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Old 10-18-2018, 02:36 PM   #301
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I read this story on this forum. Again, sue can many, collect may few. I know that there is a sue everyone culture in the US, but at the end I strongly believe there need to be reasonable reasons to sue someone and collect.

I just cannot see the direct link between a modification done by CanAm and their potential liability for an accident.

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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Well, as an American, I can tell you about liability...having gone thru this once with my American Ford Expedition...and a person injured in a roll over traveling in my SUV sued both Ford and my insurance company. They were interested in how the vehicle was loaded, how much equipment/luggage, how many people were in the vehicle, condition of the vehicle, tires, etc. My son had taken 5 college classmates on a ski trip to Colorado from Texas...someone else was driving when he hit a gust of wind and rolled. The injured person's insurance sued for medical damages. Fortunately for us, Ford and Firestone were involved with the final settlement along with my insurance company. I remember going to court on this. That was 24 years ago by the way.

I am truly interested in understanding liability for modifications outside manufacturers specifications for a vehicle pulling a travel trailer. Not that I would be doing this, but good to know. If someone was to get into an accident, for what ever reason; blowout, ice, loss of control, etc...there likely would be an investigation should you be towing a trailer and "my assumption" is you had better be within limits? I know there are mechanical modifications to vehicles and equipment which with a PE certification, are acceptable; just not sure of the status in this case. Sorry if that offends...just curious.
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:41 PM   #302
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I read this story on this forum. Again, sue can many, collect may few. I know that there is a sue everyone culture in the US, but at the end I strongly believe there need to be reasonable reasons to sue someone and collect.



I just cannot see the direct link between a modification done by CanAm and their potential liability for an accident.


They make tow vehicles safer, more stable and secure. They test their platforms and offer towing seminars. If I wreck my rig it’s certainly not their fault.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:43 PM   #303
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As an European, I cannot understand logic behind such questions. People need to learn to take responsibility for their actions. I assume that Andy does not tell the clients to tow above the manufacturer specs, only because he is modifying the hitches.

If a car towing anything is in an accident, the operator needs to take responsibility for the actions. Andy cannot force anybody to tow anything.

Some people are modifying / tuning the cars. Instead of e.g. 300 hp, the car has 400 hp. Instead of driving 150 mph, it drives 200 mph... on a public road... and there is an accident. Would you say that the shop which modified the car software is liable for this? Nonsense.


Thanks for a non-US perspective. As an American, I’m familiar with our lawsuit happy culture so would like to attempt to address your two main points - first the logic, and second, the software scenario and why I see it differently.

First the logic behind the questions - we have millions of personal injury attorneys in the US. Some percentage of their work strikes me as noble - the majority of it strikes me as the new lottery at best, bottom feeding at worst. “Have a hangnail after a manicure? Get the compensation you deserve!” They wouldn’t spend billions of dollars on advertising if there weren’t an ROI generated by their 33% of the take on awards. It’s even worse with class action suits where members get next to nothing and the lawyers take in millions. The logic behind the questions is the LACK of logic in a litigious society. My parents were poor as dirt. I was in accidents as a kid, got bit by dogs, was injured by friends. Never once did it cross my parents’ minds to sue our neighbors because life happens and kids sometimes bleed or get broken bones. Now to be clear - as I said - some of this is in fact noble - truly egregious action or inaction that causes severe harm should be addressed - but I’m generalizing to explain why this keeps coming up.

Your second point on the SW mods. I wouldn’t personally say the tuner was responsible - but I’m not the target audience. All a good lawyer needs is 12 people to like his or her compelling story, especially if the company doing the mods calculates a lower expense to settle than to defend for years through appeals. Again - either way - the lawyers win.

Last - the conclusion I’ve come to and mentioned in the forums before is this - I’m sure Andy knows what he’s doing and for whatever reason, that works in Canada. People in the states seem to like what he offers. And perhaps without being engineers themselves (I’m certainly not) rely on his representations that he’s to be trusted. If it were me, in this litigious society, I personally wouldn’t do it unless he first offered to cover anything I might lose with the TV manufacturer’s warranty because of the mods, and, his guarantee to cover the costs, indemnify and hold me harmless for any award against me that is based on the mods he performed. If that doesn’t work for him, that’s fine. He’s been in business for decades and however he’s doing it presumably works for him. He doesn’t need me (or likely want me ) as a customer. So I stick with the rig I have - despite being tempted to tow my 27FB with something other than a 3/4T diesel....

Not saying what’s right or wrong here - just tying to offer one person’s view on what must be a baffling observation outside the US.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:17 PM   #304
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Well, I can only imagine that life may be hard, if you need to worry about lawyer and his or her compelling story.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:57 AM   #305
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No one is going to hold you harmless for what happens when you’re driving your vehicle. They will sue up to your limits and then go after the next deeper pockets. Don’t worry, everyone else pays for this with higher rates. It’s like a lottery. Then everyone complains about insurance rates.

I remember the FIrestone lawsuits well. I remember seeing people give those SUVs to their kids to drive, with one or more underinflated tires, with predictable results. Many are still on the road. I swear many haven’t had the tires checked in years.

I used to tow with an SUV and it was fine. But after reading the stuff on here I decided to buy a 7500 lb pickup and never swerve.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:04 AM   #306
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What model etc SUV did you have? Which hitch system were you using?
What hitch system are you using on the truck?
What brand is your truck and is it a 4x4?
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:03 AM   #307
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Acura MDX towing

I agree that a vendor should not have liability in a case where a customer specifically directs the vendor to perform mods.

I think the main issue is educating customers sufficiently to make a choice. If a vendor says nothing, that’s hard to fault a vendor unless the “ask” is so plainly stupid.

But take the OP. My guess by their comments is that the OP has very little knowledge. They go to the vendor and ask: can I safely tow a 6500 lb (loaded) trailer with a vehicle that is not rated to tow a load this heavy?

What should a vendor advise? Andy provides his advise based on his considerable experience. Should he also tell the customer that the car is over its safety rating? Should he get an explicit waiver that the customer assumes responsibility? (actually does he?) should that waiver state that the modification will result in the vehicle exceeding its rated capacity, potentially voiding warranties? And what about insurance riders in which a policy may disclaim coverage for modifications that exceed ratings? (I need to look at my own policy now!)

Armed with this info, the customer is likely to inquire further. They may or may not seek more opinions (hopefully not just from an Internet forum), and they may consider other courses. Or they may do the mods. Their informed choice.

I put these questions out there only because they are relevant to ask. Once answered, I agree the owner should own responsibility unless the modification exceeds any common sense standard (like if a vendor modified the hitch on my old Honda Element in order to tow a FB25 - I think no reasonable person who has ever towed with that rig would ever think that was appropriate).

I am still going to recommend to the MDX owner that they shouldn’t combine an underrated tow rig with speeds that exceed the stock tire ratings, Hensley or no Hensley.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:12 AM   #308
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Well, I can only imagine that life may be hard, if you need to worry about lawyer and his or her compelling story.
Actually, life is not hard...it is "logical" and makes sense (to most of us) to consider your safety in all situations, as best you can. Many folks do what they want to anyway, right? (25 years in California!) I just don't want to be affected by any decisions that could cause problems to me or my family on the road. Odds are perhaps slim, but still...just good to be aware and alert.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:53 AM   #309
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I agree that a vendor should not have liability in a case where a customer specifically directs the vendor to perform mods.

I think the main issue is educating customers sufficiently to make a choice. If a vendor says nothing, that’s hard to fault a vendor unless the “ask” is so plainly stupid.

But take the OP. My guess by their comments is that the OP has very little knowledge. They go to the vendor and ask: can I safely tow a 6500 lb (loaded) trailer with a vehicle that is not rated to tow a load this heavy?

What should a vendor advise? Andy provides his advise based on his considerable experience. Should he also tell the customer that the car is over its safety rating? Should he get an explicit waiver that the customer assumes responsibility? (actually does he?) should that waiver state that the modification will result in the vehicle exceeding its rated capacity, potentially voiding warranties? And what about insurance riders in which a policy may disclaim coverage for modifications that exceed ratings? (I need to look at my own policy now!)

Armed with this info, the customer is likely to inquire further. They may or may not seek more opinions (hopefully not just from an Internet forum), and they may consider other courses. Or they may do the mods. Their informed choice.

I put these questions out there only because they are relevant to ask. Once answered, I agree the owner should own responsibility unless the modification exceeds any common sense standard (like if a vendor modified the hitch on my old Honda Element in order to tow a FB25 - I think no reasonable person who has ever towed with that rig would ever think that was appropriate).

I am still going to recommend to the MDX owner that they shouldn’t combine an underrated tow rig with speeds that exceed the stock tire ratings, Hensley or no Hensley.
Your reasoning is flawed. Most people go to CanAm because they are perceived as the end all to all questions in towing and hitches. They make the recommendations and the costumer authorizes the work. Based on their advice CanAm will be held responsible in a US court providing you can get them there. In Canada it is different.
In any event, anyone believing that modifying factory installed equipment or installing an expensive hitch will increase the payload or the towing capacity of a vehicle should not get in to towing anything.
A merchants objective is to make a sale. Buyer beware. This is elementary dear Whatson.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:44 AM   #310
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What model etc SUV did you have? Which hitch system were you using?
What hitch system are you using on the truck?
What brand is your truck and is it a 4x4?
Grand Cherokee Overland with an EZlift. Towed the 19’ great. Went to an F350. 4x4 gas, same hitch, also great. Then got a 27’ Serenity with a Hensley. Awesome hitch.

Now have a Ram 2500 Diesel, same 27’ and Hensley.

I’m not really sure how they handle evasive maneuvers. I don’t do a lot of swerving, don’t follow too close and don’t change lanes every 5 seconds.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:19 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Lara Me View Post
I agree that a vendor should not have liability in a case where a customer specifically directs the vendor to perform mods.

I think the main issue is educating customers sufficiently to make a choice. If a vendor says nothing, that’s hard to fault a vendor unless the “ask” is so plainly stupid.

But take the OP. My guess by their comments is that the OP has very little knowledge. They go to the vendor and ask: can I safely tow a 6500 lb (loaded) trailer with a vehicle that is not rated to tow a load this heavy?

What should a vendor advise? Andy provides his advise based on his considerable experience. Should he also tell the customer that the car is over its safety rating? Should he get an explicit waiver that the customer assumes responsibility? (actually does he?) should that waiver state that the modification will result in the vehicle exceeding its rated capacity, potentially voiding warranties? And what about insurance riders in which a policy may disclaim coverage for modifications that exceed ratings? (I need to look at my own policy now!)

Armed with this info, the customer is likely to inquire further. They may or may not seek more opinions (hopefully not just from an Internet forum), and they may consider other courses. Or they may do the mods. Their informed choice.

I put these questions out there only because they are relevant to ask. Once answered, I agree the owner should own responsibility unless the modification exceeds any common sense standard (like if a vendor modified the hitch on my old Honda Element in order to tow a FB25 - I think no reasonable person who has ever towed with that rig would ever think that was appropriate).

I am still going to recommend to the MDX owner that they shouldn’t combine an underrated tow rig with speeds that exceed the stock tire ratings, Hensley or no Hensley.


The tires on our Safari are Goodyear Endurance rated to 87 mph. Acura MDX tires are V rated to 143. I replaced 4 year old Goodyear Marathon’s before our trip due to reports of blowouts. Serviced the AS at Jackson Center before we left and MDX at Honda. In my research I found the MDX to be a capable vehicle for towing and had undergone rigorous towing tests which the second generation (see previous posts). My main concern was for the transmission but it did well and no overheating. I also am beyond any warranties. Everything was insured and insurance company was aware of our travel plans. I chose not to dwell on the liability issue because nowadays you can be sued for anything whether you are at fault or not, and even if there was no real injury.

We did not have full propane tanks and fresh water was 1/3 full. It was just my wife and I and no gear in the back of the vehicle. Tire inflation 45 psi MDX and 50 on TT. We did have a refrigerator and freezer full of food and clothes, dishes and anything else we would need for a month. Tried to put heavier items to the back of the trailer instead of the front. I had gotten a lot of this advice from this thread and very much appreciated it.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:23 PM   #312
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A lot of people are whining about sales people confirming that certain truck will pull certain trailer. Then they find out that the truck is a poor choice and want to sue the dealership for the advice. Not so fast... Dealership is in the business of selling trailers, not in the consulting business. Does the invoice state 'advisory in towing capabilities of certain truck'? This is just plain stupid approach in my opinion and people need to use their brains and learn things.

When I showed up with my X5 to pick up 33 ft long trailer, the dealer did not want to let me drive off. Why?! I am behind the wheel, I am responsible for my actions. The reason is this paranoia in the US that everyone can sue anyone. Just madness.



Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Your reasoning is flawed. Most people go to CanAm because they are perceived as the end all to all questions in towing and hitches. They make the recommendations and the costumer authorizes the work. Based on their advice CanAm will be held responsible in a US court providing you can get them there. In Canada it is different.
In any event, anyone believing that modifying factory installed equipment or installing an expensive hitch will increase the payload or the towing capacity of a vehicle should not get in to towing anything.
A merchants objective is to make a sale. Buyer beware. This is elementary dear Whatson.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:04 PM   #313
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Bono, you missed the part where the dealer makes vehicle mods like welding in strengthening bits to the vehicle to alter a vehicle so it can tow a trailer it is unambiguously not rated to tow, with assurance that it can therefore do so without issue.

That’s a bit more than just getting and relying upon an opinion.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:18 PM   #314
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When I showed up with my X5 to pick up 33 ft long trailer, the dealer did not want to let me drive off. Why?! I am behind the wheel, I am responsible for my actions. The reason is this paranoia in the US that everyone can sue anyone. Just madness.
Reminds me of renting a Genie/Terex man-lift with a 50 foot (reach) boom, mounted on a trailer. I showed up with my X5 to pick it up. It isn't so much that they didn't want to let me drive off, they had just never seen one in their rental yard and couldn't believe it could tow the trailer. It was around 4000 lbs IIRC, and narrow, towed great. But the look on his face was priceless.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:30 PM   #315
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Bono, you missed the part where the dealer makes vehicle mods like welding in strengthening bits to the vehicle to alter a vehicle so it can tow a trailer it is unambiguously not rated to tow, with assurance that it can therefore do so without issue.

That’s a bit more than just getting and relying upon an opinion.
The welding is to the receiver. I suppose you could weld to the vehicle, but that can cause issues with service access. Bolting is better. It is exactly the same as was done for decades before vehicle manufacturers started to offer light weight hitches from their dealers.

My last Euro SUV (X5, E53 model) didn't have a tow rating. The dealer offered a hitch receiver kit specific to my vehicle model, with a hitch rating, but the vehicle itself didn't have one. It did have Trailer Stability Control included in the DSC though, so it isn't like the engineers didn't plan for it to be used for towing. If I follow your logic, it seems you are saying it was unambiguously not rated to tow.

Far too much focus on manufacturer's tow ratings IMO. Worry about tire and axle ratings, which matter much more. This thread started with a poster planning a trip, and some told him not to even try it. He went, had a great time, and now the focus is that he will get sued. I guess some of those who were not proven right on the impending doom of travelling out west while towing with an SUV needed a new windmill to tilt at. I think the people running without proper attention paid to set up are the ones at risk of getting sued. Not using weight distribution, now there is a liability waiting for a payout.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:12 PM   #316
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The welding is to the receiver. I suppose you could weld to the vehicle, but that can cause issues with service access. Bolting is better. It is exactly the same as was done for decades before vehicle manufacturers started to offer light weight hitches from their dealers.

My last Euro SUV (X5, E53 model) didn't have a tow rating. The dealer offered a hitch receiver kit specific to my vehicle model, with a hitch rating, but the vehicle itself didn't have one. It did have Trailer Stability Control included in the DSC though, so it isn't like the engineers didn't plan for it to be used for towing. If I follow your logic, it seems you are saying it was unambiguously not rated to tow.

Far too much focus on manufacturer's tow ratings IMO. Worry about tire and axle ratings, which matter much more. This thread started with a poster planning a trip, and some told him not to even try it. He went, had a great time, and now the focus is that he will get sued. I guess some of those who were not proven right on the impending doom of travelling out west while towing with an SUV needed a new windmill to tilt at. I think the people running without proper attention paid to set up are the ones at risk of getting sued. Not using weight distribution, now there is a liability waiting for a payout.
And you keep on thinking that as long as your not in an accident, pulling with your modified SUV, which was NOT originally certified or designed to pull a 7500lb trailer, but indeed was "modified" to pull a 7500lb trailer, is ok in the US (not sure about Canada)? Again, who certifies that this combination is safe and stands behind you should you have an accident or something goes wrong? I know a PE is required for mechanical design including structural modifications; his license is on the line and is backed up typically with big insurance liability. Not sure about this application with SUV or other vehicles. Simple question which I have not heard an answer to yet?
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:44 PM   #317
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Acura MDX towing

[sarcasm] Can I just say again how much I love tow threads? [/sarcasm]

Gypsy, what is a PE?
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:53 PM   #318
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[sarcasm] Can I just say again how much I love tow threads? [/sarcasm]

Gypsy, what is a PE?
A PE is a Professional Engineer for our US cousins, where such things are state licensed. In Canada, we have P.Eng. designations. I am one (Mech), now retired. I have recertified ROPS and FOPS structures that have been modified (off road equipment). I have never recertified a receiver modification; since the original wasn't certified, there was no need to recertify it. There is no certification program that I am aware of. The laws to be concerned about are around axle and tire loads, those are the regulated items for non commercial carriers. Good idea not to exceed those.
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:02 PM   #319
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And you keep on thinking that as long as your not in an accident, pulling with your modified SUV, which was NOT originally certified or designed to pull a 7500lb trailer, but indeed was "modified" to pull a 7500lb trailer, is ok in the US (not sure about Canada)? Again, who certifies that this combination is safe and stands behind you should you have an accident or something goes wrong? I know a PE is required for mechanical design including structural modifications; his license is on the line and is backed up typically with big insurance liability. Not sure about this application with SUV or other vehicles. Simple question which I have not heard an answer to yet?
A PE is not required if you modify your personal car or truck. Manufacturers are another story. You’re responsible if you wreck (for the twenty millionth time lol). Drive safely.
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:41 PM   #320
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[sarcasm] Can I just say again how much I love tow threads? [/sarcasm]

Gypsy, what is a PE?
Me too. They’re hilarious. If there’s so much concern for “everyone on the highway” you guys should call said dealer and call them out instead of posting on here.

Tomorrow I’ll hook up my 27’ to my Trailblazer and post pics on here just to stir the pot.
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