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Old 07-11-2018, 03:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Adventure.AS View Post
I disagree. The hitch receiver upgrade makes a substantive improvement to your towing capacity. The towing capacity is not based on the overall suitability of the vehicle but only the receiver capacity.

The towing rating is based on the strength of the receiver in North America. IIRC a minimum of 10% of the trailer weight is the recommendation for the tongue weight. If the vehicle manufacturer engineers and manufacturers a low quality, stamped metal receiver that can only handle 500 lbs then it logically follows that the towing capacity would be 5,000 lbs.

However, if you increase the strength of the receiver to a Class IV (which is capable of handling a WD hitch with 1,000 tongue weight) then, if you stay with the 10% tongue weight rule of thumb, your trailer weight could be up to 10,000 lbs and it could be towed safely (i.e. avoiding sway at up to 65 mph), if loaded correctly.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:09 PM   #42
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Oh yea... with soft suspension (half ton trucks), high center of gravity, long rear overhang, terrible tires... they are "ENGINEERED and DESIGNED to tow"!

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Originally Posted by thewarden View Post
Todays trucks are certainly ENGINEERED and DESIGNED to tow. It is 2018, not 1918.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:00 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by bono View Post
Oh yea... with soft suspension (half ton trucks), high center of gravity, long rear overhang, terrible tires... they are "ENGINEERED and DESIGNED to tow"!
Who said anything about 1/2 ton. My 3/4 ton duramax begs to tow.
It says “yes sir, may I PLEASE have some more....”
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:55 PM   #44
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Oops, Pardon. Did not know that half ton is not considered truck / pickup anymore.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:46 PM   #45
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A quick tour through the spec sheet on the 2011 MDX list it to have quite a bit more capability than your run of the mill bicycle.

A V6 with 300 hp should pull well, but since no boost, expect a little loss of power at altitude. Also, to get that 300hp the engine needs to spin quite a lot. Be ready for that.

The 13" disks should stop well. Keep them maintained, look at pad upgrade to a more aggressive compound.

The 6 speed has decent ratios on the lower four, but the upper two are overdrives as they are on most multi-speed transmissions. So you were right to take control and shift down for the climbs. May be better to hold it down to 5th for the flat lands too.

The wheelbase is 108" (120" is better), but the PPP should help a lot to keep the rig on track. The independent suspension, stability control, traction control and rack/pinion steering all work together to keep the tire patch connected to the road.

As in the case of all SUVs and pickups, the center of gravity will be higher than ideal, but loading low in the vehicle helps with that issue. Keep the weight between the axles on the TV and over the axles on the coach. Traveling light in both the TV and the coach is always best. Keep the tanks empty when rolling long distance and climbing/descending. Take some bottled water as backup if you need it, because you can store it where it balances best. Secure loose items so they are not flying hazards in an excursion event.

Towing is harder on components than cruising, so shorter maintenance cycles are a good idea.

Weights are static measurements. They are used to project dynamic forces. Dynamic forces are usually the result of rapid accelerating or deceleration - not of the vehicle, but rather the components when transitioning bumps and pot holes. It helps for the vehicle speed to be reduced to minimize the component acceleration. So drive 50 mph, not 70 mph. Going West, it gets dull and you will be tempted. Resist .... at least a little. On rough roads, resist a lot.

It is worth your time to load up ready to travel and weigh the axles of the TT and the TV. That gives you a baseline to tune the rig.

I'm assuming you got lots of info from CanAm. If not, read Andy's towing articles and get them on the phone with your questions.

Good luck with your rig. Hope to see your smile down the road. Pat
Way too many facts for the spreadsheet engineers, armchair lawyers and insurance experts on here.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:19 PM   #46
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Any concerns about our Western Trip?

Steve
No.

The pull through the Rockies is not particularly hard unless you go south through Colorado. For example, the continental divide on I-90 is a 6% grade. You will still outpull the heaviest tractor-trailers. A little patience, and it's over in a few minutes.

The coastal mountains are actually more challenging, with their constant up and down. You will definitely do more shifting there.

Everything Andy Thomson ever told me turned out to be completely true. After more than 25,000 miles of towing, I have no desire to tow with anything but a car. Handling, stability, stopping power, straightline performance - you are giving up nothing, except for maybe the sheer hillclimbing power of a large turbodiesel. You *are* following the laws of physics - power to overcome aerodynamic drag, torque multiplication via gearing to accelerate and climb, load carrying via springs and axles and tires, a lower centre of gravity for safer and better handling, brakes that are effectively larger than 3/4 ton pickup brakes when the weight of the tow vehicle is considered (and a red herring because the trailer brakes stop the trailer). The unibody structure is far stiffer and more effective at transferring weight to the front tires via the weight distributing hitch than a body on frame pickup. Also (and this is ironic to me), the load carrying capacity of your vehicle is equal to or superior to many pickups.

Don't worry about it, just enjoy the drive. Seriously.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:57 PM   #47
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Appreciating the debate and variety of perspectives. I will consider and comment soon. Keep discussing! Thanks to all
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:31 PM   #48
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This thread will be closed by admins sooner than later.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:20 PM   #49
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Itís worth reviewing how SAE J2807 measures & classifies tow ratings.
Hint: itís as much about safe performance as it is GCWR/GAWR limits.

From edmunds: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...w-ratings.html
The new standard lays out minimum performance standards for acceleration, braking and handling. There are parking brake tests and grade-launch standards. The trailers used to conduct all such tests are spelled out specifically, and they must be ballasted and connected in a specific way. And J2807 sets a minimum speed for the truck-trailer combination when climbing a specific mountain grade ó the so-called "Davis Dam" grade that climbs eastward out of the Colorado River valley at Laughlin, Nevada. Cooling systems must bear the strain of the 11-mile trip when the outside temperature is at least 100 degrees and the air-conditioner is set to full blast.


This article from trucktrend provides specifics on the measurements: http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/


Finally, this article from autoblog feels that the new standard is still too forgiving: https://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/23/...dards-opinion/
There's only one way to know how much weight your pickup can tow, and it involves a trip to the scales, knowledge of what Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR), GVWR and Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) are and how to calculate it all.

SAE J2807, while somewhat optimistic, sets an industry standard for the definition of what you can tow safely within specific performance margins.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:00 AM   #50
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When we access a vehicle for towing capability we look at a many specifications. When you examine these you will find that tow ratings have very little to do with towing ability. In the early 90ís we knew the Chassis layout of a front drive van would be exceptionally stable but none had a strong enough drivetrain. In 98 Ford substantially upgraded the Windstar engine and transmission. In 99 Honda introduced the Odyssey. Almost immediately both Honda dealers in town bought trailers from us One a 30í low profile lite. The other a 30 Classic, they were sending customers in for trailers so within a year we were doing Odysseyís all the time. The MDX Pilot and Ridgeline all use the same basic platform. Interesting the Odyssey is the best tow vehicle has the lowest tow rating. Anyway since 1999 we have setup more than 2000 of these platforms over half are Odysseyís for towing. They have towed millions of miles all over the continent.
This is hardly an experimental combination. If you are ever in the London area stop in for a test drive and see what driving a modern dialled in tow vehicle is like. You can tow a 30í Airstream with a great tow vehicle rated for 1000 pounds which will out handle and out stop most vehicles with higher ratings. Ask for Marshall or myself if you want the E ticket ride.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:32 AM   #51
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Andrew,
Thanks for all you do, if you would not mind would you please comment on weight ratings and cargo capacity. How do you handle passenger load of say 2 adults, 2 kids, and a dog plus the tongue weight of the trailer.
Even with a dialed in weight distribution hitch, weight is still there just moved around. Right?
Do you beef up the springs and shocks? Airbags?
Iím as others are just trying to wrap our minds around it.
Would you also address why 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickup where not designed to tow.
My truck has a receiver, trans cooler, tow mode button on the end of the gear shifter. What design flaws does my truck have that make it not an ideal choice.
PLEASE donít think Iím being passive aggressive, Iím not. I think this info would be good for all.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:01 AM   #52
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Hitch Hints

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL View Post
Andrew,
Thanks for all you do, if you would not mind would you please comment on weight ratings and cargo capacity. How do you handle passenger load of say 2 adults, 2 kids, and a dog plus the tongue weight of the trailer.
Even with a dialed in weight distribution hitch, weight is still there just moved around. Right?
Do you beef up the springs and shocks? Airbags?
Iím as others are just trying to wrap our minds around it.
Would you also address why 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickup where not designed to tow.
My truck has a receiver, trans cooler, tow mode button on the end of the gear shifter. What design flaws does my truck have that make it not an ideal choice.
PLEASE donít think Iím being passive aggressive, Iím not. I think this info would be good for all.
Have you read Andyís ďHitch HintsĒ http://www.canamrv.ca/blog/category/hitch-hints/?
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:21 AM   #53
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Just adding to the questions posted for Andy; what do you do if someone has a wreck while towing and insurance company says the driver was out of spec on payload with said TV? Wondering if a lawsuit is filed, perhaps against the driver; would CanAm be involved with justifying vs the car manufacturer and the vehicle specs? Is Canada different then US in this regard? Serious questions I have always wondered about.

I had such an event many years ago with my Expedition where there was an injury in my vehicle when it rolled during a trip to Colorado for a ski trip. A gust of wind hit the vehicle and driver lost control. A lawsuit was launched by insurance company of the injured party. Ford was involved in the suite also since this was around the time there were issues with the tires. I remember lots of questions about how much weight, how many passengers/weights, loading on the roof, etc...it was settled, but I do remember we had to produce evidence of the gear and passengers, and luckily we were under the max payload at the time. Ford did pay out, but not without a fight.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:42 AM   #54
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Ford paid because you had an accident? Did them admit a design flaw? Otherwise, how they could be responsible for such accident?
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:27 PM   #55
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The point he is trying to make is that the insurance company paid a lot of attention to weights, loading, payloads etc. And I am sure that absolutely no good would have come for the vehicle owner if any of these things were beyond the vehicle manufacturers spec, regardless of the vehicles actual capabilities.

And you will also note that the onus was on the vehicle owner to prove that they did not overload some aspect of the vehicle. It is all about liability and vehicle manufacturers and insurance companies do everything they can to mitigate their risk in the event of some calamity. Unfortunately, it is the poor vehicle owner who is left holding the bag at the end of it all.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:06 PM   #56
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The point is that you hear a LOT of strange/interesting stories in internet. This one does not make any sense for me, unless Ford admitted a design flow.

I thought that this was made clear already that even if you are over mfg spec, in general insurance will not be denied. Sure, there will be a lot of questions, etc., but insurance is just for this purpose, to cover you.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:23 PM   #57
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Ford paid because you had an accident? Did them admit a design flaw? Otherwise, how they could be responsible for such accident?
Bono, this thread is getting off topic;

For every accident with injuries, most competent personal injury attorney's will sue in court: (1) the owner of the vehicle, (2) insurance provider for the vehicle, and
(3) manufacture of the vehicle.

No product design flaw of any type is required to convince a jury of your peers to award severe monetary damages .

So to those who think towing a 30' Airstream with a modified Acura MDX tow vehicle, there is an attorney just waiting for you someday to cause an accident with injury.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:58 PM   #58
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Everybody can sue. Only few can collect.

I understand that the US may be regarded a different world in terms of the legal environment than rest of the world (e.g. people very often expect the RV dealer to be responsible for bad TV/TT matching, expect Can-Am to be responsible for accident if the modified vehicle was involved, etc.).

However, I can't believe that Ford or any other manufacturer of the car would let to be responsible for accident, just because injury attorney had a fantasy to sue them. Unless there is design flow, faulty parts were used (tires), etc.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:30 PM   #59
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Yeah, I'll take the Diesel truck towing, Alex.

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We just made it from Ohio to Montana, and I mustíve said no less than 12 times, I donít know how people do this in anything but a vehicle designed specifically for towing. I pull a 30 foot flying cloud, with a Silverado 2500 with the Duramax diesel. This trip, and just under 1700 miles so far, made that truck work itís tail off. From the pulls up the steep grades, to the breaking down them, everything that goes into the design of these two vehicles, their engines, cooling systems, brake systems, steering, the list goes on, are designed to be able to handle the weight behind you. Never once did I feel like the tail was wagging the dog, but again, I shook my head repeatedly at how anyone would make this trip with anything less than what I took. The reality is that once you hit the Western states, and the speed limit is 80, the traffic around you is going to be going at that pace. While any of us donít need to speed, we do have to take in the consideration that we are driving on these highways, many of them without shoulders, and you have to be able to manage the risk around you. I donít want to be a Debbie downer either, but there is no way that I would take these trips, in a vehicle that has been modified. Keep in mind that weíre not talking a trip to the local state park here, we are talking the trips that traverse mountains and steep grades. I donít know the folks in Canada that do the tow modifications that are often referenced here. What I suspect though is that somewhere in their documentation, sales receipts, is a disclaimer that while theyíll make the modification, you assume all of the risk and if things go south, itís totally on you as the owner and driver. Look, they are in business to make a buck, their pitch is that they can make your vehicle towed ready for a couple thousand dollars versus buying a new vehicle. I think thereís a market for that if you are going to keep yourself local and in unchallenging areas of travel. As The person where the buck stops, you have to make a determination as to how much liability youíre willing to assume, not to mention the risk that you were exposing yourself and your passengers to by potentially overloading the tow vehicle with a trailer and contents that simply overwhelm the systems required to tow safely.
Yeah, that's about it. Well said jwpaquette.
I would love to pull my AS with my Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Hell yeah, jack up the trailer and head up into the National Forest. Even with 4.56 gearing, eh,,,no. Jeeps must roam free and the Dodge Ram with the Cummins must be the beast of burden to tow the AS across this vast nation and Canada. Did I say I really like Canada ? I like Canada.
I like Spruce trees and wide open spaces and the way the nice Canadian women talk in Quebec Love the accent.
But I digress,,
I am always on the look out for a late model D-Ram, extended cab with a Cummins, dually '2wd'. Low like a go cart!
Low center of gravity, and wide. You would have to work really hard to roll that one over!
Yeah, I'll take the truck,
safe travels
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:11 PM   #60
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FWIW

I own a 25FB, a Ford F150, and an MDX. I cannot imagine towing my trailer with the MDX.

I used to own a smaller trailer: about 16 feet and about 2000 pounds. I towed that once with the MDX and did not like how that felt.
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