A very hot tow vehicle

[ROBERT CROSS]

I'm just glad we enjoy 'Camping' and not just toeing, I have no desire to go Sports Car Camping.

We enjoy our stuff too much, plus..... where do I put the boat?...

Bob

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Yes there is. Let's just take the diff. While it can handle the full torque of the car going, say, zero to 120mph over, say 20 seconds, the temp buildup of extended cruising at a substantially higher torque (due to very high continuous load) will take it's toll. Will it explode pulling away from a stop? No. But overloading is cumulative.
That's just one component. The system will suffer.

To use that example, the diff, consider the power required for steady state cruising at the sort of speeds typically encountered while towing an Airstream (perhaps 100 km/hr?). Let's call that x hp. Now take the trailer off, and run the vehicle at a higher speed, one which requires the same x horsepower for steady state cruise. It will obviously be a higher speed. But aero drag climbs pretty fast, and vehicle top speed will be limited by aero drag. So we know that unless the vehicle required 460 hp to tow the trailer, this new cruising speed is less than top speed. How fast do you think the vehicle will be going at the same power level? Do you think the vehicle will fail the diff if driven at that speed? You have to consider that at this new speed, it is not only the same torque load applied to the diff as when towing at a lower speed, but the fact that the vehicle (and diff) are running at a much higher speed. I struggle to understand why the diff wouldn't be designed for that load.

What many people fail to consider is that towing isn't a very demanding task for a modern powertrain. I was recently reviewing Ford's maintenance recommendations for the Ecoboost powertrain. I saw that up to full rated towing capacity, they don't even consider it severe service, and thus don't shorten the service intervals (for the engine or the diff). They don't think the heavy towing application is demanding enough to even require more frequent lubricant changes, something that they do call for in their list of uses that does define severe service.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

"Trailer Towing

General Towing

Information

The vehicle is neither designed nor

intended to tow a trailer."

From the 2017 Camero owner manual

It's not intended to drag race or do tire smoking burnouts either, but people do and without any long term issue.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

It's not intended to drag race or do tire smoking burnouts either, but people do and without any long term issue.

Until there is an accident while towing, and the insurance company denies coverage and cancels the policy?

[SteveSueMac]

I think it's fascinating that a guy who works at GM, posts the text of the manual that says the car is neither designed nor intended for towing, and explains why that is so in his opinion - is then quoted so his opinion can be corrected....

I would love to tow my AS with a small car. If the company performing the mods will honor any car manufacturer's warranty should they decline for unintended use reasons, and agree to defend and indemnify me in any civil case brought against me that involves my towing a trailer with a vehicle neither designed nor intended for that purpose - I'm all in.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

I think it's fascinating that a guy who works at GM, posts the text of the manual that says the car is neither designed nor intended for towing, and explains why that is so in his opinion - is then quoted so his opinion can be corrected....

I would love to tow my AS with a small car. If the company performing the mods will honor any car manufacturer's warranty should they decline for unintended use reasons, and agree to defend and indemnify me in any civil case brought against me that involves my towing a trailer with a vehicle neither designed nor intended for that purpose - I'm all in.

Good luck with that one!

Andy, do you offer this kind of protection for your modified tow vehicles?

Thanks

[Countryboy59]

No one is going to indemnify you for things that go wrong from towing or drag racing, or other abuses of your vehicle. People have to take at least some responsibility for their actions, even nowadays.

[Bruce B]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

I would love to tow my AS with a small car.

I wouldn't. I prefer my truck to most cars under most situations!
I love my wife Audi SQ5 but I'd rather do miles in our truck...
Maybe it from all of those years spent maintaining European cars and driving them...
Bruce

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

No one is going to indemnify you for things that go wrong from towing or drag racing, or other abuses of your vehicle. People have to take at least some responsibility for their actions, even nowadays.

But does the installer of the unapproved hitches and chassis modifications explicitly agree to indemnify the tow vehicle owner, if his or her vehicle is involved in an accident [tow related], and the insurance company and vehicle mfg. deny coverage?

Does the installer take “some responsibility” in this situation?

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Over the years we have setup several sports cars for towing.
. . .

Would you please chime in here, and let us know what kind of disclosures you provide for tow vehicle owners, about the possibility that their vehicle manufacturer, and/or insurance company, may deny coverage for a tow-related accident, allegedly caused by your modified hitch setups?

Do you also provide a written guaranty that you will indemnify the vehicle owner in such a situation, including damages [in a civil suit] for personal injury or death, as suggested by SteveSueMac?

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

. . .
. . . If the company performing the mods will honor any car manufacturer's warranty should they decline for unintended use reasons, and agree to defend and indemnify me in any civil case brought against me that involves my towing a trailer with a vehicle neither designed nor intended for that purpose - I'm all in.

Thanks,

Peter

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

No one is going to indemnify you for things that go wrong from towing or drag racing, or other abuses of your vehicle. People have to take at least some responsibility for their actions, even nowadays.

I'm glad to take responsibility for what I do/n't do. Not being an engineer, I would have to look to a company like Andy's to do this if I wanted it done. Since I'm not the engineer - and I presume he is - I would have to rely on his representations. The manufacturer (GM in this case) is explicit in saying the car is neither designed nor intended for towing - the perfect setup for GM denying warranty claims and for a lottery-happy civil suit to empty my pockets. The shop (not necessarily only Andy's) will accept income to modify such a car and say it's safe for towing. I would simply want some backing behind that from the company doing the mods before committing to them. If that's not happening, I'll stick with my truck.

[ROBERT CROSS]

My feelings....I think these modifications should only be allowed on vehicles designed & manufactured in Canada.

Now that would solve the controversy......no?

Bob

[OTRA15]

Well said, once again, SSM.

[J. Morgan]

Who has driven that Camaro/Airstream combination who can call it unsafe or even less capable that their own setup?

Anyone?

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Who has driven that Camaro/Airstream combination who can call it unsafe or even less capable that their own setup?

Anyone?

If in fact it is both safe and capable, why should any insurance company or government agency be allowed to deny the owners liberty of operating the vehicle combination of his or her choice?

[OTRA15]

No one is denying anyone the freedom to drive the modified car!

No one said that!

The possible repercussions from the insurance company are more nuanced than that, in the event of an accident, so please re-read the last 8 or so posts.

What is possibly being denied is insurance coverage for operation of a vehicle outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, which results in an accident.

[as if a careful reading of recent posts does not already make this clear!]

Have you ever had to fight with an insurance company about something like this? Not a pleasant territory to enter!

PS -- Please do not "extend" this discussion under some twisted logic about a hypothetical factual situation which has not been set forth already.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

No one is denying anyone the freedom to drive the modified car!

No one said that!

The possible repercussions from the insurance company are more nuanced than that, in the event of an accident, so please re-read the last 8 or so posts.

What is possibly being denied is insurance coverage for operation of a vehicle outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, which results in an accident.

[as if a careful reading of recent posts does not already make this clear!]

If an insurance company sells coverage without a specific exclusion, they are bound to cover the exposure they sold.

[ROBERT CROSS]

???

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

If an insurance company sells coverage without a specific exclusion, they are bound to cover the exposure they sold.

That being the case, the Camaro owner would know up front whether his insurance is going to be a problem or not.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

If an insurance company sells coverage without a specific exclusion, they are bound to cover the exposure they sold.

Not if the car has been secretly modified, without the insurance company's knowledge or consent IMO.

No way would this fly.

Of course if Andrew, or the vehicle owner, sends photos to the company [detailing all the hitch work], and gets its consent for coverage, all would be well.

How often is this done? Rarely IMO.

PS -- When you get insurance coverage for a vehicle, you have to name the mfg/model/size/etc. and provide the VIN. Using the VIN you can pull up the window sticker which lists ALL of the options. Andrew's hitch setup would of course not be on the window sticker. From the insurance company's perspective, the window sticker lists all of the extra components of the vehicle. If it is not on the sticker, it does not exist, and does not become part of the insurance coverage, unless all the parties agree on subsequent additions and modifications.

We went through a nightmare last year dealing with our tow vehicle being rear-ended and totaled, and the window sticker's options being listed correctly resulted in us receiving a favorable result.