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Old 08-22-2021, 02:18 PM   #21
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We have friends who have a maroon 2021 Range Rover. We got to ride in the back seat. I became constipated. I wondered where the rest of the car was... for the trouble it took to get that color and what it cost them.

Very comfortable seats... if you want to know.

An ATV carrying four people is longer than the Range Rover. Those do not tow anything well... the ATV's, but a lot cheaper.

While driving around in their neighborhood, I asked them to slow down... there was something in the road. It was a cute 15 inch, more or less Rattlesnake crossing. I asked the driver to stop so I could pick it up and put it back into the grassy area it was slithering from.

... they have not spoke to us for a bit. She was not constipated after this event. Yep... I am sure. I did not have a camera as I would like to show you I am not afraid of snakes.

Wyoming has lots of Rattlesnakes. They are harmless unless you STEP on one.... Fishing along a Creek in Wyoming has its risks... this is one.

Oh... this was in Reno, Nevada. They have rattlesnakes... no kidding. Our friends did not belileve me... at first.

I could have had a pocket of fishing worms and showed them and probably still not hear back from them. Good worms are getting expensive... You have to grab them when you can.

I do not expect a Christmas Card, either.
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

All forums ( not just this one ) can become "echo chambers". If the advice being echoed is good / correct then that's great. Here, just like everyplace else, not all the things that are echoed are correct. That's just how the beast works. Sorting the good from the bad is part of using a forum for advice.

Your buddy at Costco could have just as easily sat down next to some guy named Bob at a campground and gotten a raft of bunk that way. That used to be the most common way to head down the wrong rabbit hole.

I do see Airstream and some of the dealers putting up more videos to answer basic questions. Many of them are the same topics covered in a walk through. Anybody who can remember more than half what was presented in those three hours must have a video of the process .

Some (both here and other places) suggest a WIKI is the way to "correct" this problem. The gotcha there is the WIKI simply becomes an image of the popular echo. It is no more or less accurate than this or that thread.

No real answer other than to cast your research net a bit wider than this or that individual thread or source.

The tow vehicle size issue occasionaly becomes an example of "I already bought this and it *must* work in the application". That's a bit different than an echo. It's more a person who has boxed in the situation so there is only one answer. Unfortunately that does not always make the answer correct. Since they are boxed in, the last thing they want to do is realize they made the wrong choice. Tons and tons of threads showing this.

Yes, you can hotrod just about anything, very few folks do that properly on a DIY basis. The discussion of this or that "silver bullet" is fine and worthwhile. Getting people to face up to and understand the number of fiddly details can be exciting. You see a lot of threads where people have gotten this or that part way right and found that this isn't far enough. One would *think* that a forum setup could do better in this regard.

So lots of twists and lots of turns ....

Bob
A good place for me to jump in..
Our very first AS was a 2012 - 27' International sold as a 28'. Within a year my wife insisted on trading it for a 30' .
The tow vehicle we bought for the first trailer was a 2012 F150 ECO BOOST.
It handled the 28 ok but there was occasional bullying.
The sales agent assured me that the F150 would work just fine with the 30'.
That in addition to reading a number of articles by CANAM gurus that smaler was better made me stay with the half ton and that I loved the truck.
In short order I realized the truck was being bullied and was marginal at best for the trailer.
For two years I struggled with it installing air bags ( huge mistake ) playing with the suspension, two different hitches of course nothing made it better.
Finally my wife visited someone with a 30' Classic and that was the end of the International.
I made a deal with her, she gets the classic and I get the
the F-250 Powerstroke.
I began to enjoy traveling again.
The moral of the story is I was going agains my instincts accepting advice from people I thought were experienced at something I thought I wasn't and I lied to myself to justify hanging on to the truck.
Mind you I spent 40 years in the Infrastructure construction business constantly dealing with moving heavy equipment and material owning two lowboys and 15 semi dumps.
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Old 08-23-2021, 08:25 AM   #23
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Common Sense versus Dollars and Cents...

Bought a Light Weight tow vehicle and need a Heavy Weight?

Run an Ad on the Airforums that you will work out a deal on your mistake for their mistake.

Some people in the 19th Century had two horses to pull a wagon. Later they get a Light Weight One Horse wagon... and had one horse too many.

Here you are with a Pony. You offer the Pony. They have a young son who could handle a Pony and would trade to you their Horse.

Come to 2021. You have a Pony that cannot pull the Airstream you purchased. Offer it on the Airforums for a Horse that can pull your Airstream... which someone's Horse was overkill for their single axle Airstream.

Both owners made a mistake in the Pony and Horse choices. Neither want to loose money, selling at a loss and then buying the other at another loss.

So get your Pony/Horse, offer it on the Airforums for a Horse/Pony. If you do not know how to "Horse Trade"... go to a Dealer. They will 'fix you up'. Loss on the trade in and a loss covering the profit on the one sitting on the lot.

If you cannot understand how to Barter, Horse Trade or use Logic...

Tough. You are among those who 'Pay the Piper', as usual... and it is not even your funeral.
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Old 08-29-2021, 09:48 AM   #24
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Is there a point to this thread, other than trolling 1/2 ton truck owners?
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:35 PM   #25
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What I don’t understand is why not? Why not improve a 1/2 ton to tow better? Why switch trucks If your current 1/2 ton tows great. If it goes anywhere without a problem, why change TVs? Plus, I’m curious, why do you care so much? Is this a noble effort to protect the public from a dangerous situation? I’m 67 yrs old. I’ve been pulling trailers since I was 35. I’ve pulled a trailer that was severely overloaded. I know what it feels like to have a trailer dictate what’s happening next. We had a 23FB for many years. I know one guy that was afraid to even pull a 23 with a half ton. You guys have got some new owners running to the scales if they go to the bathroom. Our half ton pulled the 23 fine. When we went to a 25FB I could sure feel the difference. So I added a Roadmaster Active Suspension, 20” E rated tires, and Bilstein shocks. I’ve been in my son’s F250 gasser (2019) when he’s hauling his Jeep it feels about the same as my Tundra pulling the 25FB.
Maybe folks actually believe the statement that guys with big trucks can’t even feel the trailer. I can feel my trailer. But I can also feel it following me everywhere I go.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:40 PM   #26
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For me, it’s more about having the right tool for the job. My 1/2 ton handles my 23FB beautifully. If I bought a bigger Airstream, I’d buy a bigger truck to tow it. The question for many is: when do I need to step up to a bigger truck? That’s the source of endless debates.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
Is there a point to this thread, other than trolling 1/2 ton truck owners?
Agreed. This thread should be called, “Anyone that uses a 1/2 Ton is a moron.”

Heck, if bigger is always better then get a freightliner. Won’t even NEED a WDH.
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Old 08-29-2021, 01:45 PM   #28
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Simple human nature. “I tow with a 3/4 ton+ and I am smarter, more virile and knowledgeable than you so, if you use any other vehicle, you are simply displaying your inadequacy”.

I have a “5/8” ton. It tows very nicely. But, so did my previous 1/2 ton. Sure, I couldn’t (and can’t) take along my bowling ball or Mosler safe collection, but I was never out of spec and never had a “white knuckle” moment.

I don’t get the whole “I don’t even know it’s back there” mentality. The fact that I am operating a 52’ long articulated vehicle is something I feel I should be aware of. Just sayin’…
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Old 08-29-2021, 04:21 PM   #29
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Towing since 1957 at the age of SEVEN... beat that

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
Is there a point to this thread, other than trolling 1/2 ton truck owners?
******

Not true at all. I did not mention any tow vehicle. I learned several lessons by taking bad advice from mostly older folk my parents hung around with.

I have been towing since 1957. It was a nice red wagon. I could haul my younger brother and sister on the graveled street and down the hill... this was Somers, Montana and they had no sidewalks, except for a wood sidewalk. The lumber mill installed it... downtown. There was a General Store. Dirt roads in town. We were living on Pikes Peak Road. Not for the weak hearted... either. Trust me.

Once I grew up... I could pull heavier things and with leverage... move hundreds of pounds of rock for landscaping the yard, with a Wheel Barrow. An upgrade from a wagon. Rocks are never close to your yard. Something I learned by looking for them... never to be found, closer to home.

Had bad advice on how to 'load a wheel barrow', too. You load the FRONT end and less towards the handles. Bad advice is rampant even with wheel barrows!

OK... are you following me? I had a 1967 Bronco 4x4. Used and better than a wheel barrow. Rather a light weight, but towed nothing and hauled fossils from the Badlands of western Nebraska. Maybe a few mechanical slot machines... if they were priced right in the 1972 to 1977 years.

Then a 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup 4x4 V8 (1978) a real... dog. Four speed, clutch and a mechanical junker new from the factory after 12,000 miles, 12 month warranty.

Went to Toyota in 1981. Large truck to a... tiny truck. The finest vehicles on Earth. Had 'Eat Your Import' bumper stickers tossed in my driveway and literature about my purchase. This was a GM town with a factory somewhere in the area. Last mini was the 2006, that Canadians were paying a premium in the Oil Patch... and bye bye in 2008.

I put one Eat Your Import bumper sticker on my rear end. Rear end of the small pickup, that is... why waste a good bumper sticker?

Got into the straight SIX Land Cruiser and the 4.7L LC's and the 5.7L LC's were great... but not for towing. A family cushy ride and rode like a loaded pickup! Ohhhhh Weeee. My wife arm wrestled me... won... and they were all her Drivers. Not mine.

I keep getting heavier tow vehicles... and as they were made... I discovered them were at a Dealer's Lot, why make the same mistake, over and over and expect something different?

Bought a 2008 Tundra 4x4 and never looked back with the 23 foot Airstream. The 25... flat springs and kept the Tundra's up to 2012. FLAT and too light weight and borderline fully loaded in the Rocky Mountains and Off Grid Grades... Pulled great... but the at its limit... for me.

Found this new on the lot, unsold, 2016 F350 Diesel Turbo 4x4 on the Ford Lot in 2017, even though I wanted 2017 F250 and skip the F150 as it would have been no better than the Tundra. I would have kept the Tundra in that event.

Now towing the 25 Foot International with the F350... was a Jet Ski on asphalt. Now the 2019 27 foot International, fully loaded on the Interstate Highways, can blow by anybody and anyone else... uphill. Downhill... Diesel Braking is a bit helpful. But I like to keep my driver's license clean... although Utah is 80mph all day. Wyoming not much different.

I have figured it out, cut out the mistakes of listening to others. I got a good deal on the Diesel... and trade... but I still think I have the perfect towing vehicle...now. With 69,010 miles... a sweet ride FULL TOWING or just looking for Corvettes to blow them off... if they were towing.

A Dually? Not for me. Cowboys love them but they can haul Cattle out West. Even I have my limits... and this is one of them. Two Blue Heelers in pet porters on the back seat... works for me.

The Orange Crush... lived west of Castle Rock some years ago. They may need to put some Wheel Barrows on the Defensive Line... Loaded with rock or Fresh Oranges to toss at spectators.
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Old 08-29-2021, 06:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
******

Not true at all. I did not mention any tow vehicle. I learned several lessons by taking bad advice from mostly older folk my parents hung around with.

I have been towing since 1957. It was a nice red wagon. I could haul my younger brother and sister on the graveled street and down the hill... this was Somers, Montana and they had no sidewalks, except for a wood sidewalk. The lumber mill installed it... downtown. There was a General Store. Dirt roads in town. We were living on Pikes Peak Road. Not for the weak hearted... either. Trust me.

Once I grew up... I could pull heavier things and with leverage... move hundreds of pounds of rock for landscaping the yard, with a Wheel Barrow. An upgrade from a wagon. Rocks are never close to your yard. Something I learned by looking for them... never to be found, closer to home.

Had bad advice on how to 'load a wheel barrow', too. You load the FRONT end and less towards the handles. Bad advice is rampant even with wheel barrows!

OK... are you following me? I had a 1967 Bronco 4x4. Used and better than a wheel barrow. Rather a light weight, but towed nothing and hauled fossils from the Badlands of western Nebraska. Maybe a few mechanical slot machines... if they were priced right in the 1972 to 1977 years.

Then a 3/4 ton Chevy Pickup 4x4 V8 (1978) a real... dog. Four speed, clutch and a mechanical junker new from the factory after 12,000 miles, 12 month warranty.

Went to Toyota in 1981. Large truck to a... tiny truck. The finest vehicles on Earth. Had 'Eat Your Import' bumper stickers tossed in my driveway and literature about my purchase. This was a GM town with a factory somewhere in the area. Last mini was the 2006, that Canadians were paying a premium in the Oil Patch... and bye bye in 2008.

I put one Eat Your Import bumper sticker on my rear end. Rear end of the small pickup, that is... why waste a good bumper sticker?

Got into the straight SIX Land Cruiser and the 4.7L LC's and the 5.7L LC's were great... but not for towing. A family cushy ride and rode like a loaded pickup! Ohhhhh Weeee. My wife arm wrestled me... won... and they were all her Drivers. Not mine.

I keep getting heavier tow vehicles... and as they were made... I discovered them were at a Dealer's Lot, why make the same mistake, over and over and expect something different?

Bought a 2008 Tundra 4x4 and never looked back with the 23 foot Airstream. The 25... flat springs and kept the Tundra's up to 2012. FLAT and too light weight and borderline fully loaded in the Rocky Mountains and Off Grid Grades... Pulled great... but the at its limit... for me.

Found this new on the lot, unsold, 2016 F350 Diesel Turbo 4x4 on the Ford Lot in 2017, even though I wanted 2017 F250 and skip the F150 as it would have been no better than the Tundra. I would have kept the Tundra in that event.

Now towing the 25 Foot International with the F350... was a Jet Ski on asphalt. Now the 2019 27 foot International, fully loaded on the Interstate Highways, can blow by anybody and anyone else... uphill. Downhill... Diesel Braking is a bit helpful. But I like to keep my driver's license clean... although Utah is 80mph all day. Wyoming not much different.

I have figured it out, cut out the mistakes of listening to others. I got a good deal on the Diesel... and trade... but I still think I have the perfect towing vehicle...now. With 69,010 miles... a sweet ride FULL TOWING or just looking for Corvettes to blow them off... if they were towing.

A Dually? Not for me. Cowboys love them but they can haul Cattle out West. Even I have my limits... and this is one of them. Two Blue Heelers in pet porters on the back seat... works for me.

The Orange Crush... lived west of Castle Rock some years ago. They may need to put some Wheel Barrows on the Defensive Line... Loaded with rock or Fresh Oranges to toss at spectators.
Thanks for answering my question.
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:26 PM   #31
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We bought the truck first, a 2020 F-150. At the time we were searching for a 23FB Flying Cloud or a Basecamp 20X. The F-150 would have been plenty for us in that configuration: two adults weighing 270# total, tongue weight, light gear. We knew that my Lexus IS-350C couldn’t pull a trailer…any trailer. Geez, it’s practically a two-seater.

But when we found a gently used (if ever) 25FB International we entered the gray area between a half ton and a three-quarter ton. Lots of folks make the half ton work. Maybe they ignore the scale. Maybe their truck is a lighter trim model like the XL instead of the Lariat. Maybe they travel lighter. Maybe they don’t mind moving gear back and forth between the trailer and the truck bed. It was simply a little too much compromise for us.

One critical factor for us is that we don’t have to use the truck as a daily driver. If we did, I’d be more inclined to tolerate the compromises. A few trips to HD but the 6.5 foot bed (compromise on the other end) could come in handy in that scenario.

I accept delivery of my 2022 F-250 in a few weeks and will report back the differences as others have done in the past…being careful to eschew from engaging in confirmation bias, I hope. I mean, I paid a premium to move from a 2020 F-150 to a 2022 F-250; I kinda wanna be right about the pricey move.
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Old 08-29-2021, 07:57 PM   #32
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Move Over Gampa... Gas Guzzlers are Passing

Fungus would make a great reference for those of you who want to convince the spouse... you are correct... and need go get out of Light and into Beefier, whatever brand tow vehicle it may be.

For Safety... of course.

Also great resale potential to those who already have a lighter tow vehicle, they cannot sell for much... as there are lots of them driving around, getting their tiny tires and teeny turbos... worn out from Monarch Pass in Colorado. But the sun roof and stereo are top of the line.

I like driving the F350 Tank on Michelins around town. Those tires came stock on the F350 were Michelins.

Find those on a 1/2 ton? Of course not. Those lighter vehicles are for taking soft ball players to the park. They need a soft ride from the game... 36 to 5 makes one sensitive to stiff leaf springs.

When anyone goes to sell their Beafier 3/4 ton or a 3/4 ton with $200 for two leaf springs to get it called a "1" Ton... they SELL FAST. The lighter vehicles are everywhere. But these hunks of frame, leaf springs, axles and a Silver Tank in tow... Ohhhh Weeee. Move over Grampa... as I had to do in the past, and let the fuel guzzling overweights pass.

After 60,010 miles my rear tires are worn about 50% and am having NEW Michelins put on Monday. Towing puts a lot of extra weight on the REAR END of your Tow Vehicle. If your Rear End was having to carry that much excess weight... you would be a Light Weight Truck... needing to BUFF UP at the GYM.

Well, Fungus and I do not have to Buff UP. We are already Buffed.

I had a flat head four banger in a 1962, which was good looking... but so light weight that top end was... maybe 45mph. Did not see that coming. I should have test drove it on the Interstate... not a back lot with huge dirt piles. First example of buying for... looks.

Just having some fun. I owned a Tiny Toyota Truck probably a 1/4 ton that squatted, when a rock hammer was put into the rear bed and 500 pounds of antique slot machine parts... But when I sold it... first buyer and his mother drove off with it. After paying me, of course.
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Old 08-30-2021, 08:22 AM   #33
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Great Sound System, Leather Interior, AC Seats... ?

Cushy options have nothing to do with pulling a Trailer, a Boat or a couple of ATV's behind a Tow Vehicle.

Options are like what the Soft Drink companies tell a Service Station store manager: ICE is PROFIT. (I know, I worked for a short time for a Soft Drink company.)

If anyone can take a Hitch and their current Tow Vehicle combination and it works... Success. You are happy and content. Perfect.

I saw a Navigator having tires replaced. The shocker... THE BRAKE ROTORS. Take a look some day if you happen to see some vehicles on a lift with the wheels off. Brakes vary on different vehicles... Toyota Tundra's rotors in the full sized 5.7L engine models of 2007 to now... BIG.

Brakes are important for going DOWN. Engines, Transmissions and Rear End Gears are important for going UP.

Tires... comfortable ride? Stable towing? Excess capacity? You choose one or more reasons.

These are the basics. If you are satisfied... that is all it takes. You are right and the others are also RIGHT. When the smell of hot brakes or the Transmission temperature, Engine temperature begin to climb faster than your getting onto the top of a Pass... maybe too much weight, too little engine cooling... or a combination.

Preaching to the Choir? Of course. If you enjoy reading other people's experiences, like I do... you have checked everything off like you should. Do I or others care what you have chosen? Not really. But... enjoy the conversations in the comfort of your home with these posts.

I have seen most Trailer's in Tow with TIRE problems or towing on the Ball with the trailer all over the lane. Nor a tow vehicle dragging the rear bumper or the hood up and stranded off the side of the road.

I have seen a number of Roll Overs in the median of tow vehicle and trailer combinations. I do not stop and take photographs like a tour guide pointing out Bison at Yellowstone Park.

No one is selling anything. Experience is expensive. When the Banana's Hit the Fan... make Banana Butter. Your choices eventually prove you. Right, Wrong or a combination.

When I hear "I have been towing for 500 years..." sit down, heat up some Pop Corn and be entertained. Let's not get into important points like Braking Systems on your trailer and how to figure out if they are working, or not.

This will be my last post on this Thread. So far no affirmation that trailer owners make the best decisions, with input from others, other than themselves, trailer sales staff, the truck dealership or the credit union working out the monthly payments.
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Old 08-30-2021, 09:01 AM   #34
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Do you carry a Credit Card? Over kill?
No
Yes
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