Are They Meaningless? Tow Limits, Payload and Axle Load

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

You're right jcl, insurance generally covers everything but deliberate acts with intended malice, but the degree of protection from liability lawsuits depends on your coverage limits so the risk is still very real. Also risk of being canceled oh having outrageous future premiums is very real as you say.

Just out of interest, do liability coverage limits across the US vary widely? What is common? I run $5 million on our vehicles, and have underinsured coverage so I get increased coverage for my own benefit if someone causes a crash with me and has less insurance. as well as personal liability coverage beyond the vehicle coverage, but I don’t know if all this is commonplace for other posters.

Jeff

[DewTheDew]

I haven't read my coverage but if you deliberately/knowingly exceed GVWR I would not be surprised if your insurance refuses to cover either your collision or the liability if you hit someone else in the process.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

I haven't read my coverage but if you deliberately/knowingly exceed GVWR I would not be surprised if your insurance refuses to cover either your collision or the liability if you hit someone else in the process.

Is that the same for exceeding posted speed limits? That coverage is denied and you are on the hook yourself in the event of a crash where speed was judged to be a factor?

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by jcl

Source?

Speed limits in Europe were generally similar when I lived and worked there. I just looked up the UK and towing speed limits are 60 mph or 70 mph depending on highway classification. Germany has a higher speed limit if your combination is TUV inspected. I recall California is 55 mph. I don’t know which other states have towing-specific speed limits.

No additional drivers licence required in the UK, until you get into commercial vehicles and weights, the same 3500 kg that most light duty vehicles use for an upper tow weight rating.

I think most reduced tow ratings in the US have to do with fear of litigation, since there are differences between the US and Canada as well in terms of tow ratings, and the vehicles and driving conditions are very similar. That can be an issue, but it points to the US tow rating not always being a technically derived rating.

This article sums up some of (see first link) it however you are correct in that the speed limit can vary in the Europe part of the UK. A regular car license allows you to tow a small trailer up to 1,653 lbs or combined 7,716 GCVW and there are 4 additional "entitlements" you can get for different tow vehicles and trailers. When you obtained your license also figures into the equation. (see the second link). In summary my point is that other countries seem to have a more common sense approach compared to the US.
https://www.admiral.com/magazine/gui...-uk-and-abroad
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules#:~:t...an%203%2C500kg.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by jcl

Is that the same for exceeding posted speed limits? That coverage is denied and you are on the hook yourself in the event of a crash where speed was judged to be a factor?

No but when you take the car to a deliberate speed event (track) it is not covered. Manufacturer will be the same; many warranty items will be void if you have deliberately and knowingly exceeded specifications.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

Likely all of them. It is, after all, their job.

Show me...

[tjdonahoe]

You don’t see many lite weight tow vehicles in MT...we have wind and passes..

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by jcl

1)

4). My approach is to understand the context for the ratings, and apply them based on that understanding. For example, I always respect tire and axle ratings, at least when towing at public road speeds. I have exceeded them at very low speeds when moving things off highway or on closed roads, on occasion. A large and heavy parade float behind my X5 comes to mind. I always respect GVWR limits when solely hauling, especially if it is a commercial trip, but not necessarily when towing recreationally, if using WD. I consider many tow ratings to have little technical basis. Not all. I wouldn’t want to exceed the tow rating of a recent North American pickup, or even necessarily tow at the capacity rating, as I think the manufacturers are already pushing it. I don’t consider some receiver ratings to be very accurate, but wouldn’t exceed one without investigation and some judgement. That doesn’t have to include FEA or fatigue considerations to me, it could simply be an evaluation of the design and comparison to other offerings, more a state of the art evaluation, best practices.

For all of the ratings, I don’t set out to arbitrarily reclaim some of the built in safety factor, because it isn’t mine to use, the designer put it in for a reason. I think it is risky to just say that there is a safety factor so “she’ll be right“, as my Australian friends like to say.

I think there can be too much focus on the numbers. I don’t think ratings by themselves make a combination safe, and there is a tendency for some to assume their safety based on being under ratings. What the article at the beginning of this thread said, when discussing 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickup alternatives, was that in many cases the 1/2 ton could be part of a safer combination, due to better handling, better match, TV suspension design, etc, considering the ability of the vehicle to handle axle loads, and despite the GVWR. That the GVWR could be arbitrary when considering towing with WD. Not that it always was. But IMO all the discussion has been more about the words arbitrary and meaningless, not so much about the meat of the proposition, which was to not just focus on the rating, especially for when other items traded off in the pursuit of a higher rating compromise the result instead of improving it.

I can't be sure jcl, but my interpretation of your explanation is that you live in an alternate reality where you can suppose things you want to be true come true. I get that if we sometimes don't know how the numbers were derived and you can't be sure, but it is a leap to presume they are wrong. It is also a leap to construct just so stories about how they may be wrong. I would argue that if you don't have factual evidence, one should assume they are correct.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

I can't be sure jcl, but my interpretation of your explanation is that you live in an alternate reality where you can suppose things you want to be true come true. I get that if we sometimes don't know how the numbers were derived and you can't be sure, but it is a leap to presume they are wrong. It is also a leap to construct just so stories about how they may be wrong. I would argue that if you don't have factual evidence, one should assume they are correct.

You are conflating wrong, meaning calculated incorrectly, with less relevant than other factors.

You appear to be operating under the belief that all of the ratings being referred to are the primary determinants for safe operation. I would call that an alternate reality.

You used to post that all of us should follow manufacturers recommendations. Because manufacturers know best. Now in another thread you are determining if 100% FALR can actually improve the setup. You are getting there.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

No but when you take the car to a deliberate speed event (track) it is not covered. Manufacturer will be the same; many warranty items will be void if you have deliberately and knowingly exceeded specifications.

Let’s leave aside the potential warranty impacts due to a change in duty cycle, and stay with insurance. Also, we are discussing on road operation, not racing. Agree that insurance policies can have clauses restricting coverage during competitive events,

So if one breaks the law by operating over the speed limit, and causes a crash, it seems we agree that insurance coverage won’t be impacted.

But you suggested that exceeding a GVWR (in private operation, not a commercial carrier, where GVWR is regulated) can have an impact on insurance. In Maryland, is exceeding GVWR an offence for private vehicle operation? In your state code, the references to GVWR I found impact driver licensing. Maybe there are other regulations, Can you provide a reference? Because if it isn’t illegal, then what is the basis for potentially impacting insurance claims solely due to the GVWR issue?

[Profxd]

The vehicle manufacturers make it very clear not to exceed any of the weight ratings, yet those that believe they are smart try to rationalize why it’s ok. This whole argument is useless. Towing safe, towing within manufacturers limits, and towing legal are basically three different concepts. Towing safely is in the head of driver, how fast he travels, how he loads his equipment, the decisions he makes. Towing within manufacturers limits is self explanatory, get over it. Towing legal is staying within federal and local laws in which many only apply to commercial but there are some for the consumer. While there is some overlap between those points the consumer needs to satisfy all three of those and not ignore what is inconvenient for them.

[Bruce B]

Originally Posted by Profxd

The vehicle manufacturers make it very clear not to exceed any of the weight ratings, yet those that believe they are smart try to rationalize why it’s ok. This whole argument is useless. Towing safe, towing within manufacturers limits, and towing legal are basically three different concepts. Towing safely is in the head of driver, how fast he travels, how he loads his equipment, the decisions he makes. Towing within manufacturers limits is self explanatory, get over it. Towing legal is staying within federal and local laws in which many only apply to commercial but there are some for the consumer. While there is some overlap between those points the consumer needs to satisfy all three of those and not ignore what is inconvenient for them.

I have to say, this makes more sense than perhaps anything I have ever read on this subject.
For going on 9 years now, I have been reading threads about tow vehicle limits and I believe this is the simplest, most eloquent assessment I have read.
Thank you...

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jcl

Is that the same for exceeding posted speed limits? That coverage is denied and you are on the hook yourself in the event of a crash where speed was judged to be a factor?

If you read Michigan traffic law (I have the entire book from Academy) a vehicle that is exceeding the speed limit no longer has right of way, even if it did. With vehicle black boxes and dash cams everywhere I would be very careful if you speed.

Unless there are obvious signs of overload or a commercial vehicle involved I’ve never seen investigators weigh anything. Driver actions are always the first thing they look at. Usually someone runs a traffic signal or does something obvious and it ends there. If you run a red light and I slam into your vehicle it will be on dash camera and my vehicle loading won’t matter (don’t get all excited, I’m well within limits without ever going to a scale).

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jcl

I generally agree that not all ratings are meaningless, but some ratings can be arbitrary, like the reduced GVWR label designed to avoid registration fees, or a reduced rating associated with a light duty receiver. That rating can still be meaningful, but more in reference to the receiver, not the overall vehicle. The references to payload being less meaningful were about when towing, not when applying point loads in a truck bed. The thread title was designed to provoke, not clarify, IMO.

The biggest issue I have with tow ratings is when posters relate them to “guaranteeing” their safety. They don’t, and I think it is misleading when some suggest they do.

Most people on here are not engineers. They read and try to follow label instructions. For example, there is a sticker in my F350 with a little picture of a truck tipping over. As an engineer I have no use for the little sticker but if it weren’t there someone else might kill themself in the truck. I always try to remember this when reading any forum threads.

[Bruce B]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

Most people on here are not engineers. They read and try to follow label instructions. For example, there is a sticker in my F350 with a little picture of a truck tipping over. As an engineer I have no use for the little sticker but if it weren’t there someone else might kill themself in the truck. I always try to remember this when reading any forum threads.

I’m trying to remember if my GMC has that sticker...
I’ve seen it in lots of vehicles but don’t remember it in this one. Maybe I’ve seen it so many times that it no longer registers.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

I’m trying to remember if my GMC has that sticker...
I’ve seen it in lots of vehicles but don’t remember it in this one. Maybe I’ve seen it so many times that it no longer registers.

Since you’ve apparently not rolled your truck I assume you’ll live without the sticker!

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by jcl

You are conflating wrong, meaning calculated incorrectly, with less relevant than other factors.

You appear to be operating under the belief that all of the ratings being referred to are the primary determinants for safe operation. I would call that an alternate reality.

You used to post that all of us should follow manufacturers recommendations. Because manufacturers know best. Now in another thread you are determining if 100% FALR can actually improve the setup. You are getting there.

Apples to Oranges since when you are below towing limits, manufacturers don't provide guidance on optimizing set-up unfortunately.

I think we would both agree our position is not so much different than it seems. The major difference is when we don't know for sure, I am more judging, I want hard evidence and prefer to say we don't know. You seem to be more intuitive and are more willing to speculate with the circumstantial evidence available. I suppose there is some merit in both.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Profxd

The vehicle manufacturers make it very clear not to exceed any of the weight ratings, yet those that believe they are smart try to rationalize why it’s ok. This whole argument is useless. Towing safe, towing within manufacturers limits, and towing legal are basically three different concepts. Towing safely is in the head of driver, how fast he travels, how he loads his equipment, the decisions he makes. Towing within manufacturers limits is self explanatory, get over it. Towing legal is staying within federal and local laws in which many only apply to commercial but there are some for the consumer. While there is some overlap between those points the consumer needs to satisfy all three of those and not ignore what is inconvenient for them.

I agree with Bruce, this was very well stated and persuasive.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by jcl

Let’s leave aside the potential warranty impacts due to a change in duty cycle, and stay with insurance. Also, we are discussing on road operation, not racing. Agree that insurance policies can have clauses restricting coverage during competitive events,

So if one breaks the law by operating over the speed limit, and causes a crash, it seems we agree that insurance coverage won’t be impacted.

But you suggested that exceeding a GVWR (in private operation, not a commercial carrier, where GVWR is regulated) can have an impact on insurance. In Maryland, is exceeding GVWR an offence for private vehicle operation? In your state code, the references to GVWR I found impact driver licensing. Maybe there are other regulations, Can you provide a reference? Because if it isn’t illegal, then what is the basis for potentially impacting insurance claims solely due to the GVWR issue?

I haven't checked my insurance coverage regarding GVWR, but running your car on a track (not racing, but on a track) is perfectly legal. Most insurance companies will not cover your vehicle if you crash it at the track. So what the law says is legal and what is covered by insurance are two different things.

[camp-n-family]

The engineers and technicians don’t make the ratings. The lawyers do.