand the advantage the larger TV brings to the task. Forget the semi's sucking while passing the smaller TV/AS combo...you just can't convince someone who doesn't own the larger 3/4T TV with diesel, of the advantages while towing- not to mention the control and extra payload advantage, IMHO.
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Old 04-01-2021, 11:25 AM   #106
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It's no use arguing this....for those who have "not" had a "real experience" to be able to compare towing a larger AS with an F150 EB vs the F250 6.7L while going up/down/around in the mountains at 60-65, cruise control and auto engine brake engaged. They will never understand the advantage the larger TV brings to the task. Forget the semi's sucking while passing the smaller TV/AS combo...you just can't convince someone who doesn't own the larger 3/4T TV with diesel, of the advantages while towing- not to mention the control and extra payload advantage, IMHO.


Agreed , I remember my first Beer
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Old 04-01-2021, 11:40 AM   #107
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In response to a few people saying that a 1500 could stop quicker loaded than a Cummins , F250 , or Duramax Heavy duty ... I would highly disagree and one reason is the Exhaust break is the game Changer with these heavy duty trucks , itís literally like having a whole extra truck with stopping power along with your breaks and the trailer breaks . This is something that you have to drive to experience , I can come down the steepest mountain with my trailer and literally never have to touch my breaks . And the best thing about it is itís automatic so as soon as I let off the gas to grab that break peddle itís putting double force slowing you down . Its really one of the best features , and the stability you get at highway speeds alone are very noticeable.
You have to remember that a diesel has no inherent engine brakes without an exhaust brake fitted. It's really nothing special and makes up for a diesels shortcomings.

You're assuming half tons and gassers can't engine brake effectively. Mine does it with aplomb with no need for physical brake application even on extreme grades. In fact, I'm in the Rockies now.

If your half ton experience is as you describe, it's because it was optioned as a glorified passenger truck without the tow options that give it the necessary grit. Versus again HD trucks that are already spec'd with gearing that assumed heavier loads.

That is again the crux, 1/2 ton experience with passenger car credentials. Of course the tow experience is compromised.
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Old 04-01-2021, 12:02 PM   #108
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You have to remember that a diesel has no inherent engine brakes without an exhaust brake fitted. It's really nothing special and makes up for a diesels shortcomings.

You're assuming half tons and gassers can't engine brake effectively. Mine does it with aplomb with no need for physical brake application even on extreme grades. In fact, I'm in the Rockies now.

If your half ton experience is as you describe, it's because it was optioned as a glorified passenger truck without the tow options that give it the necessary grit. Versus again HD trucks that are already spec'd with gearing that assumed heavier loads.

That is again the crux, 1/2 ton experience with passenger car credentials. Of course the tow experience is compromised.
This is incorrect. The 6.7 Ford Powerstroke in tow/haul mode has the same engine brake function as the F-150 in tow haul. The low end torque from the engine/transmission combination allows for engine braking on grades/ etc but at lower RPM than F150ís 6 cylinder turbo. This is separate from the exhaust brake function on the diesels. That adds a completely different element. So to say that diesels have no engine brake function outside of the exhaust brake is false.
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Old 04-01-2021, 12:55 PM   #109
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This is incorrect. The 6.7 Ford Powerstroke in tow/haul mode has the same engine brake function as the F-150 in tow haul. The low end torque from the engine/transmission combination allows for engine braking on grades/ etc but at lower RPM than F150’s 6 cylinder turbo. This is separate from the exhaust brake function on the diesels. That adds a completely different element. So to say that diesels have no engine brake function outside of the exhaust brake is false.
Engine brakes are implemented in many ways on Diesels. That's fine and dandy. To be sure, there are some passenger car type diesels that have no effective engine brakes, and without any options for it. Again, it is something that has to be added onto a diesels basic architecture.

The assumption was that gassers can't engine brake. Couldn't be more wrong as that's an inherent part of their architecture. What I'm getting at is tow packages are important for effective gearing that maximizes engine braking (and hauling performance). Ticking that tow package box can make all the difference when towing heavier weights with a 1/2 ton. Otherwise, it is fitted with economy gearing and softer springs for ride comfort. Things that matter and that are often overlooked by potential buyers or owners that aren't informed assuming all 1/2 tons tow the same. Vice the easy button HD truck that generally already comes configured for heavier loads. It's no wonder it tows that much better?!
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Old 04-01-2021, 01:51 PM   #110
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Braking. Semi-trucks go down the road all the time. But the brakes on the truck don’t stop the entire semi with trailer. They also have brakes on the trailer. Simple. TFL truck is great for their tests. They use a 9,000lb trailer with a 1/2 ton and look at how many times they have to apply the brakes on the 8% decent. Most 1/2 tons require about 8 to 10 brake applications. This slows the pickup to the safe speed going down the hill. My Airstream fully loaded is 7600lbs. Most of the time it is about 7,000lb. So on an 8% grade I probably will not have to apply the brakes 8 to 10 times. In fact I checked this out. Outside of LaCross, WI is a long steep descending hill. At least an 8% grade. It is at least a 2 or 3 miles long. I started down the hill at 55mph in tow haul mode. I didn’t have to apply the brakes one time on that stretch. Engine brake worked perfectly. Now a larger trailer would have been different I’m sure. But for my combination my F150 worked flawlessly. I didn’t need a diesel. I think the main thing is to start down a steep incline under control in the first place.

Now having said this I’m sure if you are camping in the Rockies there will be nastier descents. And I’m sure that having a diesel would be wonderful. But the reason I don’t have a diesel is that I doubt I’ll ever get to the rockies on a regular basis. PLUS my son has a new Ram Cummins 3500 to pull is 36’ camper. He owes me. I told him today if I ever make a trip to the rockies we are switching trucks. Nothing like an ace in the hole.
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Old 04-01-2021, 04:35 PM   #111
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An endless debate! We pull our 30 with a F-150 eco boost max tow package and it does great. (8000 or so miles so far in all kinds of terrain and weather.) Two considerations: a 250 would give you a lot more payload. And we use the ProPride hitch. Would not tow without it and have doubts about how a
1/2 ton truck would do with a big trailer without it.
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Old 04-02-2021, 06:08 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
It's no use arguing this....for those who have "not" had a "real experience" to be able to compare towing a larger AS with an F150 EB vs the F250 6.7L while going up/down/around in the mountains at 60-65, cruise control and auto engine brake engaged. They will never understand the advantage the larger TV brings to the task. Forget the semi's sucking while passing the smaller TV/AS combo...you just can't convince someone who doesn't own the larger 3/4T TV with diesel, of the advantages while towing- not to mention the control and extra payload advantage, IMHO.
I imagine that this situation is clearly easier in a 1 ton diesel. However itís got to be less than 1% of our total miles. Maybe even less than 1% of our towing miles. Meanwhile put the half ton gasser in second gear, keep it slow, and thereís just not a problem. My trailer brakes have always worked. Weíve done many many passes.
I for one, know towing in the mountains would be easier with a one ton diesel, but itís just not a big enough reason to switch. Itís just not that difficult or dangerous with a half ton. I need a better reason to switch than what if my trailer brakes go out. Itís like the folks that say you have to have two AC units in case one quits.
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Old 04-02-2021, 06:21 AM   #113
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YEP...just what you want...no awareness of the trailer behind you...NOT.

Good luck with that.��

Bob
����
Thanks for that conflating that.

Awareness has nothing to do with my statement.

The decision on a 25 FBQ was I could pull it just fine with my 1500. I would have been over the numbers with what I take with me unless I went RB International or FC or other. Since we preferred the rear dinette with wrap window I could have gone either way, but the wear on the truck would have been much greater.

Pushing the numbers seemed to be a 'less than optimal' situation.

I was 'aware' of that...
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Old 04-02-2021, 06:47 AM   #114
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Hi

While we are on brakes .... they errr can break.

The wonder brakes on your Airstream are not in the same league as what goes on a modern tow vehicle. You do *not* want to do a significant amount of your braking with them. If you do, they break and you get to pull the wheels and replace them.

In this case the failure was not worn pads. The entire mechanism disintegrated. Again - it happened multiple times. From talking to local mechanics, this is not uncommon on the setup used.

I had the controller cranked up a ways and proved this quite conclusively on our Classic. Just to be *sure* of the data, I only pulled it back a bit and duplicated it on another set of brakes. Since I cut the setting in half ... no problems.

No set of brakes last forever. You *should* get more than 10K miles out of a set ....

Bob
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Old 04-02-2021, 06:52 AM   #115
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What i have not seen mention in this post is the size of the fuel tank. IMO the bigger the better. I took out my 28 gallon tank and replaced it with a 50 + gallon tank. It was one of the best investments I made a lot fewer stops for fuel. Now I am not sure what size fuel tanks come in todays vehicles however at 9 to 12 miles a gallon towing do you really want to look for a gas station every couple of hundred miles. Just my opinion
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Old 04-02-2021, 06:59 AM   #116
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Engine brakes are implemented in many ways on Diesels. That's fine and dandy. To be sure, there are some passenger car type diesels that have no effective engine brakes, and without any options for it. Again, it is something that has to be added onto a diesels basic architecture.

The assumption was that gassers can't engine brake. Couldn't be more wrong as that's an inherent part of their architecture. What I'm getting at is tow packages are important for effective gearing that maximizes engine braking (and hauling performance). Ticking that tow package box can make all the difference when towing heavier weights with a 1/2 ton. Otherwise, it is fitted with economy gearing and softer springs for ride comfort. Things that matter and that are often overlooked by potential buyers or owners that aren't informed assuming all 1/2 tons tow the same. Vice the easy button HD truck that generally already comes configured for heavier loads. It's no wonder it tows that much better?!
I would strongly agree on this point. The 2014 1500 Sierra I had was WONDERFUL with the engine brake engaged going down steep passes with the 20FC behind us. You more often had to disengage it because it worked too well!
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Old 04-02-2021, 07:04 AM   #117
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Hi

While we are on brakes .... they errr can break.

The wonder brakes on your Airstream are not in the same league as what goes on a modern tow vehicle. You do *not* want to do a significant amount of your braking with them. If you do, they break and you get to pull the wheels and replace them.

In this case the failure was not worn pads. The entire mechanism disintegrated. Again - it happened multiple times. From talking to local mechanics, this is not uncommon on the setup used.

I had the controller cranked up a ways and proved this quite conclusively on our Classic. Just to be *sure* of the data, I only pulled it back a bit and duplicated it on another set of brakes. Since I cut the setting in half ... no problems.

No set of brakes last forever. You *should* get more than 10K miles out of a set ....

Bob
I don't agree with your strategy, Bob. I just replaced the brakes on a 15 year old car hauler trailer because I was having to turn the gain up to get them to work well. Replacing them was easy and not very expensive (I did the work myself). I would rather use them as recommended and replace them when needed than not use them to their best ability.
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Old 04-02-2021, 07:43 AM   #118
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Ford offers two new tools that clear this all up

For those who want a Ford, the final word in what kind of truck is required:

https://fordfleetlive.com/#/TowingCalculator

Also a place to type in your VIN and see the actual numbers for that vehicle... given that most online dealers listings have a VIN this should be helpful too
https://fordfleetlive.com/#/VinCalculator

I plugged in the numbers for a maxed out 25’ airstream with 15% tongue weight by GVW, put enough payload for 350lbs of people, 500lbs of gear and a 300 lbs topper (about right for one that fits the micro-length beds of 4x4 crew cabs and the Ford tool indicates there are F-150 and higher trucks that will work in Platinum level trim... no idea how hard it would be to find such a unicorn but they claim they are out there.


All other truck manufacturers need to step up this level. Kudos to Ford here.
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Old 04-02-2021, 08:11 AM   #119
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Thank you for the entertainment!

The debate on HD vs half tons is always entertaining. Almost like within the half ton community debating why Tundras are great for towing heavy loads = NOT (usually low payloads).
Reliability and durability = YES

I think the OP could just look at the weights and make his decision.
* GCVW
* RAWR
* Payload - has anyone seen an F150 with the HDPP on a dealers lot? I understand these packages can offer around 2,000 lbs of payload. (E.g. our F250 2 wheel drive Lariat has a payload of 3,500+ lbs).
* Size of gas tank = miles between fillups based on MPG. Interesting spec. F150 with tow pkg includes a 36 gallon tank and an F250 has a 34 gallon tank, unless you select the 8foot bed, when you get a 40+ gallon tank. Biggest benefit of a larger tank is perhaps the opportunity to park your trailer and then go to a gas station without the trailer behind at the end of a ďtow dayĒ? Personally, I have had most senior men agree with me that our bladder endurance is about two hours!

* Another very scientific test for my family: ďIs my wife willing to towĒ? With the F150 she hated the semiís ďpushĒ or ďsuctionĒ as they passed this slow moving combo, (we drive at 65MPH and we all know the semiís are going at least 70MPH), and would not drive while towing. With the F250 she drives up to 3 hours at a time since the push/suction is minimized!

Diesel vs gas = no winners in this discussion. IF you are towing most of the year, diesels are great, but as I have shared in the past, my nephew who works with the service departments for FCA (RAM) recommends to his dealers that they should not push diesels for infrequent towers, since they are having a lot of Warranty work on the pollution control systems for infrequent towers. I love my gas F250 and the passes in Colorado allow us to slowly climb and enjoy the view of some of the most spectacular mountains in the country! Descents are similar, with judicious use of transmission, trailer brakes/TV brakes. Not sure what the value of getting to the top or bottom of the mountain a few minutes before me as the diesel TVís blast by me at the speed limit? Similar process is used in the N. Georgia mountains where you all should have visited the Top of Georgia Airstream park!
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Old 04-02-2021, 04:11 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by mtbackpacker View Post
For those who want a Ford, the final word in what kind of truck is required:

https://fordfleetlive.com/#/TowingCalculator

Also a place to type in your VIN and see the actual numbers for that vehicle... given that most online dealers listings have a VIN this should be helpful too
https://fordfleetlive.com/#/VinCalculator

I plugged in the numbers for a maxed out 25í airstream with 15% tongue weight by GVW, put enough payload for 350lbs of people, 500lbs of gear and a 300 lbs topper (about right for one that fits the micro-length beds of 4x4 crew cabs and the Ford tool indicates there are F-150 and higher trucks that will work in Platinum level trim... no idea how hard it would be to find such a unicorn but they claim they are out there.


All other truck manufacturers need to step up this level. Kudos to Ford here.
Is this calculator deducting the full tongue weight of the loaded trailer from payload? For a 25 it should be at the very least 900lbs. If itís not accounting for this this itís wrong. Iíve e never seen a Platinum F150 north of 1500 lbs payload capacity. Even at 1500 lbs payload add up the Ďs you describe and itís over by a good margin
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