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Old 10-20-2018, 01:07 PM   #41
jcl
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All this discussion of bio diesel, and no mention of renewable diesel?

Our municipal fleet (City of Vancouver) switched over 100% of their fleet from B5 to R100 earlier this year.

No issues with warranties, the renewable diesel meets the same fuel spec as fossil diesel (unlike bio diesel).

No loss of fuel efficiency, the R100 is chemically the same as fossil diesel, but it burns cleaner. Lower GHG emissions.

Renewable diesel is produced from waste organic stocks, as with bio diesel, but the process is different.

We are seeing a shift to it in fleet use, and I know that California has done a lot of work in that regard. Here, the largest producer is Suncor (PetroCanada stations).

Is nobody seeing R100 fuel at the pump yet?


Links to Gladstein, and the US Department of Energy page on alternative fuel data:

https://www.gladstein.org/the-potent...duty-vehicles/

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/em...drocarbon.html
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:03 AM   #42
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Bio Diesel

In some urban areas, the biodiesel is mostly from used restaurant cooking oil and can contain salts and sugars that do not get removed during the filter process. We found that biodiesel when used in older two-stroke diesel Kawasaki mules caused large carbon deposits on the piston heads. Immediately quit using biodiesel in all our equipment.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:04 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoasteng View Post
In some urban areas, the biodiesel is mostly from used restaurant cooking oil and can contain salts and sugars that do not get removed during the filter process. We found that biodiesel when used in older two-stroke diesel Kawasaki mules caused large carbon deposits on the piston heads. Immediately quit using biodiesel in all our equipment.
Those problems are eliminated by using renewable diesel instead of biodiesel, even though both can use the used cooking oil as a component.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:48 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by suncoasteng View Post
In some urban areas, the biodiesel is mostly from used restaurant cooking oil and can contain salts and sugars that do not get removed during the filter process. We found that biodiesel when used in older two-stroke diesel Kawasaki mules caused large carbon deposits on the piston heads. Immediately quit using biodiesel in all our equipment.
We were getting used oil from the Chinese restaurant during the high diesel fuel price period (2005?) There were several altercations of people trying to pump out the tanks. My old 6.2 would run on anything back then. I had heated tanks and could switch to diesel for warm up and waste oil after it was warm. Now I pay $0.50 more per gallon than gasoline and don’t even check the price. Times change...
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Old 10-23-2018, 06:31 AM   #45
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suncoasting

I hate to used a term from Trump , but here we are - FAKE NEWS .
Generally what you get at the pump is not going to be used fryer oil - mainly because there is not enough volume and the logistics cost too much .
And even if some used fryer oil makes it into the base / feedstock , the BIO DIESE process removes any & all impurities " salt sugar " ect.
Come on use a little JUST A LITTLE common SENSE & critical thinking skills , no longer taught .
What comes out of a fuel stations pumps is highly regulated , and regularly tested , and has to pass those standards .

JCL

Show your chemistry knowledge / sources .
Bio-diesel is not chemically the same as petro-diesel .

Just calling out the BS when I see it .
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Old 10-23-2018, 10:21 AM   #46
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JohnTF is correct. Although Fake News is often due a minority wanting the majority to be and remain... ignorant.

Google a search of Biodiesel Quality Issues. There are hundreds of experts.

When will Biodiesel be used to fry potatoes, I ask? Or is it still potatos... as a plural.

- Algal Biofuels.
- Green Soybean Biofuels.
- Biodiesel Magazine for the latest news... all good, or good and some bad?
- Penn State and pros and cons of using biodiesel.
- OilPrice.com, why biodiesel may not be the miracle fuel you think.
- Who at ASTM D6751 do the testing and unbiased... rules?
- Unposted station pumps selling 5% BioDiesel is... legal and common.
- Who profits from the Bio in the Diesel?

This goes on for pages and pages... by Experts.

Once you get into this subect, it is a tar baby gorilla. The money being generated through Bio to the Diesel must be huge... although Fake News if you have no number being published and available.

Common Sense often is the best option when not sure. I was fine without Ethanol in my gasoline. I was fine without Bio in my Diesel. What changed? Not me and no doubt many who do not profit directly or indirectly from 'cooking our fuels'.

Pass the ketchup please... I smell a BioDiesel, preDEF, truck passing.

...and then DEF. I needed to have my 2016 F350 Diesel tested before being able to renew my Nevada Plates. I had ZERO given to me for whatever was being tested. Then in town older diesels are spewing black plumes of exhaust with current plates. ...hmmm. Again, I haven't time to pursue why, someone else may know.

When you discover what simple chemistry is in DEF... take the time to get this leap in man's knowledge and understanding of profit motives, added to this Thread.

Makes me feel, special. My Stone Age ancestors are rolling in their... caves.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:08 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JohnTF View Post
suncoasting

I hate to used a term from Trump , but here we are - FAKE NEWS .
Generally what you get at the pump is not going to be used fryer oil - mainly because there is not enough volume and the logistics cost too much .
And even if some used fryer oil makes it into the base / feedstock , the BIO DIESE process removes any & all impurities " salt sugar " ect.
Come on use a little JUST A LITTLE common SENSE & critical thinking skills , no longer taught .
What comes out of a fuel stations pumps is highly regulated , and regularly tested , and has to pass those standards .

JCL

Show your chemistry knowledge / sources .
Bio-diesel is not chemically the same as petro-diesel .

Just calling out the BS when I see it .
You are misinformed, but there is a lot of that going around these days. I thought FAKE NEWS meant that which didn't fit one's preconceived opinions, nothing more. It may have helped if you had read one or both of the links I provided before responding. In other words, I already provided two sources, and they link to more.

1) The bio diesel process does not remove all the problem components. That is precisely the issue. It leaves the ester compounds.

2) Bio diesel is not highly regulated. It doesn't meet the same standards as fossil diesel. They had to come up with a different standard for it, but the real world risk is that what you get out of the nozzle isn't what it says on the pump. If you don't believe that, check with vehicle service departments on fuel system failures and ask how many times they see a fuel system component failure from an engine receiving a dose of ethanol far above what the label on the pump said. Testing? Not so much.

3) I spent a long career in the diesel and natural gas engine business, in a company representing the largest diesel engine manufacturer in the world (the one in Peoria). Years ago, when dealing with factory reps on fuel issues relating to a customer's use of bio diesel, the fuel system designer told me something that stuck with me. He said that bio diesel isn't so much a thing, as an absence of a thing. It is variable. In some geographies, it is highly variable. In others, it is fairly predictable. It is an immature industry. You don't know for sure what you are going to get. That is why it is misleading when someone says "I used xx... and had no problems" and suggests implicitly or explicitly that their experience should apply equally to others. A user of biodiesel shouldn't expect to have problems, they should expect a higher probability of problems. As an example, if fuel system issues impact 1% of the fleet, and using biodiesel, it climbs to 5%, that is a higher risk, significantly. But there is still a 95% chance of no problems, so suggesting that not having problem (being in the 95%) is a proof that everything will be fine isn't logical. Critical thinking.

4) When manufacturers specify limits like B5 or B10 or B20, what they are doing is running risk calculations. Bio diesel quality and resulting equipment impacts of its use continue to be variables, and minimizing it minimizes warranty claims and upset customers.

5) Bio diesel is not the same as renewable diesel, as I posted above. Also, bio diesel is not the same as fossil diesel, as posted above. But chemically, renewable diesel is the same as fossil diesel. It doesen't appear that some here read the links, but here is an extract:

Quote:
It is important to note that RD is not “biodiesel.” While these two biofuels use similar feedstock, they differ in production and use characteristics. RD can be produced through multiple processes; the predominant pathway is to hydrotreat fats, oils and esters. Biodiesel is solely produced through esterification of fats and oils. RD is free of the ester compounds found in biodiesel, and it has a much lower aromatic content. An important advantage of RD is that it has no “blend wall.” Unlike biodiesel, high-level blends of RD (including 100 percent) are approved for use in diesel engines by most heavy-duty engine manufacturers. And, as further described below, the use of RD in diesel engines provides important environmental benefits compared to both conventional diesel and biodiesel.
That is from https://www.gladstein.org/the-potent...duty-vehicles/

Here is another:

Quote:
Renewable diesel—Also called "green" diesel, renewable diesel is a biomass-derived transportation fuel suitable for use in diesel engines. It meets the ASTM D975 specification in the United States and EN 590 in Europe.
Renewable diesel is distinct from biodiesel. While renewable diesel is chemically similar to petroleum diesel, biodiesel is a mono-alkyl ester, which has different physical properties and hence different fuel specifications (ASTM D6751 and EN 14214). The two fuels are also produced through very different processes. While biodiesel is produced via transesterification, renewable diesel is produced through various processes such as hydrotreating (isomerization), gasification, pyrolysis, and other thermochemical and biochemical means. Moreover, biodiesel is produced exclusively from lipids (such as vegetable oils, animal fats, grease, and algae), whereas renewable diesel is produced from lipids and cellulosic biomass (such as crop residues, woody biomass, and dedicated energy crops).
Full info here: https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/em...drocarbon.html

I could have typed out that detail, but it seemed easier to just quote it, with sources. I think it is important to call out BS too.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:20 PM   #48
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jcl... very powerful and done as an expert.

One thing I did or did not learn after 6 years of college and university:

Even in Geology, professors were biased and taught that bias to their students. You repeated it on exams, or paid for it later. I asked too many questions in class and was asked to find my answers at the... library. That was the end of my... formal education.

When an Oil Company hired a Geologist, fresh out of the University... the first words on the first day of employment... "Forget everything you were taught. You are now going to get your education."

I learned a lot from your post. I would have liked to believe more Petroleum Engineers owned an Airstream and would make themselves available to speak up about refining petroleum and refineries.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:36 PM   #49
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I have not seen anything labeled as renewable diesel at a pump. Is it out there?
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:58 PM   #50
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This is from the U. S. Energy Information Administration. It is important to understand the basics. www.eia.gov
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Old 10-23-2018, 03:21 PM   #51
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I have not seen anything labeled as renewable diesel at a pump. Is it out there?
That depends entirely on where you travel and buy fuel. Many of the initial contracts are for fleets in areas with air pollution concerns (ports in California with a large concentration of heavy trucks, for example).

The local fleet contracts where I live are being supplied by Suncor, so I expect to see it at PetroCanada stations going forward. There are other producers.

I think it is coming, more than being here. It is worth knowing the difference between bio diesel (not a fan) and renewable diesel (I am a supporter) as that transition happens.
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Old 10-23-2018, 03:37 PM   #52
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Propel stations carry a renewable diesel (which they call HPR) in California.

https://propelfuels.com/our_fuels


NexGen fuels is promoting their renewable diesel in the US.

Not sure what others are out there, but I would expect the list to grow.
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Old 10-24-2018, 07:16 AM   #53
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Geez, a post about biodiesel is turning a bit heated. Nevertheless, interesting info all around. I have never heard of RD - sounds like it might be a winner. Frankly, a modern diesel with DPF and SCR is extremely clean. GPFs are coming for gas vehicles too; I never cease to be amazed how the cleaner and more efficient our new vehicles get, the more regulations which are applied.
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Old 05-24-2021, 11:01 AM   #54
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JCL - Just found that UNION 76 is supposed to be selling Renewable diesel in my area. Thanks for posting the information. Renewable diesel was a major reason that I was willing to buy a diesel motorhome, but I really thought the product was years away. This is going to be interesting to investigate. Pat
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