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Old 10-25-2020, 06:59 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by switz View Post
Looking at manufactures web sites, one looks at their suggested tow ratings and wonders if the profit motive for upselling drives the number. As an example, my 2012 Ram has a GVW of 9,600 pounds. After adding just one leaf spring on the rear it suddenly has a 11,000 pound tow rating. No other parts are changed.

But a 3500 model sells for more $$$


You are mistaken. There are numerous differences between the Ram 2500 and 3500, besides one additional leaf spring, which accounts for the substantially higher tow ratings.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:17 PM   #162
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Not enough people bring up liability. If you get in an accident and you are above your stated numbers - you could be in a world of hurt. Denied insurance and lawsuits. Honestly that to me is one of the biggest things to think about.
Would you please share a documented case where that happened? Not just conjecture or hearsay?
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Old 10-26-2020, 03:00 AM   #163
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"Are They Meaningless? Tow Limits, Payload and Axle Load"

I don't think a jury is going to think they are meaningless if you get pulled into court for being in a wreck. I don't think "I read on the internet not to worry about it" is going to remove your liability. Even if the wreck was not your fault, a lawyer will try to shift fault your direction since you were operating outside of the manufacturer's posted guidelines. Somehow they will make that a contributing factor, even if it is a crazy statement like "he could not swerve to get out of the way of my drunk driver client because he was overloaded".
An elderly driver in an RV is likely to have problems regardless how many scale sheets are in the rig. Trust me. Donít kid yourself. Avoid accidents at all cost.
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Old 10-26-2020, 07:20 AM   #164
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Would you please share a documented case where that happened? Not just conjecture or hearsay?
If you search this site you will find the occasional case either described in a post or linked in a post. Not many but more than a few over the years.
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Old 10-26-2020, 07:54 AM   #165
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Angular velocity and instrument considerations... that's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains: comparing handling performance of a vehicle with GVWR > 10,000 versus one <10,000 is apples to oranges if you are using the specs provided in those SAE tests related to ABS lockup. I don't care what size the tire is... if you lose ABS at 20 MPH that's a world of difference from losing control at 10 MPH. I don't need instrumentation to tell me that. Hitting a wall, hitting a person or another vehicle, or just sliding off the road... it's a LOT more likely at 20 MPH than 10 MPH. And the results will be MUCH worse (it's not 2x worse... I think the engineers always says it's a square worse?).

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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
Many of the differences you note are geometry related and really are Apples to Apples. The ABS lockup for example is because larger vehicles tend to have larger diameter tires and thus lower angular velocity. to accommodate similar instrument considerations they need higher speeds.

I've seen real engineers and experts make that and similar statements..... Go figure.
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Old 10-26-2020, 07:56 AM   #166
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I've searched. Cannot find a single example of firsthand reporting of someone having their insurance denied or having their trailer (non commercial) weighed by police on the road. I wasn't the original requester, but since it's come up and you've replied, would you mind responding with links?

Thanks

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If you search this site you will find the occasional case either described in a post or linked in a post. Not many but more than a few over the years.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:04 AM   #167
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The posts are buried in threads about towing capability. I may have misunderstood. My response was to confirm lawsuits. I have not seen issue of insurance coverage denial, nor any firsthand police or DOT stops, though you do see it in the news infrequently though it is the stupid stuff mentioned.

I think I may have seen 5 or so legal cases mentioned. I had a friend's family experience a trailer mishap that included a jackknife and then the trailer becoming disconnected and loose. It was back in the early 1980's. That one went to court over capacity and capability issues.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:20 AM   #168
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OEM tow ratings are there just to keep the OEM safe and out of court.

Most are VERY conservative or simply marketing numbers. Most OEMS want you to get a more expensive vehicles so that they mark two ratings according.

See the posts by Andy from CANAMRV.
https://www.canamrv.ca/towing-expertise/videos/
we explains very well what the issues are, what to look for and how to make a better educated decision

These days many SUV are more capable and reliable that many 1/2 and 3/4 ton type trucks
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:37 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by waninae39 View Post
OEM tow ratings are there just to keep the OEM safe and out of court.

Most are VERY conservative or simply marketing numbers. Most OEMS want you to get a more expensive vehicles so that they mark two ratings according.
This is where I violently disagree. People throw these statements out as if it is common knowledge, while ignoring the fact that there are very good reasons for these numbers. I cannot imagine a truck or SUV manufacturer reducing max towing or max payload for marketing purposes. As for "safe and out of court", I would also like to stay safe and out of court. They have figured in a factor of safety and that 's what they use. I see no reason to go against the recommendations of the people who designed and built the vehicle. I see many reasons why some after-market people have an incentive to want you to do so, however. For everyone saying this, please provide a concrete, documented case where the number is downrated for the vehicles of interest (not HD). Thank you.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:55 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waninae39 View Post
OEM tow ratings are there just to keep the OEM safe and out of court.

Most are VERY conservative or simply marketing numbers. Most OEMS want you to get a more expensive vehicles so that they mark two ratings according.

See the posts by Andy from CANAMRV.
https://www.canamrv.ca/towing-expertise/videos/
we explains very well what the issues are, what to look for and how to make a better educated decision

These days many SUV are more capable and reliable that many 1/2 and 3/4 ton type trucks
I mean no disrespect to Andy but using the argument that truck manufacturers are simply using the numbers to their advantage to drive profit is an argument that can be applied directly to what Andy is doing. Think about it, he is increasing his own market share by selling the idea that you do not need a truck. Think he profits from that?
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:11 PM   #171
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I have no idea how I would feel about tow limits on a car or a SUV. I do not tow with one. I think I would stay under the tow limit if I did. For pickup trucks I sure would not want to be over the tow limit because I think they are tested and are exceedingly generous in terms of maximum numbers. When we start to get the limits of where the truck will move on a slope and where the brakes will hold at 10 miles an hour and if the hitch does not bend too much you are getting up there in weight, in my opinion. But even for 1/2 ton trucks those limits are generally higher than Airstreams weigh. I would probably go over payload if everything else was under including the max tow weight.
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Old 10-26-2020, 04:34 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by waninae39 View Post
OEM tow ratings are there just to keep the OEM safe and out of court.

Most are VERY conservative or simply marketing numbers. Most OEMS want you to get a more expensive vehicles so that they mark two ratings according.

See the posts by Andy from CANAMRV.
https://www.canamrv.ca/towing-expertise/videos/
we explains very well what the issues are, what to look for and how to make a better educated decision

These days many SUV are more capable and reliable that many 1/2 and 3/4 ton type trucks
Yeah this kind of statement fails common sense and logic. Vehicle makers certainly have an economic incentive to ensure their vehicles are safe given they market them as such, but they also have as much or more incentive to market them as being as capable to the market segment as possible, the the customer will buy from the competitor.

Hitch installers, as was mentioned of course have an incentive to convince as many prospective towers as possible to use their service, and of course their service adds much more value if they can convince customers they improve the capability of the OEM product as oppose to just aid people with the best hitch set-up.... Well then.

Back in the real world where physics rules the day, trailer inertia can only be held back with bulk and size. It's why football teams go with size over braun for linemen. It's why Collyn's general guideline to chose a tow vehicle with a GVWR greater than the GVWR of the trailer is such good advice. You can wax eloquently for days and it won't change the rules of physics.
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Old 10-26-2020, 06:53 PM   #173
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Back in the real world where physics rules the day, trailer inertia can only be held back with bulk and size. It's why football teams go with size over braun for linemen. It's why Collyn's general guideline to chose a tow vehicle with a GVWR greater than the GVWR of the trailer is such good advice. You can wax eloquently for days and it won't change the rules of physics.
You might not be able to change the rules of physics, but you can change the equation. I can lift xx pounds, but give me a lever and I can raise a lot more. Same physics. But that is an example of changing the equation.

The change in the equation for towing is the use of WD equipment, properly set up. Without WD, an F150 is rated to tow 5000 lbs IIRC. I suspect the GM and RAM are similar. But with WD each can tow more per the manufacturer.

This approach isn’t common with the Euro manufacturers. They are not allowed to use WD, so are not familiar with it nor do they tend to recommend it for use in markets such as North America where it is legal, so as a result, they don’t apply those equations. Typically, they will grudgingly accept that one can use WD with their vehicles, but they say it doesn’t change the rating. If they don’t supply a receiver that can accept WD torques, it is fully understandable.

I don’t think many understand that without WD, many mid sized Euro SUVs are rated to tow more than half ton pickups, and in fact more than some 3/4 ton pickups.

So don’t try and change the rules of physics, but take the opportunity to use the equipment that physics has shown to increase capabilities. The right tool for the job.

Some would recognize this as working smarter, not harder.
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Old 10-26-2020, 06:57 PM   #174
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Hitch installers, as was mentioned of course have an incentive to convince as many prospective towers as possible to use their service, and of course their service adds much more value if they can convince customers they improve the capability of the OEM product as oppose to just aid people with the best hitch set-up.... Well then.
If you are referring to CanAm, you are ignoring the fact that they don’t charge for their advice. I found them to be generous in this regard. No purchase required. I would call your comments libellous.
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:59 PM   #175
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The engineers and technicians donít make the ratings. The lawyers do.

Not in the tire industry based on my 40+ years experience.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:51 PM   #176
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The "safety" margin may be, but the durability margin is not.



Well said.


Tires seldom if ever fail as soon as they are run 10% overloaded or run 20 psi low or 10mph over their stated speed rating.
Damage is cumulative and I don't know of any parts that "repair" themselves. In some mechanical parts the damage is in the form of accelerated wear. For a moment tink of running your engine low on oil. Will the engine fail if you run it 5% low or 20% low or 80% low on oil? In how many miles? I don't know the specific answer to the number of miles based on how low on oil you are. Does the fact that you might not have an immediate engine failure from running 50% low on oil mean it is OK to do that?

In tires the damage starts at the molecular level with chemical bonds breaking (cracking) which can grow and may become microscopic in size and eventually might result in cracks that grow large enough for the structure to fail. i.e. a belt separation.

Overload or low inflation or over-speed, lets call these damaging events, can each initiate or contribute to an accelerated growth of these "cracks". In rubber there is both an initiation phase and a growth phase.

It is conceivable for tires to tolerate "X" level of damaging event for many thousands of miles and the tire never "initiates" a crack but also there can be a single damaging event such as hitting a pot-hole of a certain size, depth, length, angle of incidence and speed that is the "initiation" event and this results in a belt separation 5 miles or 20,000 miles later, with the variation be the result of different growth rates. This was covered in detail in my blog in Jan 2020 that examined a Tire Industry technical paper on tire forensics and impact damage that identified a 100% correlation between impact damage (such as you might get hitting a pot hole) and belt separation failure.

Many times I read reports saying..."I was driving 55 mph down the Interstate and had check the air just an hour previous and was not overloaded when the tire failed for no reason." Sorry but there is always a reason. That reason might be because of the speed, load, inflation road surface, i.e. damaging event, that the tire was driven on 1,000 miles previous to the actual failure.

Forensic tire analysis is a very complex science and there are very few engineers that have the decades of experience it takes to accurately identify the Root Cause of tire failure. I dare say that each major tire company only has a handful of engineers capable of identifying the actual root cause of a tire failure 70% of the time and maybe only one engineer that can properly identify 90% of tire failures. Too often there is too much missing evidence or accurate reporting to tire operation history for anyone to identify the reason why each and every tire failed. You can see this in my Jan 2020 report.
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Old 10-27-2020, 12:18 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
If you search this site you will find the occasional case either described in a post or linked in a post. Not many but more than a few over the years.

I asked the same question earlier and I do not consider the above response an appropriate answer. If this has happened there must be an article or some proof. Just saying it happens proves nothing.
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Old 10-27-2020, 12:27 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker
Back in the real world where physics rules the day, trailer inertia can only be held back with bulk and size. It's why football teams go with size over braun for linemen. It's why Collyn's general guideline to chose a tow vehicle with a GVWR greater than the GVWR of the trailer is such good advice. You can wax eloquently for days and it won't change the rules of physics.

We are going to have to get, literally, all of the semi-trucks off the road and soon, for the reason you state. Have you forgotten about trailer brakes?

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Old 10-27-2020, 04:09 AM   #179
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If you are referring to CanAm, you are ignoring the fact that they don’t charge for their advice. I found them to be generous in this regard. No purchase required. I would call your comments libellous.
Forgive me but this is silly. They profit not only from selling trailers to people who otherwise would not consider ownership because they did not want or could not afford a truck to tow with. Their service department is busy charging for their services that include setting up vehicles to tow.
His “advice” and magazine articles fall into the category of marketing...
I have zero doubt that Can Am is excellent at what they do. I’m sure that everyone towing could benefit from their services.
Suggesting that it is somehow done for reasons other than good old business is just wrong.
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Old 10-27-2020, 06:37 AM   #180
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This is where I violently disagree. People throw these statements out as if it is common knowledge, while ignoring the fact that there are very good reasons for these numbers. I cannot imagine a truck or SUV manufacturer reducing max towing or max payload for marketing purposes. As for "safe and out of court", I would also like to stay safe and out of court. They have figured in a factor of safety and that 's what they use. I see no reason to go against the recommendations of the people who designed and built the vehicle. I see many reasons why some after-market people have an incentive to want you to do so, however. For everyone saying this, please provide a concrete, documented case where the number is downrated for the vehicles of interest (not HD). Thank you.
But but thatís what a guy in Canada said!
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