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Old 10-07-2018, 10:57 AM   #41
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Same here Bob. Loved those VW Beetles............Heaters sucked, however you could go just about anywhere and if you did get stuck. Everyone got out, grabbed the bumper and lifted...........
Yes to old beetles. Had 1962 then in winter of 62 roads closed couldn't get to work, stuck 1/2 mile from home [country rds], walked home got wifes beetle out went across fields to town no prob. or getting stuck. We have all wheel drive car & I have had 4whd pu since later 60s, wouldn't be w/out ever again even if only use few times a yr. It's great ins. when living in country and plows don't come as my rd. drifts in very rapidly & rd. com. doesn't understand, only concentrates on unincorperated subdivisions. [That's where most votes are]. New com. last election a little better. Time will tell. Rd. my prop. curve big prob. school bus hit head on mail carrier same thing because prev. com. wouldn't plow or salt, plus num. accidents w/serious injuries & 1 fatality this lack of maintenance summer & winter by previous com. New com. listens when alerted of prob. so far. also has improved rd. on corner. Bottom line 4wh or 2wh. I love 4wh & awh.
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:51 AM   #42
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This Beetle talk is making me chuckle, as I remember living halfway up Grouse Mountain, in North Vancouver in the early 70's, (imagine the steep stepped streets of San Fransico covered in wet snow); my Dad's 72 Super Beetle was the only vehicle that would make it up......he would even give rides to the neighbours.

Not a lot of 4wd's back then. Infact, in our sub division, I don't recall anyone owning a truck at all.

Cheer
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:57 AM   #43
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Yes to old beetles. Had 1962 then in winter of 62 roads closed couldn't get to work, stuck 1/2 mile from home [country rds], walked home got wifes beetle out went across fields to town no prob. or getting stuck. We have all wheel drive car & I have had 4whd pu since later 60s, wouldn't be w/out ever again even if only use few times a yr. It's great ins. when living in country and plows don't come as my rd. drifts in very rapidly & rd. com. doesn't understand, only concentrates on unincorperated subdivisions. [That's where most votes are]. New com. last election a little better. Time will tell. Rd. my prop. curve big prob. school bus hit head on mail carrier same thing because prev. com. wouldn't plow or salt, plus num. accidents w/serious injuries & 1 fatality this lack of maintenance summer & winter by previous com. New com. listens when alerted of prob. so far. also has improved rd. on corner. Bottom line 4wh or 2wh. I love 4wh & awh.
Dates mixed up was 1972 not 1962.
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:58 AM   #44
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I would love to hear from anyone that thinks 2WD in snow is just as safe as 4WD or safer......
I'll take a 2wd with a set of great winter tires, over a 4wd with all seasons, any day. Even my 4wd's get good winter tires for the below reasons.

4wd is an acceleration aid, not a traction aid, (that's your choice in tires); it will not make you stop faster, or turn better, (if fact, with a front axle locked, it will have a greater tendency to plough straight on); couple that with a higher center of gravity, your chances of rolling a SUV or 4wd pick up is greater than a 2wd vehicle.

Unfortunately, most people that drive 4wd's or AWD's, drive with a false sense of security and drive faster than they should in poor conditions....is that safe?

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Old 10-07-2018, 02:08 PM   #45
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I'll take a 2wd with a set of great winter tires, over a 4wd with all seasons, any day. Even my 4wd's get good winter tires for the below reasons.
And I'll take 4WD with a set of good tires for my travels. No reason to handicap myself if I have a choice. Cheers.
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Old 10-07-2018, 03:41 PM   #46
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And I'll take 4WD with a set of good tires for my travels. No reason to handicap myself if I have a choice. Cheers.
Do you mean 4WD with a centre diff so that it is always engaged, or a truck style part time 4WD? If the former, wouldn’t that be better labelled AWD?
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Old 10-07-2018, 03:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
Unfortunately, most people that drive 4wd's or AWD's, drive with a false sense of security and drive faster than they should in poor conditions....is that safe?
And people who text while driving are a hazard, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a cell phone in the car with you. Not really fair to blame the technology for people who misuse it.

4WD/AWD vehicles with proper rubber and driven responsibly are almost always more capable and safer in poor conditions.
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Old 10-07-2018, 03:56 PM   #48
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Do you mean 4WD with a centre diff so that it is always engaged, or a truck style part time 4WD? If the former, wouldn’t that be better labelled AWD?
4WD vs AWD depending on who you ask can be the same, or be subtly different. There's many distinct architectures too. Industry nomenclature has AWD describing passenger car based systems, and 4WD as SUV/truck based full time systems.

In my case with a LX570 (aka Land Cruiser), it is generally described as 4WD. Lockable center differential, low range transfer case, and many other tricks up its sleeve.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:37 PM   #49
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Hi

I'm amazed at the number of people who can't drive in snow without a 4x4. I grew up in snow country. We went skiing every winter. I did a lot of camping in the winter (otherwise what would you do 6 months out of the year ... ). We never had 4x4's and I don't ever remember getting stuck and needing a tow. That includes a lot of back roads that hadn't seen a plow for quite a while.

Bob
But that was back when real snow tires were the norm. Those bias snow tires would eat the radial snow tires of today. Firestone advertised if you got stuck they would pay the tow bill.
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:38 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
What's your point here. 4x4 is not an exotic option, with barely any compromises, and lots of advantages.

Could just as easily say... I'm amazed at the number of people who can't tow an AS without a 3/4 ton.

Preference and personal needs should not be dismissed. Not to mention some very legitimate reasons.

Hey Pteck how's it going, well I hope.


It is not that we can not tow an AS w/o a 3/4 ton or plus truck. It is because we choose not too because we can and we will............ Be well.



Best regards and safe travels
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:58 PM   #51
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Hi

I'm amazed at the number of people who can't drive in snow without a 4x4. I grew up in snow country. We went skiing every winter. I did a lot of camping in the winter (otherwise what would you do 6 months out of the year ... ). We never had 4x4's and I don't ever remember getting stuck and needing a tow. That includes a lot of back roads that hadn't seen a plow for quite a while.

Bob

Hello Bob, I am just amazed of how may people can not drive period.....


Be well, best regards, and safe travels.
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Old 10-07-2018, 08:18 PM   #52
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I agree sbowman!
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:16 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
4WD vs AWD depending on who you ask can be the same, or be subtly different. There's many distinct architectures too. Industry nomenclature has AWD describing passenger car based systems, and 4WD as SUV/truck based full time systems.

In my case with a LX570 (aka Land Cruiser), it is generally described as 4WD. Lockable center differential, low range transfer case, and many other tricks up its sleeve.
My BMWs have generally been described as 4wd when installed in an X model, and AWD when installed in a sedan or touring model, even though they have the same hardware. The key is the centre differential. You have one, I have one, but many HD pickups don’t, so they by definition have part time 4wd systems. Where 4wd doesnt matter until it is engaged. Making the earlier comments by some posters about driving on snow covered roads somewhat irrelevant, unless one accepts accelerated tire wear and occasional binding.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:39 PM   #54
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My BMWs have generally been described as 4wd when installed in an X model, and AWD when installed in a sedan or touring model, even though they have the same hardware. The key is the centre differential. You have one, I have one, but many HD pickups don’t, so they by definition have part time 4wd systems. Where 4wd doesnt matter until it is engaged. Making the earlier comments by some posters about driving on snow covered roads somewhat irrelevant, unless one accepts accelerated tire wear and occasional binding.
Yes, good point. The distinction of the not having a center differential, and only part time 4WD capability is usually referred to as a 4x4. Not that I'm absolutely correct on this either, as these variations and nomenclature is loosely adhered to at best. Confusing at worst.

I agree that the 4x4 systems as implemented in majority of trucks is not as useful as the center differential enhanced full time 4WD and AWD systems. Using a 4x4, or locked center 4WD mode in snow and ice can be treacherous in itself for the uninitiated. As without a center differential, it will force slippage of tires in a turn. With a bit of speed will cause a loss of lateral traction at a lower threshold, potentially resulting in a spin.

Lots of people love their pickups / HD trucks. They come with advantages, but 4WD traction for all conditions is not one of them. It's no wonder why some die-hard truck people here fail to appreciate the advantages of all wheel drive, because of the relatively lesser utility part time 4x4 systems offer.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:48 PM   #55
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Hey Pteck how's it going, well I hope.


It is not that we can not tow an AS w/o a 3/4 ton or plus truck. It is because we choose not too because we can and we will............ Be well.



Best regards and safe travels
If you read what I quoted in my post, I was simply teasing that some people might actually want or need 4WD. Just like how some might want or need a 3/4 ton. I think we may agree, no one persons opinion, perspective, or decision suits everyone.
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Old 10-08-2018, 06:24 AM   #56
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2 wheel drive vs 4 wheel

The first thing I do when I buy a new truck is get rid of the All Seasons tires and have Winter/Snow tires installed. I run them 24/7/365. No Winter tire changeover, no early snowstorms to worry about, no storing another set of tires, nothing. They wear out sooner but that’s the cost of doing business.

Temperature has a great deal to do with how slick the roads are. The closer to 32 deg. F you are the more problems you’re gonna have.
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Old 10-08-2018, 06:57 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by pteck View Post
What's your point here. 4x4 is not an exotic option, with barely any compromises, and lots of advantages.

Could just as easily say... I'm amazed at the number of people who can't tow an AS without a 3/4 ton.

Preference and personal needs should not be dismissed. Not to mention some very legitimate reasons.
Hi

No it's not a "no compromise" option. They are heavy and cut payload a lot. People go crazy over payload numbers, put a 4x4 on the truck and then go "why no payload?". On a practical basis, I can get a 2WD that is much closer to the ground than a 4x4. It doesn't *have* to be that way, but that's how they build them. High off the ground is *not* what you want in a tow vehicle. They also mess up the front end when they do a 4x4 and that degrades handling over what it *could* have been (but often isn't ... again their choice).

So do I own a 4x4 ... yup. But it is very much a compromise.

Bob
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:02 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
I'll take a 2wd with a set of great winter tires, over a 4wd with all seasons, any day. Even my 4wd's get good winter tires for the below reasons.

4wd is an acceleration aid, not a traction aid, (that's your choice in tires); it will not make you stop faster, or turn better, (if fact, with a front axle locked, it will have a greater tendency to plough straight on); couple that with a higher center of gravity, your chances of rolling a SUV or 4wd pick up is greater than a 2wd vehicle.

Unfortunately, most people that drive 4wd's or AWD's, drive with a false sense of security and drive faster than they should in poor conditions....is that safe?

Cheers
Sidekick Tony
Hi

Bingo !!!

Going to fast in the snow is generally a very bad idea. Doubly so if there's ice somewhere in the picture.

Operator error is generally an issue with most vehicle accidents. It may be your error or the other guy's. It may be induced by a cell phone, a case of beer, or something else. 4x4 induced errors are very common. I've seen a *LOT* of them.

Bob
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:01 AM   #59
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Hi

No it's not a "no compromise" option. They are heavy and cut payload a lot. People go crazy over payload numbers, put a 4x4 on the truck and then go "why no payload?". On a practical basis, I can get a 2WD that is much closer to the ground than a 4x4. It doesn't *have* to be that way, but that's how they build them. High off the ground is *not* what you want in a tow vehicle. They also mess up the front end when they do a 4x4 and that degrades handling over what it *could* have been (but often isn't ... again their choice).

So do I own a 4x4 ... yup. But it is very much a compromise.

Bob
Let me put it this way. Your HD 4x4 truck is the compromise you choose. No one forced that on you. Yes, lots of compromises with a solid front axle, poor handling, jacked up posture, and everything else you state.

Have you considered that the world doesn't revolve around your perspective of trucks and 4x4s?

I experience none of those compromises. My choice of a tow vehicle is a built from the ground up as 4WD vehicle. It is not jacked up (though can be), still has great handling, with plenty of payload to support the way I travel. Sure, I don't have as much payload as a F250, but I don't need it. I gain a plethora of advantages, like a luxurious ride, seating for 8, with tons of niceties for the way I want to travel. That to me makes 4WD zero compromise, and a huge advantage for the boondocking I enjoy.
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Old 10-08-2018, 10:15 AM   #60
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Sure, I don't have as much payload as a F250, but I don't need it. I gain a plethora of advantages, like a luxurious ride, seating for 8, with tons of niceties for the way I want to travel. That to me makes 4WD zero compromise, and a huge advantage for the boondocking I enjoy.
In my ideal world my Volvo would be capable of towing 9000 lbs and have 2700 lbs of payload, not only because of everything you say but because I could have saved $60k on a new 250. Though as much as I love my Volvo, after many cross country trips in old Saabs, I’m not sure I want to be stuck on the Alcan highway in a Swedish car in need of repair.

So for better or worse this world will have to do. I couldn’t confidently make the numbers work for my family of 4, not only with my Volvo, but with a 150, an Expedition, or any other vehicle. I realize I’m a newbie, and maybe after some experience I’ll have a better feel for where the line between adequate and overkill is. But just going by the numbers (which is what The Law will do), I was over payload or axle limits every single time.

Alas.

Peter, you can’t carry 8 people in your Lexus *and* tow your Airstream, can you? I’ve made my proverbial bed and will lie in it but I got the impression that loaded tongue weight and a couple of adults was about it for most vehicles.
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