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Old 11-21-2018, 12:06 PM   #21
Wolfwhistle
 
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I'm with you Kanusport. WDH is not necessary and your comment in getting the TWR up over 10% is right on. Sway control, for me is important, but my comfort level is not your's. I have seen the results of out of control sway to not have some.

I like the Andersen and let mine go with the toyhauler I recently sold. It might be the only hitch I know of that will let you have near zero WDH and still give you sway control, regardless. Its light and stays on while backing. Some won't shop Andersen anymore (all of us know why). I was more or less stuck with a Blue OX Sway Pro and am okay with it now.

Like others commented, I don't see how 240# TW couldn't move 280# from the steering axle to drive axle if all things were equal. For this to be true, the ball would have to be at a greater distance behind the drive axle as the steering axle is forward of the drive... more than your wheelbase.

Or, could your own weight have been on different scale pads, or even on the scale one time but not on it the next?? It looks possible.

On my truck, a Super Cab with 6.5' bed... 41% of the TW was moved from steering to drive axle. If indeed 280# was moved from the front axle, granted our trucks are different, it seems to me that would take roughly 700# of TW to accomplish this.

Oh, I love the new truck. Might be the quickest to 0 to 60 of anything other than, motorcycles, I have ever owned. Pulling up into the Smoky Mts and back resulted in a 13.6 MPG hand calculated - round trip economy. Again, this was pulling a 5800# trailer. I tried to stay around 65 MPH, but might have slipped up to 75 MPH if it was warranted.
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Old 11-21-2018, 03:16 PM   #22
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Kanusport, thanks for sharing your detailed experience with the community! As one who has experienced sway on I-90 near Madison (yes, I remember the exact spot) and itís a terrifying thing. The wifeís response was ďI never want to go through that again in my lifeĒ. In our case the solution was to increase capacity of the Blue Ox bars.
BTW, your Ford Ecoboost has a turbocharger - not a screw (supercharger). Keep up the great posts!
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/eng...superchargers/
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:58 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jeffmc306 View Post
Kanusport, thanks for sharing your detailed experience with the community! As one who has experienced sway on I-90 near Madison (yes, I remember the exact spot) and itís a terrifying thing. The wifeís response was ďI never want to go through that again in my lifeĒ. In our case the solution was to increase capacity of the Blue Ox bars.
BTW, your Ford Ecoboost has a turbocharger - not a screw (supercharger). Keep up the great posts!
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/eng...superchargers/
jeffmc306, screw or (sometimes spelled Screw or SCrew) is a Ford slang for Super Crew... the 4 door cab model.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:42 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by jeffmc306 View Post
Kanusport, thanks for sharing your detailed experience with the community! As one who has experienced sway on I-90 near Madison (yes, I remember the exact spot) and itís a terrifying thing. The wifeís response was ďI never want to go through that again in my lifeĒ. In our case the solution was to increase capacity of the Blue Ox bars.
BTW, your Ford Ecoboost has a turbocharger - not a screw (supercharger). Keep up the great posts!
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/eng...superchargers/
As the other poster noted itís slang for supercrew. Plus itís not just one turbocharger itís two. But I appreciate the lively discussion.

Happy camping.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:29 AM   #25
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Ah, thanks for the clarification; not up to date on the Ford slang :-). I knew it’s a twin turbo though!
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Old 12-11-2018, 11:19 AM   #26
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OP, your “idea” about WDH isn’t bad, per se, it’s that you have incomplete information, misleading information, and lack information. (There’s more to it than I’ll sketch below).

First is, incomplete. Once the hitch is closed it is no longer a hitch. It has become a steering component. This is true with any articulated vehicle. How well the steering responds is DIRECTLY at issue.

Second is, misleading. Belief that the automakers place your well-being above their profit is foolishness. SAE has published papers on towing dating back to 1965 (Bundorf) and we’ve quoted them around here. There are also those of us with close to fifty-years experience with this. We find it defies belief that SAE J2807 is suddenly concerned about over and under-steer issues they somehow missed for a half-century. In fact the holes are big enough to drive your RV through it.

The latest guidelines you appear to reference are quite handy in eliminating from consideration better tow vehicles than pickups (themselves the least stable vehicles sold . . but highly profitable). “Tow ratings” mean next to nothing when the majority of vehicles arent even tested.

Nor does that testing place the needed premium on steering & handling & braking.

Not does it take into account the problems of adverse winds (mainly, but not always, crosswinds). TTs are NOT comparable to other trailer types.

“How” the testing is done is at issue. What determines articulated rig stability. Foremost is that tires stay on the ground DESPITE maneuvers. (Where a pickup is a penalty by every measure, and WORSE when towing). The revised guidelines cure a next to non-existent problem while exacerbating existing serious ones.

Then, the lack of information. Starting with a numerical baseline as you’ve done is the right course. Your TARE weight should represent the load seen with driver, max fuel and any and all gear kept permanently aboard. To the day you sell it. This is your adjusted empty weight. The published shipping weight is now invalidated.

The TARE weight is the scale values versus the manufacturer axle/wheel/tire ratings. The legal limits. (Tow rating &. payload capacity have no bearing in law). Note the difference from scale reading to maximum allowance. Get this reading.

The series you did above is okay, but it needs the following:

1). TV loaded as if for camping trip. All passengers and gear aboard both vehicles. Full propane & fresh water in TT. No changes between weighing.

All gear in the TV must be secured against movement in any direction. And, that the weight in the bed is on or ahead of the axle tube centerline.

The TT must be dead-level according to a carpenters level placed across the door threshold once hitched. (Can’t ignore this. It’s black::white. Must be corrected).

Start that day by getting cold tire pressure readings before vehicles move. On arrival at CAT Scale (phone app handy) start by topping off fuel tank.

2). Cross the scale hitched.

3). Drop the trailer and do a second pass.

That’s the basic without WD. With a WD hitch one crosses with hitch tensioned, then hitch relaxed, and then solo.

To get more detailed, weigh the four corners of the TV by getting first port and then starboard tires just off of scale when solo.

With the TT, you’ll need to ask the Scalemaster (fuel desk) for a tandem axle “split” (directions in manual kept at that desk).

A). The TV tires are to be adjusted according to Scale values. The vehicle manufacturer has a high & low number. Inside that range you may consult the tire industry Load & Pressure Tables for the tire type and design to get a close match. One DOES NOT use pressures beyond this to “tune” combined vehicle response. The maximum amount of tire tread contact in all directions is critical to stability.

B). TT tires are always to maximum sidewall pressure.

This is where one starts. How it drives in this condition is the baseline. Trailer dead level. Tires according to book. All gear properly stored & secured. Representative load in both vehicles.

The real test is a double emergency lane change at speed. A solo pickup can’t do it adequately at 55-mph. Towing, maybe fifty, but only then with a Hensley-patent WDH. It comes after others.

So your first set of tests is braking distance. Solo and hitched. In above condition. The well-sorted rig will come to a complete stop sooner when towing.

The second set is how well the trailer brakes — alone — slow the rig to a stop.

Anyone burdened by typical trailer drum brakes knows that the first tests are a one-shot affair. There will not be any reserve capacity from the drums.

The important test of TT brakes is one we hope is never used. An out-of-control sway event. Oscillation. The single cure is SIMULTANEOUS manual maximum application of TT brakes and FULL ENGINE THROTTLE. Nothing less. It’ll be over in under three seconds. You control or you roll.

The second is on knowing the relative highest speed from which the TT brakes REALLY perform. 30-mph if you’re lucky, but 15-20 is more likely. (Most of us use this kind of test to choose brake controller settings for loose and wet pavements).

The emergency double lane change is best with an observer. As you’ve no hitch-based antisway, I wouldn’t exceed 25-mph the first time. (In fact I wouldn’t do it all with your rig).

Conversely, I can do this maneuver starting from the travel lane to the right onto the shoulder and whipping the wheel out to the median and then back to the travel lane — on the throttle — at nearly 60-mph with my 18k, 63’ long rig. All day long. Ask yourself how it is that rig at nearly double the weight and 50% longer is so much more capable (in signature).

Understand that the trailer tongue is a lever. And that scale values are static. The dynamic forces at play while at speed aren’t simply right-left, or up-down, but are rotational. That TW force can increase X10 depending on factors past what the two vehicles are doing. Pavement camber, pavement smoothness and wind loads are just the start.

A WDH spreads those forces from one point to three. From ONLY the Drive Axle to Steer and Trailer as well. You might say it cuts the tops off the spikes off the rise in force were it graphed. And you’d be right. As it isn’t the pounds of a static weighing at issue, it’s the percentage of distribution along the whole of the rig.

The typical integrated WDH has up to a few hundred pounds of sway resistance. The original is still the best of this (obsolete) type, the REESE DUAL CAM Strait-Line.

The only types worth consideration are the Jim Hensley patent design: the Hensley Arrow (and Cub) built under license, or the revised patent design, Pro Pride. The advantage of a fifth wheel type hitch, but also CANNOT sway.

The selection of TT, TV and hitch are equally weighted. Screw up one, and it screws up the rest. Screw up two, and you’re part of the 95% who’ll never know what a well-sorted rig is like. And have increased their chances of a loss-of-control accident.

Talk of skill is laughable. Don’t go there.

Risk reduction is the name of the game. Equipment comes first. Verification. Second is in the hitch rigging and associated acquired values. Then testing.
Annual confirmation is also basic.

Driver skill is little more than best habits. From trip planning to highway vehicle minimum spacing. Risk reduction, again.

It really doesn’t matter that you can run 80-mph under ideal conditions. You can’t maneuver nor can you stop.

Trailer-based electronic antisway is faster than vehicle OEM. Trailer anti-lock disc brakes are also a worthy upgrade. Both through TUSON.

Pickups are bottom feeder tow vehicles. The worst. But there are upgrades which are helpful. A rear Panhard Rod will keep the rear axle centered under the body. High quality aftermarket shocks are worthwhile. And polyurethane anti-roll bar bushings a cheap upgrade. A Hensley-type is pretty well mandatory. As an Airstream will stay upright longer than a pickup. The pickup IS the weak link.

Pickups are outside safe operation while towing above 60-mph. Solo, above 65. (And those are a stretch, so long as nothing goes wrong.)

With or without WD the first order of business is the shortest possible hitch shank. Order one undrilled. (Yes, one inch makes a difference). This same approach for any hitch type.

As noted by others, your TW may not be what you currently think. Where it genuinely is lower than 10%, the rear axle can be lowered using bar stock.

Don’t be so quick to believe initial impresssions about your. rig. A WDH WILL make your rig easier to drive. It will add a slight amount of anti-sway even if not an integrated design. They aren’t hard to use. The cheapest ones in price when when well-set add stability.

As before it’s a trio: TV, TT and hitch rigging. Three equal parts.

Your trailer type demands WDH. It isn’t trailer weight that counts for much. It’s the TT sail area that does.

And also as above: there’s detail on every point not discussed.

Your easiest start is two-fold: The book by Fred Puhn, “How to Make Your Car Handle” covers the basics well enough as a layman’s reference that you’ll understand SAE & Airstream consultant Andrew Thomson’s published writings & videos.

He’s taken what the rest of us learned since 1967 and formulated decision trees about what works & why. His family RV dealership (Can Am RV; London, ON) has set more than 10,000 trailer rigs. He posts here as Andrew_T. Read his posts and threads from the beginning. All of them. See the dealer website for more.

Some random guy on the Internet indeed knows more than you. Or Fords “Engineers”. With experience to back it. And a choir of those of us not today’s new guys who believe ten years “experience” with only a pickup and bad hitch rigging is worth hearing.

The default AS rig down the highway is a pickemup with the AS bouncing along on the front axle.

You could take my word for it — I’m third generation with this trailer type the past fifty years, and drive commercially the past dozen — and do your tests accordingly and be ahead.

Or you can educate yourself by reaching farther.

The point to owning an Airstream is to vacation. Chase shirt-sleeve weather. With the drive itself being uneventful. Slow enough to enjoy the scenery. In a rig capable of basic safety (meaning it reacts closely to what you’re used to: the solo vehicle). The family car was and is still the best choice. As the vast majority of miles are solo. For this the AS was designed. A low COG, independent suspension and truly aerodynamic travel trailer hitched to a 4,000-lb, 122” WB fully independent suspension low COG car (with short rear overhang) is the benchmark. Everyone else is adding BandAids.

At the very least fix the present shortcomings. Verify, Record, Test. Then Confirm.

And, welcome!


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Old 11-09-2019, 09:36 AM   #27
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I had a chance to weigh the trailer at the same scale I did when I bought the trailer a year ago. This weigh was different then the first in that it was the truck and trailer loaded with my wife and dog and all our stuff. Ie full propane, water and all camping supplies. I only did one pass here it is. I’ll add the truck tows great and I am towing on the ball.
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:39 AM   #28
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I didn’t realize what a hot topic WDH was on the forum when I was a newbie here. Anyhow, I still don’t use WDH and have no plans to. I am however considering Hayes electronic sway control. I like the Hayes because it gives you sway control via trailer braking as well as seems to be one of the only one I can find that is usable in inclement weather. I use my airstream in the winter too so that’s important for me. I’d be happy to hear any other ideas on sway control in inclement weather.

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Old 11-10-2019, 04:46 AM   #29
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Agree that you don't need a wd hitch to tow a 22 with an F-150. In fact a wd hitch would actually make your rig less stable by removing weight from your truck's rear wheels. You want to keep a healthy load there to keep sway under control.

Another problem with wd hitches is that having springs at the hitch point can result in severe porpoising on wavy roads, especially when towing a single axle trailer.

Some manufacturers of sway control devices will actually tell you to disengage them on slippery surfaces. They could cause understeer and your rig will go straight when you want it to turn.

Other manufacturers will tell you to disengage your tow vehicle's electronic sway control when using their hitch. I would not use such a hitch. ESC is a great innovation that can save you in an emergency.

I like the concept of the Hayes trailer ESC. Trailer manufacturers should build this feature into their trailer brake systems.

The bottom line is, though, if your tow vehicle is properly sized, and your trailer is properly loaded with 10-15% tongue weight, you won't need a wd or sway control hitch.
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:53 AM   #30
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The opposite is true for me. WDH does take weight off the the drive axle but puts weight back into the steer axle that is needed for all but light trailers (-5100#). Has to be adjusted properly because you can over do it. My WDH drastically reduces porpoising. To attain max towing WDH is required per truck manufactures. A very light trailer (under 5000-5100#) doesn’t require WDH. Not sure what the 22 footer tongue weighs. I tow a 4000# TA cargo trailer on the ball without issues. I wouldn’t dream of towing my 23FB or larger without WDH. My headlights would be in the trees.
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