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Old 01-21-2015, 05:47 PM   #21
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Look at the Tacoma. Why change anything about an outdated truck when it is still number 1 in the small truck market. The big 3 changes are motivated by government cafe standards. Toyota and Nissan may stop producing big pickups rather than conform to standards. Nissan introducing a diesel may be their step toward complying with the standard. When it cones down to it, Toyota could make a diesel with a 6 cylinder Hino diesel engine. We'll see.
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Old 01-21-2015, 05:52 PM   #22
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...and we'll see how the Colorado/Canyon eats that 73% Tacoma market share......
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Old 01-21-2015, 06:39 PM   #23
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It all depends on how you define "improvements". My Titan has analog gauges (except the odo). Mechanical knobs and switches. I have to lower my own tailgate and move my own seat fore and aft. But none of this stuff has ever broken in 10 years and 183000 miles.

What is that shiny new lcd screen going to cost to replace? Do you need touch screens? Sonar? Leather seats? WiFi? Bluetooth? In your truck? How are all those spiffy little toys going to hold up for the next ten years? Will any of the protocols (WiFi, Bluetooth etc.) still be in use in three years, much less 10.

When the time comes, I'd like a new truck a lot like my old one. Simple, robust mechanical systems, a nice ride, starts every day,
Fewest computers possible. Comfortable seats.

But it's not going to happen. Whatever I buy will be chock full of gadgets. Expensive, complex gadgets. I just hope they are as well engineered and long-lived as the modern powerplants.

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Old 01-21-2015, 06:56 PM   #24
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It all depends on how you define "improvements". My Titan has analog gauges (except the odo). Mechanical knobs and switches. I have to lower my own tailgate and move my own seat fore and aft. But none of this stuff has ever broken in 10 years and 183000 miles.

What is that shiny new lcd screen going to cost to replace? Do you need touch screens? Sonar? Leather seats? WiFi? Bluetooth? In your truck? How are all those spiffy little toys going to hold up for the next ten years? Will any of the protocols (WiFi, Bluetooth etc.) still be in use in three years, much less 10.

When the time comes, I'd like a new truck a lot like my old one. Simple, robust mechanical systems, a nice ride, starts every day,
Fewest computers possible. Comfortable seats.

But it's not going to happen. Whatever I buy will be chock full of gadgets. Expensive, complex gadgets. I just hope they are as well engineered and long-lived as the modern powerplants.

Mike

The same complaints were being made prior to the first installation of computers into cars in 1980.
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Old 01-21-2015, 07:05 PM   #25
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I am kind of a Luddite. But, I don't even want to think about going back to a carb or a mechanical distributor. Or drum brakes...

But, you sit inside Brand _____________(fill in the name of your favorite) and turn the key (if it has one) and it looks a lot like the docking scenes in Kubrick's 2001, A Space Odyssey.

Rant over. Tired now. Need beer.

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Old 01-21-2015, 07:40 PM   #26
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That's because they aren't Japanese at all. It is designed in California and manufactured in Mississippi. These trucks are most likely not even exported to Japan.
The companies are and thus top level decisions down are made that way. So from a perspective of motivation. Although I know they are designed in house. That being said, car companies seem to shuffle management regularly, and each one puts different priorities on different market segments.

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Look at the Tacoma. Why change anything about an outdated truck when it is still number 1 in the small truck market. The big 3 changes are motivated by government cafe standards. Toyota and Nissan may stop producing big pickups rather than conform to standards. Nissan introducing a diesel may be their step toward complying with the standard. When it cones down to it, Toyota could make a diesel with a 6 cylinder Hino diesel engine. We'll see.
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...and we'll see how the Colorado/Canyon eats that 73% Tacoma market share......
I've loved the Taco, and almost built one as an Expo rig. Got take a look at a coworkers new Colorado, and man, government motors stepped up the game. Worlds above that turd they where producing. And I think a serious contender against the Tacoma.

But you know the Tacoma is kind of cemented now, Ford all up and exited that market, Dodge doesn't have the Dakota anymore and GM was producing a subpar truck for awhile people forgot.

But then again, the Camaro got really terrible for awhile and when it returned it dug into Mustang sales hard, but that only lasted 4 yrs before Mustang climbed back on top. But the stang has always been a better value.

But the Tacoma's have a seriously following, especially in the offroad community. The only reason I never bought one myself when finding a vehicle to build as an expo rig was that pricing wise, I could buy a fullsize truck for just a full grand more.

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It all depends on how you define "improvements". My Titan has analog gauges (except the odo). Mechanical knobs and switches. I have to lower my own tailgate and move my own seat fore and aft. But none of this stuff has ever broken in 10 years and 183000 miles.

What is that shiny new lcd screen going to cost to replace? Do you need touch screens? Sonar? Leather seats? WiFi? Bluetooth? In your truck? How are all those spiffy little toys going to hold up for the next ten years? Will any of the protocols (WiFi, Bluetooth etc.) still be in use in three years, much less 10.

When the time comes, I'd like a new truck a lot like my old one. Simple, robust mechanical systems, a nice ride, starts every day,
Fewest computers possible. Comfortable seats.

But it's not going to happen. Whatever I buy will be chock full of gadgets. Expensive, complex gadgets. I just hope they are as well engineered and long-lived as the modern powerplants.

Mike
Well my Trailblazer is a 2003 and all that stuff still works. And the Ram is a 2010 so it's 5 years old and still all works.

And well, we've got an original ipod floating around and last time I fiddled with that thing from 2001 it still worked.

I'd define improvements as things that add to the functionality of the vehicle rather than just bells and whistles. Like projector headlamps at this point in time should just be standard. They're proven. I'm annoyed they're mostly an option on trucks.

But then again I'm a automotive enthusiast. Not really a 1 single brand guy, I can appreciate every vehicle for what it is.

-----

Back to the Titan here, that XD variant that isn't a 3/4 ton but more than a 1/2 ton, it's very very interesting to me. I think it might become it's own market segment in the next few years. I posted above earlier that GM had a 1500HD for a couple of years.

Could be interesting to see if others go there. I think if Toyota does it, the big 3 might follow suite.
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Old 01-21-2015, 07:57 PM   #27
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Bold, only time will tell. The current Tacoma is very old and tired. Why give the public what they are paying for, when their only competition is a more tired and weak Frontier. The much balley hooed "all new Tacoma" on the horizon will be the tale in the making. Our intel seems to contradict their public statements. I predict the new one will be a relatively minor redo....or will be delayed for at least a year from their claims. I hear they were very shocked to see GM's return to the market and when they got their early intel in relative to the Colorado, they went "Oh Sh**!!" and went back to the drawing board for a ground up major.

YES, corporate spying is alive and well.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:05 PM   #28
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Also, the 1500hd was a stop gap. The market suddenly went to very heavy crew cab demand. The GMT800 (1500)was nearing the end of it's engineering lifecycle. Problem was, adding a crew to the existing 800 program left little payload. GM took the 2500 frame and detuned the suspension (and other associated parts) to bridge the gap until the all new chassis GMT900 (1500) line came up.....then there was "no need" for a 1500hd.

BUT, I still scream for a detuned suspensioned 2500 with a 6.2 liter spec'ed for the RV and boating market. But, I have no pull whatsoever.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:21 PM   #29
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I am kind of surprised that you prefer the Italian engine. I am not a diesel guy but even I have always heard that Cummins built seriously fine power plants.

But, time will tell...

Mike
I've always been leery of doing a manufacturer's R&D for them. From what I've heard, people are pretty happy with the VM Motori diesel (and it evidently has a proven track record in Europe). Not much is known about the Cummins V8.

FWIW, I'm sticking with my 6.7 Cummins.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:28 PM   #30
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The new Colorado should give Nissan and Toyota to update the Frontier and Tacoma. Ford and Ram should also get back into the compact truck market. The XTerra, Armada, and Titan are also very overdue for a makeover.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:34 PM   #31
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The new Colorado should give Nissan and Toyota to update the Frontier and Tacoma. Ford and Ram should also get back into the compact truck market. The XTerra, Armada, and Titan are also very overdue for a makeover.
Rainy days and Mondays always get me down...
The small truck market isn't large enough in North America to support more than 2 1/2 players. That's why GM got out (believing that a new Ranger was in the works) until Ford dropped out, presumably to apply the resources to the F150 BIG STAKES GAMBLE. When Ford dropped out we went into full speed development mode.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:07 PM   #32
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I've always been leery of doing a manufacturer's R&D for them. From what I've heard, people are pretty happy with the VM Motori diesel (and it evidently has a proven track record in Europe). Not much is known about the Cummins V8.

FWIW, I'm sticking with my 6.7 Cummins.

I read somewhere that VM Motori is the 2nd largest manufacturer of (light duty?) Diesel engine after Mercedes. It gets great mileage in 1500 and is also very quiet (for a diesel).
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:11 PM   #33
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Bold, only time will tell. The current Tacoma is very old and tired. Why give the public what they are paying for, when their only competition is a more tired and weak Frontier. The much balley hooed "all new Tacoma" on the horizon will be the tale in the making. Our intel seems to contradict their public statements. I predict the new one will be a relatively minor redo....or will be delayed for at least a year from their claims. I hear they were very shocked to see GM's return to the market and when they got their early intel in relative to the Colorado, they went "Oh Sh**!!" and went back to the drawing board for a ground up major.

YES, corporate spying is alive and well.

The new Tacoma is rumored to have 3.6 liter V6 with direct injection (maybe similar to the engine in the new Highlander?)and a 6 speed transmission, so the changes would not be just sheet metal. It will be interesting to see what the market share numbers are in a year or two.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:21 PM   #34
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I didn't say sheet metal. I'm talking about a complete robust chassis change, along with all new body structure, and modern electrical architecture. Sharing powertrains isn't uncommon. Colorado, for example, uses the 2.5 liter and the 3.6 liter....already proven in other products. The diesel in 2016 is new in North America, but not globally.

As I DID say, it will be interesting to see if they can accelerate a "true" all new truck, or do a....what I call a "minor, major".
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:28 PM   #35
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I didn't say sheet metal. I'm talking about a complete robust chassis change, along with all new body structure, and modern electrical architecture. Sharing powertrains isn't uncommon. Colorado, for example, uses the 2.5 liter and the 3.6 liter....already proven in other products. The diesel in 2016 is new in North America, but not globally.

As I DID say, it will be interesting to see if they can accelerate a "true" all new truck, or do a....what I call a "minor, major".

I would think the incremental change is intentional. I guess Toyota cares more about being reliable than having an "all new" truck. The changes in Tundra were even less significant (no drive train change).
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:42 PM   #36
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Incremental change is always intentional. Everybody does it. Typically a truck life cycle is 7 - 10 years. During that time there is customarily a couple "refreshes" and one "minor". Refresh is just to keep the guys on a 3 year trade cycle with something fresh. It usually only changes grills, lights, interior fabrics, textures and maybe moves some switches around...and minimal sheet metal changes (stamping dies are EXPENSIVE). A "minor" usually has several sheet metal changes...maybe some smaller powertrain changes, and usually some moderate interior changes.

Everybody does this cycle. But the speculation that this is a "major" has me scratching my head. It's possible.....but I really think it's either a minor with a true major in maybe 17 or 18...or they will announce a "delay" in introduction sometime after the auto show circuit is over.

Been there, bought tickets to the show....everybody does that too. DON'T believe the mags, until you see iron on the pavement.
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Old 01-22-2015, 05:46 AM   #37
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The big 3 go for the 7-year redesign-
Toyota and Nissan go for the 10-year redesign-
The Tacoma looked good enough in 2005, but it is time-
The Frontier/XTerra/Armada looked good in 2005, but are way overdue-
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:00 AM   #38
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Gm and ford are in together on the new 10 speed transmission, the Italian diesel is mostly owned by gm but dodge is going to use it,the auto manufactures are all working together to get your monies and they want all of it. I will still keep my 6.7 cummins.Some one mentioned the Mercedes diesel, only thing I know is that in the big trucks they are weak compared to the big cats or cummins and who wants to drive a under powered truck?
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:05 AM   #39
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Gm and ford are in together on the new 10 speed transmission, the Italian diesel is mostly owned by gm but dodge is going to use it,the auto manufactures are all working together to get your monies and they want all of it. I will still keep my 6.7 cummins.Some one mentioned the Mercedes diesel, only thing I know is that in the big trucks they are weak compared to the big cats or cummins and who wants to drive a under powered truck?
GM no longer owns any interest in VM Motori, it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of Fiat now and has been for a couple of years.
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:31 AM   #40
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Also, the 1500hd was a stop gap. The market suddenly went to very heavy crew cab demand. The GMT800 (1500)was nearing the end of it's engineering lifecycle. Problem was, adding a crew to the existing 800 program left little payload. GM took the 2500 frame and detuned the suspension (and other associated parts) to bridge the gap until the all new chassis GMT900 (1500) line came up.....then there was "no need" for a 1500hd.

BUT, I still scream for a detuned suspensioned 2500 with a 6.2 liter spec'ed for the RV and boating market. But, I have no pull whatsoever.
GM didn't actually detune the suspension on the HD 1500. They just rebadged the 8600 GVW when they brought out the 9200 to accommodate the diesel weight.
I ordered as many of them as I could get for the dealership as people who wouldn't buy an 8600lb because of the"rough ride" had no problem with the HD 1500. Mind games, but it would be a great to offer it again.


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