A very hot tow vehicle

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jcl

I understand it wasn't conceived as a tow vehicle.

That doesn't mean it can't tow safely. It very likely means that the manufacturer doesn't have engineering data on that aspect, since it wasn't a design objective. Why would they?

It means the manufacturer doesn't trust the average idiot to tow with it. Some people should wear bubble wrap, too.

By the way, this thread is awesome. Thanks Andy!

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

It means the manufacturer doesn't trust the average idiot to tow with it. Some people should wear bubble wrap, too.

By the way, this thread is awesome. Thanks Andy!

Beeeecause........it wasn't conceived, designed, spec'ed nor built to tow.....that's why we don't trust for it to tow.

[rmkrum]

Sadly, to me, this is starting to sound a bit like the old philosophical argument about the "number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin".

Apparently somebody wants to tow with this vehicle, paid well to set it up properly by an experienced bunch of folks that know how to do it, and are quite probably happily towing their Airstream, sort of like a Bumblebee--who does not realize (or care) that he theoretically can't fly...

I'm quite sure he's smiling as he is truckin' down the road...

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Sadly, to me, this is starting to sound a bit like the old philosophical argument about the "number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin".

Apparently somebody wants to tow with this vehicle, paid well to set it up properly by an experienced bunch of folks that know how to do it, and are quite probably happily towing their Airstream, sort of like a Bumblebee--who does not realize (or care) that he theoretically can't fly...

I'm quite sure he's smiling as he is truckin' down the road...

I didn't see a hitch in the picture. I think the one who is laughing is Andy.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

I didn't see a hitch in the picture. I think the one who is laughing is Andy.

Post 1, pic 2

[Castaway]

I am not a mechanic, engineer or even a very smart man, but if I would see this setup on the road I would stay clear of it. Just because you can do something doesn't make it right or safe. At the Airstream plant in Jackson Center there is a picture of a man on a bike pulling an Airstream, does that mean we should be hooking up our Schwinns and go camping?

[Countryboy59]

Oh for Gods sake. You guys need to all go have a beer. Or six. Grab a cheese sandwich and watch TV. Nice and safe there.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Beeeecause........it wasn't conceived, designed, spec'ed nor built to tow.....that's why we don't trust for it to tow.

I want to be careful not to put words in your mouth.

But I think you may mean that it wasn't conceived, designed, spec'ed nor built to tow, so you are unable to recommend it to tow.

It seems that the lack of trust may be based on a lack of validation and testing. That is very fair. And fully expected if towing was not in the design brief. But it is very different from GM testing it and finding that it failed somehow, something that some posters in this thread seem to be assuming as fact, when they say that GM calls it a poor tow vehicle.

It may be a great tow vehicle with no available standard hitch (and limited cargo space). It also likely doesn't have a tow mode in the stability control program, nor a tow mode in the transmission control. But if it is in fact a poor tow vehicle based on having failed validation and testing, that would be good to know.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

It means the manufacturer doesn't trust the average idiot to tow with it. Some people should wear bubble wrap, too.

By the way, this thread is awesome. Thanks Andy!

Agree on all counts.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by mikeinca

Unlikely, because to me it seems...unlikely... although maybe not impossible.

But you missed my point, J.Morgan. Your hypothetical was that somehow GM could be right about the Camaro being a poor tow vehicle and someone else could be right because they did something to turn it into a "great tow vehicle". So I'm curious; specifically, what was done, or what do you think was done, to make it "great"? Are those modifications described somewhere in this thread? Could you please direct me to the post #?

Somehow I think that even if that Camaro proved to be an excellent tow vehicle for ten years in a row you would still be opposed to it on principle.... lol, and that is ok.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by jcl

I want to be careful not to put words in your mouth.

But I think you may mean that it wasn't conceived, designed, spec'ed nor built to tow, so you are unable to recommend it to tow.

It seems that the lack of trust may be based on a lack of validation and testing. That is very fair. And fully expected if towing was not in the design brief. But it is very different from GM testing it and finding that it failed somehow, something that some posters in this thread seem to be assuming as fact, when they say that GM calls it a poor tow vehicle.

It may be a great tow vehicle with no available standard hitch (and limited cargo space). It also likely doesn't have a tow mode in the stability control program, nor a tow mode in the transmission control. But if it is in fact a poor tow vehicle based on having failed validation and testing, that would be good to know.

Testing was never a consideration as it was by design intent NOT a tow vehicle.

[xrvr]

Originally Posted by jcl

Completely agree. That was my point. It doesn’t seem to me that GM said it was unsafe. They didn’t take a position on that question as far as I can tell. That is why I pushed back on those who suggested insurance would be cancelled for doing something GM supposedly said you can’t do.



Take two hypothetical people towing. One uses a Camaro. Works with a supplier that has done this many times. Pays attention to details. Has slalom test results and other data. Knows what his/her vehicle can and can’t do. Second one buys a largish truck. Believes that the tow rating in and of itself gives him safety. Doesn’t need to weigh anything, in his own mind. Doesn’t pay attention to hitch setup. Maybe even doesn’t use anything other than a ball to tow because he/she “can’t even tell it’s back there.”

The second one is the one who gives me pause.

If the second person has years kf experience towing and the first is a newby, ill go with the second one, regardless of tv.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Can anybody pull the metadata from Andy's photos? Check if they were taken on 1st of April.

Jim

One more time..........

Jim

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Testing was never a consideration as it was by design intent NOT a tow vehicle.

Thanks, that is what I would have expected based on having been in some of those product development meetings you described earlier (but not at GM).

So it appears that GM is saying, very fairly I might add, that they can't comment on whether it is a good towing vehicle or not, as it is a question that never came up. If so, that is quite different from the claim of some others here that GM calls it a poor tow vehicle.

It also explains why there aren't warnings about towing in the manual, despite all the other warnings contained there on other uses. There would seem to be nothing to base those warnings on, apart from the warning GM does provide in the manual to deduct tongue weight from the vehicle payload figure.

[rmkrum]

Looking at some of the online pictures of some towing lash-ups, the wide variety of finagles and weird engineering that some rigs exhibit makes me feel that I might be too paranoid, towing a 23' International with a 1/2 ton Tacoma and a ProPride.

There have been more than a few I've given a wide berth on the road just to keep from being involved in the inevitable...

[dznf0g]

Jcl, you're missing something in your presumed summary. It does NOT mean that is is an unknown. It means that no system on the vehicle is designed toward the unique operating characteristics and duty cycle of towing.

[dznf0g]

Also, compare the warnings about towing with a vehicle, many of which are required, for a vehicle which has a tow rating. Like Malibu or impala, or whatever. You won't find those warnings in camaro, volt, bolt.....because towing isn't a design feature of those lines. You seem to be looking for a loophole in verbiage. No loopholes.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Looking at some of the online pictures of some towing lash-ups, the wide variety of finagles and weird engineering that some rigs exhibit makes me feel that I might be too paranoid, towing a 23' International with a 1/2 ton Tacoma and a ProPride.

There have been more than a few I've given a wide berth on the road just to keep from being involved in the inevitable...

Is Tacoma a half ton?

[rmkrum]

Yup. And it tows "just fine" the way I've got it set up and adjusted. Stops real good too--even in Phoenix, AZ afternoon traffic.** And it goes nicely across Texas even when I get passed by big rigs while I was doing 75+...in a moment of inattention!


**Have i mentioned lately how much I hate the drivers in Phoenix? Locked up ALL 8 avoiding some knucklehead that stopped short after dodging around ME...

And yes, I've been given permission to buy a Tundra...next year. Until then, I run what I brung...

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Yup. And it tows "just fine" the way I've got it set up and adjusted. Stops real good too--even in Phoenix, AZ afternoon traffic.** And it goes nicely across Texas even when I get passed by big rigs while I was doing 75+...in a moment of inattention!


**Have i mentioned lately how much I hate the drivers in Phoenix? Locked up ALL 8 avoiding some knucklehead that stopped short after dodging around ME...

And yes, I've been given permission to buy a Tundra...next year. Until then, I run what I brung...

Want a real treat? Go to a one ton. I'll defend people's freedom to tow with whatever they want, but I'll never go back to half ton or less.

As far as being scared of the Camaro, come on down to Detroit. Half ton pickups with rusted through frames towing lawn trailers, Grand Ams with three donut spares, people driving with hazards or blinkers on for miles...I'd be comforted to see Andy's rig on the road.