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Old 10-27-2020, 06:35 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
OK, while my semi example may have been, according to you a "fallacy, how about 5th wheels, if that is more to your liking. How many trucks outweigh even the lightest and smallest 5er's? Are we to believe that they are all unsafe and should be banned from the road? Your premise does not hold water for so many reasons regarding tow vehicle weight to trailer wight ratio. Your assumption of less than 1:1 would leave many RVer's without a trailer. Even my 6K# trailer outweighs my 1/2 ton PU by ~300#
The rational observer would note the hitch location is different and would correctly conclude the formulation is different. Single wheels add 30-50% capacity, dual wheels nearly 100%. The eight wheeled semi-tractors quite a bit more still. The game changer is hitch location. A full explanation would be quite complex and drawn out.
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Old 10-27-2020, 07:21 PM   #202
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Thanks for that. I just knew Ford and RAM. I see for the 1500, they allow up to 7000 lbs without WD, 2000 lbs more than Ford, and similar to many SUVs under discussion, at 7700 lbs. For the HD models, if it is not required, why do they list a FALR figure? Do they recommend but not require it?
There is no commentary about this in the owner's manual, so here is my best guess: As trailer-towing prowess increases, you can now tow something that's approaching 3x the weight of the truck. To minimize oversteer and reduce the risk of jackknife, they don't want too much weight removed from the drive axle.
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Old 10-27-2020, 07:27 PM   #203
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BMW sold 10,000 more X5's in the US in 2019 than they did in all of Europe according to carsalesbase.com I am pretty sure the German engineers have been here. Pretty sure they tailor vehicles for here. Not sure if you are aware but X5s are BUILT IN THE USA. To claim that these people are ignorant and dismissive of our huge market is pretty bold and I would want some backup on that.
Our primary vehicle when not towing the Airstream is a 2017 BMW X5 x35d. As for power and fun, this vehicle has it all. As for "tailored for here", there is a lot to be desired. The air conditioning is insufficient for the hot, muggy summers here along the Gulf Coast. If the German engineers understood the climate here, they would have added a bit more oomph to the AC. Every single one of my US- or Japanese-based vehicles have fared quite well down here. Even VW has adequate cooling. My X5, not so much. Can't wait to get rid of this thing. Just a bad job on engineering the cabin design.
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:40 PM   #204
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You have discussed this 2005 example. This is 2020. Has it occurred to you that they have thought about it and do not want you to do this rather than just being ignorant after more than 15 years of building X5's in the US? You think no one has told them about WD hitches in all this time while they were in South Carolina? If I thought the BMW engineers were that stupid I'd never have bought one in the first place.
My second paragraph wasn’t about BMW, that was another German manufacturer.

I am familiar with the X5 through the E53, E70, and F15 models up through 2018. That most recent model used a detachable hitch that was not usable with WD. Apparently they didn’t learn in the ensuing 19 years after they introduced the E53. Of course they knew about WD. They ignored it, and many other towing issues as well. If you look at the 2020 models on line, not just the X model, the vast majority have no BMW hitch offering at all in North America, nor a tow rating. Despite BMW offering both outside North America.

They aren’t stupid at all, that is your phrase. They just don’t bother. And it isn’t about where the vehicles are built. My X3 was built in Austria by a contract manufacturer, not by BMW. The manufacturer was owned by a Canadian company. But the vehicle wasn’t designed in Canada or Austria, rather Germany.
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:46 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by jaybauman View Post
Our primary vehicle when not towing the Airstream is a 2017 BMW X5 x35d. As for power and fun, this vehicle has it all. As for "tailored for here", there is a lot to be desired. The air conditioning is insufficient for the hot, muggy summers here along the Gulf Coast. If the German engineers understood the climate here, they would have added a bit more oomph to the AC. Every single one of my US- or Japanese-based vehicles have fared quite well down here. Even VW has adequate cooling. My X5, not so much. Can't wait to get rid of this thing. Just a bad job on engineering the cabin design.
Never had a cabin cooling issue. Sometimes a heat issue at -35. Maybe the engineers were closer to Finland than the south. How did those cupholders work for you, were they tailored to North American tastes? Ours didn't hold anything larger than a small paper cup, not that we minded that much.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:06 PM   #206
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Never had a cabin cooling issue. Sometimes a heat issue at -35. Maybe the engineers were closer to Finland than the south. How did those cupholders work for you, were they tailored to North American tastes? Ours didn't hold anything larger than a small paper cup, not that we minded that much.
I was going to ask if -35 was Fahrenheit or Celsius, but they're nearly identical in that range!

The cupholders are as useless as on a boar. I've considered bringing along my Camelback for longer trips.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:33 PM   #207
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I read probably over 10k posts over bimmerfest and xoutpost and I do not recall people complaining about AC in X5. Maybe your vehicle needs some kind of fix.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:39 PM   #208
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I am perfectly aware that current X models are manufactured only in the US. It does not change the fact that these vehicles are designed in Germany.

I understand that it is difficult to comprehend that Germans do not car about Americans towing with BMWs. I guess this is not intuitive as truck manufacturers are in the race to add lbs to towing capacity.

The reason why BMW do not care is that Americans are not interested in towing with BMW. Therefore, BMW do not bother to make an effort to properly set up their vehicles for towing in the US. It was said many times - they do not even offer hitch option in the US for majority of the cars, which are commonly used for towing in the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by DewTheDew View Post
BMW sold 10,000 more X5's in the US in 2019 than they did in all of Europe according to carsalesbase.com I am pretty sure the German engineers have been here. Pretty sure they tailor vehicles for here. Not sure if you are aware but X5s are BUILT IN THE USA. To claim that these people are ignorant and dismissive of our huge market is pretty bold and I would want some backup on that.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:28 PM   #209
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I was going to ask if -35 was Fahrenheit or Celsius, but they're nearly identical in that range!

The cupholders are as useless as on a boar. I've considered bringing along my Camelback for longer trips.
LOL. I have driven in -46 C, but the X5 only saw -35C. The X3 saw -30C. Both tended to ice the interior of the windows as the vehicles didn't produce enough heat. On the Explorers and Expeditions I had to run winter fronts at those temperatures, so maybe I should be grateful for small mercies.

I always thought the cupholders were a joke, I just never cared about cupholders that much. Certainly they were a frequent lament on BMW boards as not being appropriate for North American tastes.
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Old 10-28-2020, 04:56 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by bono View Post

I understand that it is difficult to comprehend that Germans do not car about Americans towing with BMWs. I guess this is not intuitive as truck manufacturers are in the race to add lbs to towing capacity.

The reason why BMW do not care is that Americans are not interested in towing with BMW. Therefore, BMW do not bother to make an effort to properly set up their vehicles for towing in the US. It was said many times - they do not even offer hitch option in the US for majority of the cars, which are commonly used for towing in the rest of the world.
They do not set it up nor do they test it. Therefore all these "it works for me" people are playing with fire. Perhaps you like playing with fire, but I do not. I lived in Germany and worked with quite a few German engineers (including some in the auto industry). They are very cognizant of the US market. Most have probably spent time in this country. I don't think they don't care so much as they think it is silly to use an X5 to tow in the USA when we have far better vehicles available here that are far more suited to the task. Just my guess based on my interactions from my time there.
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:11 AM   #211
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I can say they do and for the obvious safety reasons we read so much about. But I can share a personal experience with my 2019 F150. I usually run pretty close or at payload capacity pulling my 2019 Globetrotter. On one of my longer trips I made plans to pull over and sleep for a couple of nights at Gander, Walmart, etc. As a result I my grey, black and fresh water tanks were pretty full. Then I fueled up my 36 gallon gas tank. After 5 miles on I95 in SC every sensor in the truck malfunctioned; Pre-Collision, Hill Start Assist, Parking Aid, etc. No cruise control and no Tow mode either. Coincidentally, I went to Cat Scales for first time and was 600 pounds over payload! Lots of water weight. The next day all was OK. Mmmm. Tanks are now empty. Ford dealer was useless. Actually more than useless. 7K miles of towing have passed, I now manage my payload much more carefully, the Cat Scales are my good friend, and have never had this problem with the truck again. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:32 AM   #212
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I read probably over 10k posts over bimmerfest and xoutpost and I do not recall people complaining about AC in X5. Maybe your vehicle needs some kind of fix.
Had it back to the dealer a few times for this issue alone. (Aside: Other than scheduled PM visits, this is the only thing that I have brought it in for.). I've demoed other 2017 and 2018 X5s in the heat of August, and they all behaved the same way.

The last time I was in for this, the dealership GM tried to get me to upgrade to the newly-refreshed model. When I reminded him of my AC challenges, he replied "Oh, they fixed that with the new body style." I honestly don't know if he is aware that the X5 has an under-cooled cabin problem that has indeed been fixed, or he is just saying what I want to hear so I will purchase a new XUV from him. In the end, my wife wants to go back to a Yukon XL (with amazing air conditioning!) so we'll be selling the Bimmer when GM's supply catches up.
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Old 10-28-2020, 09:34 AM   #213
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Jay

"GM recommends no WD for 2500HD/3500HD models, up to the maximum towing capacity."

I think you read or interpreted the chart you posted wrong. I do not take "not required" along with a "50%" redistribution as "reccomends no". Just that is not required. But I certainly see no reccomendation against useing the hitch with WD.
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Old 10-28-2020, 10:27 AM   #214
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One feature I do not hear discussed is the ability to do an emergency stop without having the TT and TV jacknife or for the combination to take so long to stop that the TV ended up driving right over the car that stopped a hundred feet sooner than you could. We have all seen the TV ad showing a P/U pulling a 747 but where is the video showing stopping distance? Car company engineers do have to consider the Federal Safety regulations even if the end user does not.
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Old 10-28-2020, 10:35 AM   #215
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Jay

"GM recommends no WD for 2500HD/3500HD models, up to the maximum towing capacity."

I think you read or interpreted the chart you posted wrong. I do not take "not required" along with a "50%" redistribution as "reccomends no". Just that is not required. But I certainly see no reccomendation against useing the hitch with WD.
"Not Required" is a strong indicator of you-don't-need-to-do-it-with-this-truck. It's clearly stated in black and white.

Indeed, I do use weight distribution on my 3500HD. But since it's not exactly required for towing within vehicle design parameters, I have experimented over the range of 0% to ~75% FALR. For my rig, there is a sweet spot at ~25% that gives the nicest ride.

Personally, I interpret the GM direction as "You don't really need any WD on this truck; but if you do want to, don't go higher than 25% FALR".



PS GM states 25% FALR for the 2500HD/3500HD, not the 50% that you mention above.
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Old 10-28-2020, 10:50 AM   #216
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In the auto industry , engineers do the design. But marking defines the parameters.

IE marketing tells the engineer what they need to design for.
some the design look the same, some markets get slightly to major differences.

ie BMW cars in NA have much larger engines than those in EURO. Most EU countries have high taxes for autos with > 2L engines.

In the UK, the most common engines are 1.4 L and 1.2 L. In NA, those small engines are very hard to no possible to order. Thus the brakes change also to accommodate engine size.

Its not that Eu engineers are dumb or don't know, they are told what to design for.
Its also their job to keep costs down, thus why would they design in a feature that adds weight and cost when their bosses did not ask for it.
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:00 AM   #217
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If you want to know the TV GVWR when towing, is it with WD or W/O WD?
What if your good with TV GVWR and over GCWR.

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Old 10-28-2020, 02:29 PM   #218
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If you want to know the TV GVWR when towing, is it with WD or W/O WD?
What if your good with TV GVWR and over GCWR.

Bob
1) with WD applied

2) since gcwr is about powertrain and braking more than vertical load, you could be taxing either. Good, and properly adjusted trailer brakes largely take care of the stopping. Powertrain components could be overloaded and temps ( coolant, trans, rear end) could be elevated.
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Old 10-28-2020, 04:28 PM   #219
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Just curious, the old Burb has always had 580 to spare when towing with a full load. ####'s👍
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:18 PM   #220
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Since the 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI 3.0L turbo diesel reached 205,000 miles and waa exhibiting the issues related to a reoccurring $3500 repair every 75,000 miles not mentioned in the sales literature, it was sold.

The Ram 2500HD Cummins already had the Hensley Arrow stinger left over from towing the 2013 25FB International Serenity. Thus it is no big deal to tow the 2015 23D International Serenity. I was able to remove then Tekonsha Prodigy RF brake controller and now use the Tuson brake controller for both the 31' Classic and the 23D.

I played with all of the numbers and the only SUV Toyota that was a reasonable tow vehicle by the numbers is the Sequoia (the more expensive Land Cruiser has the necessary towing numbers but not the air suspension of the top model Sequoia).

I am not sure the Sequoia would get the same mpg with the 5.7L V8 gasoline engine as the Ram gets with the 6.7L Cummins diesel.
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