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Old 10-17-2018, 10:03 AM   #21
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Mileage loss with bio/ethanol diesel...

I keep quite close track of mileage with each tank of diesel fuel I use. We have a 2015 BMW X3 with a nice little 2 liter Turbo diesel. In nearly 12,000 miles of towing with both real #2 diesel (somewhat ironically available everywhere here in California) and that nasty biodiesel or ethanol-infused diesel that is common in most other states all the way to Illinois, our farthest towing destination so far, I can say with some confidence that we loose about 2 mpg with the rotten stuff.

With real #2 diesel we routinely get 27.5 to 28 mpg while towing. Knock off 2 mpg and that's what happens with the rotten stuff.

The BMW specifically says NOT to use biodiesel. In AZ, I have found that you can get real #2 by leaving the highways and finding stations a short distance away. I have used a station in Buckeye several times, for example.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:04 AM   #22
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Biodiesel can work just fine. Modern diesel trucks accommodate B20 without issue. One of the #1 failure points of modern diesels is the fuel system. The advent (and mandate) of ULSD removed lubricant from the fuel. The high pressure pump needs lube or metal shavings from the pump pistons travel down the fuel rails, plug the injectors, make their way back into the fuel tank via the return, plug your filters, or worse...make their way all the way to the high pressure pump. Basically, water does the same thing. So Biodiesel provides significantly better lube, but also contains more water. I'd be OK with running it, but I'd surely change my filters more often.



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Old 10-17-2018, 10:10 AM   #23
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I just finished a 4,200 mile RT from the Gulf Coast of Alabama to Salt Lake City and back. During the trip, I did notice a marked decrease in mileage whenever I had to pump Biodiesel. Using BD, I averaged around 15-16 mpg, while running straight petroleum Diesel #2 netted 18-18.5 mpg. The trip was unusually wet and rainy both ways, and as soon as I got back, I drained my water separation filter - but with negligible (maybe a few drops) water settled out of approximately three pints of fuel drained. I credit that to the likelihood of rainwater introduced during the actual filling of the tank in rainy-windy conditions versus from the use of BD product.

Locally, I have noticed similar mileage results filling at a local-oil company station's Diesel #2 vs. Shell w/ "up to 19% Biodiesel". I started off pumping whatever was available, but have begun avoiding BD when I can.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:24 AM   #24
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Better mileage with biodiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund View Post
Pilot Station, Bellemont, Arizona I-40. Diesel $3.69. Pull in and put in credit card and get ready to pump and on a small sticker: BioDiesel. I return the pump handle, cancel. No receipt, showing $0.00.

Next station Love's in Williams, Arizona was an additional 22 miles west. Diesel $3.48.

After reading about worse mileage with BioDiesel, as soon as I saw the small sticker... I canceled. What happened next was even more interesting.

The canceling the purchase at the pump, also sent to our credit card supplier a 'suspicious transaction' and a hold was put on the card until we contacted the credit card company. It had a $150 credit approved, since Pilot also serves 18 wheeler/truck fueling. With the $0.00 used, it triggered the system to not pay that or any future charges on that card. This was discovered at the Love's pump that would not accept the card.

I used our other credit card. Nancy while traveling on the highway, went through various checking by our credit card issuer to make certain we were the actual card holders. The cell phone service for our phone would cut us off, usually in the last stages of clearing this up... several times. It was an interesting experience and finally were able to get service and pull over to verify and have the card reinstated. Which happened immediately after going through a number of Fraud Interviewers. That is good. BioDiesel... well, still not something I want into my Ford Diesel.

Is BioDiesel as good as Diesel from 100% Petroleum? Well... I think of Ethanol added to gasoline.

What is your experience with BioDiesel? Without our experience with our Credit Card?
I have a 2002 f250 7.3 liter ford tv and run 100 percent biodiesel in the warm months. I get better mileage, runs quieter, and have never had any fuel problems. Even the new diesels can run a 20 percent biodiesel.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:44 AM   #25
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When oil is sold it is by volume. A barrel. I include a 'barrel' of oil provided by Mark Pottorff. Not all petroleum pumped from an 'oil well' are the same. Asphalt and gasoline sourced petroleums have different sources and uses...

How many gallons in a barrel of Oil? Petroleum (Crude Oil), 42 gallons adopted in 1866... others:

Provided by aoghs.org:

"Fluid barrels vary depending on what is being measured and where. In the UK a beer barrel is 36 imperial gallons (43 US gal; 164 L). In the US most fluid barrels (apart from oil) are 31.5 US gallons (26 imp gal; 119 L) (half a hogshead), but a beer barrel is 31 US gallons (26 imp gal; 117 L)."

The U. S. Energy Information Administration:

How many gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel are made from one barrel of oil?

"In 2017, refineries in the United States produced an average of about 20 gallons of motor gasoline and about 11 gallons of ultra-low sulfur distillate fuel oil (most of which is sold as diesel fuel and in several states as heating oil) from one 42-gallon barrel of crude oil. Many other petroleum products are also refined from crude oil. Refinery yields of individual products vary from month to month as refiners focus operations to meet demand for different products and as they work to maximize profits."

Once you begin to 'dig deeper' into petroleum products... you need a library just to keep up with this Carbon and Hydrogen molecule. From methane gas to complicated plastics... and beyond.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTF View Post
The thread title was about bio-diesel , and many comments were not about bio-diesel .

Now some of the facts:
1) bio-diesel has a little lower BTU's , but higher on centane .
This means slghtly lower overall MPG and power.
2) Also there is more lubricity to bio-diesel .
True that
3) Then one major issue with not knowing what your doing with bio-diesel , is plugged fuel system - this comes from the cleaning affect of bio-diesel [ especially at higher percentages , and in older systems { that have had more time to accumulate more dirt .... and mostly only after the 1st change to bio-diesel .
And people will blame biodiesel when it fact it is actually cleaning the crap out of your fuel system. Once clean, there is nothing more to cause a problem.
All this will vary with the percentage of bio , the higher the percentage the quicker the cleaning and the older the more dirt to plug the system .
4) Another benefit is reducing emissions , the higher the percentage of bio , the more the emissions are reduced .
That' true.

So with RVing , it would generally be easier to just use from the pump what ever you can find --- BUT keeping extra fuel filters is , and has always been a good idea , because even before bio , there were many times that trucks would come in the shop not running / or running poorly - because of bad fuel , there are many ways that fuel can be be contaminated .
I summarized your lengthy prose to get to the facts of biodiesel.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:52 PM   #27
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I noticed pilot, loves, etc always higher
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by myoung View Post
..With real #2 diesel we routinely get 27.5 to 28 mpg while towing. Knock off 2 mpg and that's what happens with the rotten stuff.

The BMW specifically says NOT to use biodiesel. ....
What are you towing?
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:36 PM   #29
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We ran our vintage Mercedes on B-80 for several years with no ill effects other than having to change the rubber lines to Viton and a few filter changes as it cleaned up the system. We did notice a slight reduction both in power and MPG due to the lower BTU. We also noticed it smelled like french fries! At first it was quite a bit cheaper than regular diesel but then it went up, and diesel went down to where the B-80 was more than diesel plus we had to go out of the way to get it, so now we are back to Safeway B-20. So in one form or another that OM 603 Turbo has been burning a bio blend for about 15 years now.

In my Superduty 7.3 I run whatever is available but I have never really checked to see if B-20 gives me lower MPG than plain diesel. I do know my MPG is always worse in the winter months which I always blamed on the winter additives.

The newer Mercedes engines did have problems due to too much biodiesel and if I recall correctly they now say no more than B-5 to keep the warranty in effect.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:07 AM   #30
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We've been running with bio diesel for many years and ever since it first came out. I recall filling my tank half full of regular diesel then going to a supplier with 100% bio diesel to blend it which was a pain since the supplier was not particularly convenient. Never had we any problems and we're so happy we can purchase a blend at the pump these days.
Happy trails y'all.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:16 AM   #31
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I will use it if need be. No harm at this point. When traveling I have no intention of driving through town off the highway to find fuel. When traveling through the Midwest where there is lots of bio diesel I will buy from speedway whenever possible as they dont seem to use it in their stations.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:34 AM   #32
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Quote:
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The reason for these inflated fuel prices is that trucking companies are willing to pay it. The logic behind this is what I do not know. Part of it may be that these big chain truck stops offer a discount to fleets that are on some sort of account. But the discount is only 9 cents per gallon. Subtract this from a price that is inflated 50 cents a gallon and for some reason fleets believe they are getting a deal. Im not getting it either!!! Most of the time you can go to the next exit and get fuel significantly cheaper. The truck I operate can carry 300 gallons of fuel. The only reason that I buy fuel at the Pilot/Flying J chain is to get a shower credit which can be used at any one of them and I only buy the minimum amount which is 60 gallons. When I see an independent selling it for 20 to 50 cents cheaper then I will fill it. I can save $100 to $200 a week by doing this!!! So, again, Im not getting either!!!


The trucking companies dont use these stations because they are willing to pay higher prices - they use them because they need to refuel their trucks and large truck stops make it possible for them to do so.

A few members of my family drive truck for a living and use the fuel cards that have been mentioned. They set us up with an account for our 4500 mile trip this fall. The discount varies by station. We typically could save between 6 and 10 dollars on a 22 gallon fill up.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSNO60 View Post
We ran our vintage Mercedes on B-80 for several years with no ill effects other than having to change the rubber lines to Viton and a few filter changes as it cleaned up the system. We did notice a slight reduction both in power and MPG due to the lower BTU. We also noticed it smelled like french fries! At first it was quite a bit cheaper than regular diesel but then it went up, and diesel went down to where the B-80 was more than diesel plus we had to go out of the way to get it, so now we are back to Safeway B-20. So in one form or another that OM 603 Turbo has been burning a bio blend for about 15 years now.

In my Superduty 7.3 I run whatever is available but I have never really checked to see if B-20 gives me lower MPG than plain diesel. I do know my MPG is always worse in the winter months which I always blamed on the winter additives.

The newer Mercedes engines did have problems due to too much biodiesel and if I recall correctly they now say no more than B-5 to keep the warranty in effect.

Older diesels like your Mercedes or even your 7.3 run significantly lower injection pressures which means the fuel system is more forgiving of lower quality diesel. Anything common rail is more picky. Water in the fuel is a major concern of the modern common rail engine...in part due to the higher pressures and in part because ULSD has less lubricating properties than the fuels that came before it. Diesel naturally contains water in small amounts. And pretty much all vehicles with a diesel engine contain a water separator device which can remove small amounts of water from the fuel. However, if you pumped a bad load of diesel into your tank...or pumped from a tank which had collected a lot of condensation...or even had a lot of condensation in your own fuel tank...you can overwhelm the water separator. Even tiny amounts of water that make it past the filters / separator to the high pressure pump can cause severe damage. And because fuel systems on a diesel are so expensive and labor-intensive, manufacturers try very hard to not warranty repair fuel systems damaged by water. Modern diesel vehicles can record a "Water in Filter" WIF event which cannot be cleared. Manufacturers could use this data as a way to deny warranty. It is important to drain the water separator every now and then. Usually, there is no water. Using biodiesel makes water more likely, so check more often.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:33 AM   #34
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You are absolutely correct on this. Gosh I cant remember where I read it but basically the main advocate of bio fuel anything for the Obama regime talked about this and why its ultimately a fail. Most of the increase in costs comes from the apparatus surrounding the growing, harvesting, tending etc to the crops that constitute any bio fuels. No matter now cheap or affordable they make the process all the rest adds to the total cost with it being unreasonable to even touch until gas is 6-8 a gallon.
To get more votes the bush regime uses Iowa corn in gasoline...so check your facts.....
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:50 AM   #35
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To get more votes the bush regime uses Iowa corn in gasoline...so check your facts.....
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/econo...anol-subsidies
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:32 AM   #36
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Is that a Nissan Titan XD in your icon picture? XD Pro-4x owner here. Loving it.
Nissan XD/Cummins 2018 Platinum Reserve trim. Great truck!
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:04 AM   #37
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2017 Chevy Silverado 2500HD. 24k and change miles on the truck. New Fuel filter, 8300 miles this summer.. all grades.. Fillowing states..Texas, NM, AZ, NV, OR, WA, WY, MT, ID, ND, SD, CO... filed without AS in tow usually, then truck stop due to our rig size.. we had all sorts of fuels... from all sorts of Mom-Pop to the usual big guys.

So.. our 9800#, 34’ AS, truck with bed shell (camper cover), about 450# of gear in truck bed, AVERAGED... just shy of 12MPG.

When I arrived home I changed fuel filter... there were no issues.. no water, very little “trash”... and this is all stock.

DEF consumption on the BIO was higher... (I tipped off the DEF each time it needed it. I used about 4 gallons from Texas to Oregon... then another 7 to return. The reduction could be in part to the truck still breaking in.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:54 AM   #38
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I'm surprised DEF consumption would be related to fuel type. Typically more DEF is used based on how hard the engine works.



How do you like the L5P Duramax?
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:32 AM   #39
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DEF rate is tied to fuel flow. Lower BTU's in Corn Oil so more fuel flow. It isn't a huge difference but it is noticeable

Much prefer good old diesel #2. My Nissan specifies no corn oil mixtures greater than B10. Makes ot a challenge sometimes...
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:16 AM   #40
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*****


Mileage per gallon: Lowest 9.5mpg / Highest 13.5mpg 2014 F350 4x4, topper, 25 foot Airstream, 6.7 turbo Diesel
You and I are at opposite ends of the world.

That is some major muscle you have there pulling that 25.

The only thing you don't have is duelies.

How is that ride?
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