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Old 03-20-2021, 05:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlinghick View Post
I’ve been stuck in this particular rabbit hole so long I may never get out. 2014 F150 4x4. GVWR is 7350 per door sticker. Max payload is 1,830, curb weight 5,561. Conventional tow max trailer weight is 7,600. Max tongue is 760 without weight distribution hitch and some other larger number (maybe 1,100) with one. Still no clue what we can safely tow. Ford’s documentation sucks.
I apologize to the OP for us hijacking the thread. I won't keep this going.

Safely towing is based on more than the hard numbers. Weather and road conditions vary as well as your skills and peace of mind when flying down the road with lots of expensive stuff and precious cargo that you could never replace, if you know what I mean, it all factors in. Speed absolutely is a concern.

The short answer is you can tow 7600# if you don't exceed any of the limits: Trailer towing, the truck's GVWR, Front GAWR, Rear GAWR, and GCWR. Assuming wheels and tires are of equal or better capacities that what it came with.

Let me give you an example. And, this is based on CAT scale weights and my white and yellow stickers. I actually find Ford's information adequate and well documented.

GVWR of this truck is 6900#

Actual scale weight, with WDH disconnected (in the truck bed) including tongue weight of the 23FB trailer came out to 6840#. That's only 60# below 6900#, but with WDH my margin is 140#. I have added Stable Loads to reduce squat and it tows great.

So, the trailer's tongue weight is 580#. TWR is 10%.

Truck was 5680# without trailer, but the nearly 160# Hensley hitch was in the bed. Conclusion, I am under the limit and okay.

The trailer GVWR is 6000# and my actual scale weight for it with full propane and full fresh water tank 5800#... again under the limit...

... well under GAWR limits with or without WDH...
... well below the maximum trailer weight of 10,700#...
...well below the GCWR of 15,500#.

You see I am very close to my GVWR and it is the first indice I would exceed if I went to a larger trailer. What I could do about that is 1) redistribute loading towards the rear of trailer, which isn't easy, not to mention I am right at 10% TWR now, or 2) carry less; especially carry less fresh water. I could reduce the size and volume of the propane tanks. Things that would reduce trailer weight but would also lower TWR.

Bottom line, somewhere around a 7000# trailer I could enter unsafe territory and exceed the trucks GVW and this for a truck that is rated to pull 10,700#.

I think you can see that there is no way Ford could tell me to limit the trailer to 6500 - 7500#. I had to weigh it and calculate it for myself.

I hope this helps.
FE
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Old 03-20-2021, 05:46 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by sterlinghick View Post
Thanks for the input. Iíve see the exact opposite answer on this forum. You might think Ford would understand that if they put a hitch and 7 pin connector on a truck that people might actually want to tow something and do it safely. Itís ridiculous that it should be this complex.
For many years, a 150# driver, full fluids was the standard. As American became "larger", 150# was unrealistic. For that, and other politically correct reasons, the standard was no one in the vehicle, leaving the buyer to determine the correct calculation.
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Old 03-20-2021, 06:28 PM   #23
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I just verified this in my owners manual. I just lost another 150lbs. It’s a darn good thing my tongue weight is currently only 700lbs with the Hensley installed. Plan to Keep the tongue at 800lbs. I’ll be sitting at 10-11% on the tongue and have 51lbs. to spare. I’ll be sure to eat light the night before.
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Old 03-20-2021, 06:55 PM   #24
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Yes as to gasoline and other required fluids. No as to driver. This myth that payload includes an allowance for a driver has to stop. Ford is emphatic that the full weight of the driver counts as cargo/payload. There is no ďallowance.Ē The driver contributes to payload the same as any other passenger. Ford is so emphatic about this issue that it devotes three whole pages of the F-150 ownerís manual to providing examples showing how to calculate payload, all of which use the full weight of the driver in calculating how much the truck can carry. See 2021 F-150 Ownerís Manual pp. 363-65.
This statement is incorrect.
See link below to Fordís towing guide. Payload includes 150lb driver. Always has.
Bottom of page 3, fine print.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf

This is why the door sticker says total weight of passengers and cargo must not exceed xxxxlbs. The driver is not a passenger.
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Old 03-20-2021, 09:06 PM   #25
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GMC doesn’t make this any easier than Ford makes it. I had to consult multiple sources of information to really understand my truck’s capabilities. As an example, my truck was equipped from the factory with the “Trailering equipment package”. Aside from the window sticker, there’s no mention of this package in GMC literature or online. Nobody seems to know what it means. It took some research, it I am now comfortable with my truck’s capacities. One thing that GMC makes very clear is the logic in determining payload capacity. It’s the GVWR minus the vehicle weight. Passengers (including the driver) count against your payload limits.
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:12 PM   #26
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My 2017 Lariat F150 is 7,000 lb GVWR.
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Old 03-21-2021, 05:32 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Bcc75 View Post
This statement is incorrect.
See link below to Ford’s towing guide. Payload includes 150lb driver. Always has.
Bottom of page 3, fine print.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf

This is why the door sticker says total weight of passengers and cargo must not exceed xxxxlbs. The driver is not a passenger.
I respectfully disagree with your reading. The full quote you are referring to is:

“Maximum payload and towing capabilities are for properly equipped base vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver and vary based on cargo, vehicle configuration, accessories and number of passengers. See label on door jamb for carrying capacity of a specific vehicle.” P. 3.

The marketing materials are providing maximum, theoretical capacities for payload and towing, assuming a 150 pound driver. Your own document, however, shows that the door jamb sticker governs the actual capacity of a specific vehicle. The owner’s manual shows how to calculate actual weight carried for purposes of complying with the door jamb capacity, and makes clear that the driver and the passengers are treated equally.

Your interpretation ignores the reference to the door jamb in the document you provide, fails to account for the owner’s manual at all and therefore fails to reconcile and give effect to both documents.

EDIT: Additional observation. The newer Ford door jamb stickers no longer use the term “passengers” and instead use the term “occupants,” further undercutting your distinction between drivers and passengers. “Always has” is antiquated thinking.
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Old 03-21-2021, 06:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s1000pre View Post
I just verified this in my owners manual. I just lost another 150lbs. Itís a darn good thing my tongue weight is currently only 700lbs with the Hensley installed. Plan to Keep the tongue at 800lbs. Iíll be sitting at 10-11% on the tongue and have 51lbs. to spare. Iíll be sure to eat light the night before.
'Ye fret in excess...toe 'til the lease is up and start again with a more capable unit.
Careful driving, proper lash-up,(you already have), and a destination is all you need right now.

FWIW...we towed for 18 Seasons using an AS Forums, "you will die", unsafe combination.

Bob
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:01 AM   #29
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Iím with Jeb! Letís put this one to bed... I included a photo of my owners manual with helpful examples. You and your 4 buddies=5 occupants 5x 220lbs=etc.
Our trucks donít haul as much as we thought...
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:16 AM   #30
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Ok well I will just make one more point and then Iím done. This is not to argue with anyone or challenge anything. It is simply to make the point that all of this is very confusing and depending on what literature you read, can be outright deceiving. Which is unfortunate when it comes to an issue as important as towing safety. The pic below is from another site where a member posted his actual build sheet from Ford when he ordered a new truck. The data states the Ford assumed 750 lbs for occupants in Figuring the curb weight.(150 for driver and 4 150 lb passengers). Note that curb weight highlights Ďas configuredí. We know that payload rating is GVWR minus curb weight right? And that max weight ratings as published are just that - max. They do not take into consideration for trims, options, packages, etc. that have to be deducted. But this states Ďas configuredí. The truck specs are shown at the top, including Lariat W3B which is a specific trim package. So in this case, shouldnít the payload be the GVWR minus the Curb weight? And the curb weight stated includes the occupants?
So you see how this is confusing?
In my opinion the only real way to determine any of this is load up and go to the CAT scales. As long as you are under your GVWR and under your axle ratings then you are fine.
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:37 AM   #31
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In my opinion the only real way to determine any of this is load up and go to the CAT scales. As long as you are under your GVWR and under your axle ratings then you are fine.
I couldnít agree more with that. Scale weights are definitive because they take into account everything that wasnít there when the truck left the factory, like a topper or a tonneau cover or a Line-X or an obese, spring-crushing occupant. I use the payload sticker only as a pre-purchase shopping guide to compare the capabilities of specific vehicles in the same gross weight classification and get a rough estimate of whether a specific truck can haul what I need it to haul, including me. But once I buy it, the gross weights and their respective ratings (axles and vehicle) are what count.
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:46 AM   #32
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If your going to do that, don’t forget to subtract the weight of your wheel & tires. ...they don’t count toward vehicle weight.
I’m not going to loose any sleep over this one. I already towed over 6,600 miles up and down mountains, freaky brake lock-up driving through North LA., driving at least the speed limit the entire trip, 30+ mph crosswinds using a BlueOx. All of this inadvertently 300lbs. over capacity. The truck ran amazingly!!! I now have a Hensley, I will pack what I had in my bed into the AS. Now only 50lbs + or -, I’m going camping!
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:34 AM   #33
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"If your going to do that, donít forget to subtract the weight of your wheel & tires. ...they donít count toward vehicle weight."

Not sure where you get this wishful thinking. Sprung and unsprung weight is not part of these calculations. Gross weight rating is GROSS....sprung and unsprung. All the rest of the calculations start with gross vehicle weight rating.
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:09 AM   #34
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Food for thought.. If as I often see, the difference between 3/4 and 1 ton, is an additional rear spring. Why wouldn’t adding a rear spring to a 1/2 ton increase it’s capability? Notice I DID NOT say, make it a 3/4 ton, or change the payload sticker.
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:15 AM   #35
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I think that depends upon the "capability " you are attempting to achieve.
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:30 AM   #36
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"Food for thought.. If as I often see, the difference between 3/4 and 1 ton, is an additional rear spring. Why wouldn’t adding a rear spring to a 1/2 ton increase it’s capability? "

Because 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks are built the same on the same chassis. But...1/2 ton trucks are an entire different build and platform. Because the springs are not what limits it to a 1/2 ton truck.
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:46 AM   #37
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Well, that depends on the vehicle family and year....

GM's gone to their T1 platform, which the 1500/ 2500/ 3500 vehicles share.

But the 1500 axles are 6-lug hubs, 2500's are 8-lug; the suspensions are not the same, engine and transmission choices are different, etc.


But I can't speak to Fords and Rams, as to the differences between the F150 and the F250, or their 1500 to 2500....
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Old 03-21-2021, 11:58 AM   #38
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Well, that depends on the vehicle family and year....

GM's gone to their T1 platform, which the 1500/ 2500/ 3500 vehicles share.

But the 1500 axles are 6-lug hubs, 2500's are 8-lug; the suspensions are not the same, engine and transmission choices are different, etc.


But I can't speak to Fords and Rams, as to the differences between the F150 and the F250, or their 1500 to 2500....
Sharing a platform DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE THE SAME. A 1500 frame is dimensionally different than an hd frame and the SUV frames are different. A platform means that common components can be used across the platform. The designation T1 is short for T1xx, where xx is a placeholder for a number of designations. Then beyond xx, there are different lengths, etc that make up a particular model.
To imply that a 1500 could be made a 2500 with component changes is FALSE. Prior generations were likewise...K2 was K2xx...etc.
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Old 03-21-2021, 12:39 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bcc75 View Post
This statement is incorrect.
See link below to Fordís towing guide. Payload includes 150lb driver. Always has.
Bottom of page 3, fine print.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf

This is why the door sticker says total weight of passengers and cargo must not exceed xxxxlbs. The driver is not a passenger.
Right you are... 150#driver and passenger, unless the truck has HDPP (code 627). See page 12 of the 2021 Towing Guide. Then every seating position includes a 150#passenger.
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Old 03-21-2021, 12:45 PM   #40
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I just verified this in my owners manual. I just lost another 150lbs. Itís a darn good thing my tongue weight is currently only 700lbs with the Hensley installed. Plan to Keep the tongue at 800lbs. Iíll be sitting at 10-11% on the tongue and have 51lbs. to spare. Iíll be sure to eat light the night before.
Keep in mind the Hensley adds to the payload (weight behind the rear axle, however) and shouldn't be included in tongue weight for calculations. Hensley has the weights of the various models.
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