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Old 12-17-2020, 11:28 AM   #81
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re: tires, stickers and payload

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
GAWRs are a good limit to respect. I would add tire ratings to that, but it will usually only be a limiting factor if you have changed tires to ones with different load ratings.

I would add the strength of the receiver to the list. If the receiver is able to transmit the applied WD forces, eg to restore front axle loads, then that is a good sign. Sometimes, tow ratings can be reduced by a manufacturer below the vehicle capability because of the limitations of the installed hitch receiver.

If you are within the above ratings, and the combination is set up properly, and handles well, then I wouldn't worry.

If you are a commercial carrier, subject to DOT regulations, then I would also consider GVWR, as it is an enforced rating for purposes of licensing (both operator and vehicle).
Recent research revealed that the 6.7 liter diesel 2020 F350 and F250, (similarly equipped), share the same body, frame, brakes, engine, transmission, and axles (Dana 60 front for 4X4 and Dana 275M rear). Difference appears limited to spring packs and badging.

Owning a 2017 diesel F350 with a fabulous payload, I note the door sticker requires rear tire inflation of 80lbs. Checking a 2020 F250 (similarly equipped) door sticker rear tire inflation - same load range E tires - is 65lbs. Tires are marked at 80lbs max cold inflation, just like the F350 tires. Spring pack on the F250 is obviously much lighter duty.

I am relying on info dug out by another person, confirmed by others who work on these things. I am not saying a similarly equipped F250 will carry all that a 2020 F350 might by airing up the rear tires. Just observing and adding data to my limited collection. That said, if a 2020 F250 operator ends up at the limit of payload, it may be less worrisome for those that care.
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Old 12-17-2020, 03:40 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjshier View Post
Recent research revealed that the 6.7 liter diesel 2020 F350 and F250, (similarly equipped), share the same body, frame, brakes, engine, transmission, and axles (Dana 60 front for 4X4 and Dana 275M rear). Difference appears limited to spring packs and badging.

Owning a 2017 diesel F350 with a fabulous payload, I note the door sticker requires rear tire inflation of 80lbs. Checking a 2020 F250 (similarly equipped) door sticker rear tire inflation - same load range E tires - is 65lbs. Tires are marked at 80lbs max cold inflation, just like the F350 tires. Spring pack on the F250 is obviously much lighter duty.w

I am relying on info dug out by another person, confirmed by others who work on these things. I am not saying a similarly equipped F250 will carry all that a 2020 F350 might by airing up the rear tires. Just observing and adding data to my limited collection. That said, if a 2020 F250 operator ends up at the limit of payload, it may be less worrisome for those that care.
Consider the "door sticker" may not match the tires you have on the vehicle, right? On my F250 I run my Michelins at max psi 80 cold, per the tire, when towing the 28' and bed full of gear. Door sticker says 65 rear, 60 front. If I put 65 in rear, I notice the tire sagging at 65-70.
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Old 12-17-2020, 07:23 PM   #83
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FYI, the Ford tire pressure guidance wasn't their best for your situation. 73-80 is good for the rear axle. Closer to 75 psi will be easier on the trailer and passengers while still providing good rear end cornering stability. You want to run your fronts closer to 60 psi though as Ford suggests. It will be far more stable to allow the front tires to slip more in emergency situations and at 80 psi, cornering stiffness wont allow that. Running 80 on all fours makes you susceptible to jackknifing in an emergency. You will have no way of knowing that running 80 psi all around is not stable until it is too late, so if you have questions about this advise ask.
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Old 12-18-2020, 08:02 AM   #84
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Do you mean “GCWR” and not “GVWR”? Big difference. GVWR is the weight of the loaded truck, hitched up to the trailer. GCWR is the combined weight of the trailer and truck, all loaded up.

Add up the “steer” and “drive” axle numbers from the cat scale sheet and compare that to the GVWR as stated in the sticker inside the door jamb. Also compare those values against the GAWR values in the same sticker. You’ll run afoul of those numbers probably long before you get close to the GCWR number.

My F350 has a GVWR of 11,500.😀
KK4YZ, thanks for the correction. The sentence in question should read: 'Our total weight on our most recent trip was 13,640 (vs GCWR of 18,100); she was at 15,490 (vs GCWR of 16,100).' And, yes, we are below the TV's GAWR and GVWR as well.
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Old 12-18-2020, 08:28 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
FYI, the Ford tire pressure guidance wasn't their best for your situation. 73-80 is good for the rear axle. Closer to 75 psi will be easier on the trailer and passengers while still providing good rear end cornering stability. You want to run your fronts closer to 60 psi though as Ford suggests. It will be far more stable to allow the front tires to slip more in emergency situations and at 80 psi, cornering stiffness wont allow that. Running 80 on all fours makes you susceptible to jackknifing in an emergency. You will have no way of knowing that running 80 psi all around is not stable until it is too late, so if you have questions about this advise ask.
Thanks for the input! I didn't consider the front tires being an issue, but makes sense. I now have 104K miles and am on my 3rd set of Michelins. I run the Endurance on the AS at 57psi cold, and they do get up to 75+ during travel, but no issues anymore with rivets or hinges since I been running these at lower PSI.

I just replaced all 4 Endurance last week as I noticed couple wear marks down to the warning line in a few places. (this is my second set of Endurance, now at 48K miles) Could have gone a few more short trips but I did not like seeing those areas so close to having no tread in few places. All I can figure, is brakes may have been locking on front wheels a few times? When wheels removed and on jacks last week, I spun each wheel and did not notice any issues, so I will keep an eye on them going forward.
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Old 12-18-2020, 09:29 AM   #86
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You may want to add 3 psi to the trailer, you want to try to keep them to about 12% increase in pressure max plus an additional 2% for each 10 degrees ambient has risen since the the tires were cold. Also if the sun is strong and shining on the tires while driving, all bets are off, you can't accurately asses those tires.

So if ambient has risen 20 degrees and you started at 57psi, then 66 is the ideal max for the trailer. If they instead are 70 hot, then add 3 psi while hot and drive on, now the ideal is 69. If they drop to 72 after 45 min or so, add 2 more psi, the new max hot is 71, and so on....

On the uneven wear, I'd say the fronts had more load so the trailer is likely slightly low in front. The extra wear on the fronts likely caused them to go slightly out of balance so they also wore uneven. If you can't change the geometry because it is a Level as you can make it, at least balance the trailer wheels every 8-10k.
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Old 12-19-2020, 11:16 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
You may want to add 3 psi to the trailer, you want to try to keep them to about 12% increase in pressure max plus an additional 2% for each 10 degrees ambient has risen since the the tires were cold. Also if the sun is strong and shining on the tires while driving, all bets are off, you can't accurately asses those tires.

So if ambient has risen 20 degrees and you started at 57psi, then 66 is the ideal max for the trailer. If they instead are 70 hot, then add 3 psi while hot and drive on, now the ideal is 69. If they drop to 72 after 45 min or so, add 2 more psi, the new max hot is 71, and so on....

On the uneven wear, I'd say the fronts had more load so the trailer is likely slightly low in front. The extra wear on the fronts likely caused them to go slightly out of balance so they also wore uneven. If you can't change the geometry because it is a Level as you can make it, at least balance the trailer wheels every 8-10k.
How about Centramatics? They will keep the wheels in balance through changing conditions (tire wear, mud caked on tires, etc).
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Old 12-19-2020, 04:35 PM   #88
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They do a great job over 45 mph according to all the info and reviews I have read. I should probably get some.....
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Old 03-24-2021, 01:24 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David in Lex View Post
Technical question directed to those who insist that a properly equipped F-150 is inadequate for towing an AS 30:

With truck and trailer fully loaded for travel, if CAT scales say my TV axles are both below Ford's GAWR (front is 6% under, rear is 15% under) and the combined axle weight of truck and trailer is 13,640 (GCWR per Ford is 18,100), is it still necessary to worry about tongue weight and truck payload. Am I missing something here? Thanks.
Isn't the tongue weight a direct reduction of payload? IE if you have a 1500 pound payload rating, and a 1000# tongue weight you are limited to 500 of additional payload. Or am I misunderstanding the math?

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Old 03-24-2021, 01:58 PM   #90
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Isn't the tongue weight a direct reduction of payload? IE if you have a 1500 pound payload rating, and a 1000# tongue weight you are limited to 500 of additional payload. Or am I misunderstanding the math?

jc
JC, there might be a slight misunderstanding. Remember that payload leverages around the center of support near your wheels. Depending on how far forward or back from the wheels, like a teeter-totter or a wheelbarrow, weight is either added or subtracted from your tongue weight. The distance from the wheels progressively shifts more weight onto or off of your tongue. So, if you put the weight halfway between the wheels and the hitch ball, only half of that weight would be added to the tongue weight. Put it all over the tongue, like fully filled propane tanks, and almost all that weight will be added to the tongue weight.

Like a teeter-totter, if you put most of the weight over the pivot point, the weight doesn't add much to the force you need to lift either end of the teeter-totter. Balance equal weights at the ends of the teeter-totter, and you also don't add much weight to the ends of the teeter-totter. Put that weight far from the pivot point, and you'll have to lift most or all of that weight (like tongue weight on a trailer, or how much you have to heft on a poorly loaded wheelbarrow).

The trailer is limited to approximately carrying 1500 lbs. as cargo by what its springs can suspend without bottoming and by the total weight of the trailer and its cargo that the brakes are designed stop. You can't think of it as tongue weight plus cargo weight or as tongue weight minus cargo weight. You have to respect both limits or your tow vehicle can be overwhelmed, risking potential jackknifing or rollover.

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Old 03-24-2021, 03:53 PM   #91
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JC, there might be a slight misunderstanding. Remember that payload leverages around the center of support near your wheels. Depending on how far forward or back from the wheels, like a teeter-totter or a wheelbarrow, weight is either added or subtracted from your tongue weight. The distance from the wheels progressively shifts more weight onto or off of your tongue. So, if you put the weight halfway between the wheels and the hitch ball, only half of that weight would be added to the tongue weight. Put it all over the tongue, like fully filled propane tanks, and almost all that weight will be added to the tongue weight.

Like a teeter-totter, if you put most of the weight over the pivot point, the weight doesn't add much to the force you need to lift either end of the teeter-totter. Balance equal weights at the ends of the teeter-totter, and you also don't add much weight to the ends of the teeter-totter. Put that weight far from the pivot point, and you'll have to lift most or all of that weight (like tongue weight on a trailer, or how much you have to heft on a poorly loaded wheelbarrow).

The trailer is limited to approximately carrying 1500 lbs. as cargo by what its springs can suspend without bottoming and by the total weight of the trailer and its cargo that the brakes are designed stop. You can't think of it as tongue weight plus cargo weight or as tongue weight minus cargo weight. You have to respect both limits or your tow vehicle can be overwhelmed, risking potential jackknifing or rollover.

Scott
Ok, shifting weight in the trailer will obviously affect the amount of weight that is added to the tongue weight. IE if I put all of the cargo in the front of the trailer it will increase the tongue weight. So, let me simplify my question.

If there is nothing in the trailer and it has an airstream specified tongue weight, such as looking at the Airstream specs. So, an International 25FB has a hitch weight of 837 pounds on a 2021 model. The Tow Vehicle truck has a payload of 1500 pounds. For the truck to not be overloaded would you not deduct the 837 pounds from the 1500 pounds which would leave 663 pounds of cargo beyond driver and full tank of gas. If a person put 1000 pounds of gear and people in the truck, are they over their trucks payload rating limit?

I have been told that this is a critical calculation and the one that often gets people into trouble. I am just trying to verify that I understand that this is true or not?

thanks!

jc
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Old 03-24-2021, 04:20 PM   #92
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Your best bet is to use a scale to weigh the tongue of your trailer when it's loaded for camping. I use a Sherline scale for this purpose. When I do my weight and balance calculations, I always subtract that amount from the specific payload for my truck.
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Old 03-24-2021, 04:40 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by xpcdoojk View Post
Ok, shifting weight in the trailer will obviously affect the amount of weight that is added to the tongue weight. IE if I put all of the cargo in the front of the trailer it will increase the tongue weight. So, let me simplify my question.

If there is nothing in the trailer and it has an airstream specified tongue weight, such as looking at the Airstream specs. So, an International 25FB has a hitch weight of 837 pounds on a 2021 model. The Tow Vehicle truck has a payload of 1500 pounds. For the truck to not be overloaded would you not deduct the 837 pounds from the 1500 pounds which would leave 663 pounds of cargo beyond driver and full tank of gas. If a person put 1000 pounds of gear and people in the truck, are they over their trucks payload rating limit?

I have been told that this is a critical calculation and the one that often gets people into trouble. I am just trying to verify that I understand that this is true or not?

thanks!

jc
Don’t confuse payload with tongue weight either. Your truck will have a max tongue weight with and without a load distribution hitch. That limit has to be respected as well as gawr gvwr and combined gvwr. The trailer also has a gawr and gvwr. Too little and too much tongue weight could lead to trouble as well as to much rear gawr too little front gawr as well as the opposite.
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Old 03-24-2021, 08:17 PM   #94
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Sigh....

I am not confusing the two. The Hitch Weight as it is referred to in Airstreams specs. Is a specific number, I know it can be affected both heavier and lighter by how the trailer is loaded. More weight to the back, and the teeter totter lifts up at the hitch. More weight to the front of the trailer and the teeter totter lowers at the hitch.

Is the payload of the TRUCK directly accountable to the weight on the hitch? IE is it a direct relationship to the payload the weight of the hitch. I have been told it is.

So back to my simple example if the payload of the TV is 1500 and you have an 837 pound hitch weight is the payload not including the driver and a full tank of gas equal to or greater than 663 pounds?

If so, why and if not why?

JC
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Old 03-24-2021, 08:25 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpcdoojk View Post
Sigh....



I am not confusing the two. The Hitch Weight as it is referred to in Airstreams specs. Is a specific number, I know it can be affected both heavier and lighter by how the trailer is loaded. More weight to the back, and the teeter totter lifts up at the hitch. More weight to the front of the trailer and the teeter totter lowers at the hitch.



Is the payload of the TRUCK directly accountable to the weight on the hitch? IE is it a direct relationship to the payload the weight of the hitch. I have been told it is.



So back to my simple example if the payload of the TV is 1500 and you have an 837 pound hitch weight is the payload not including the driver and a full tank of gas equal to or greater than 663 pounds?



If so, why and if not why?



JC


In simple math you are correct and it’s the way I figure it. I realize that technically once you apply weight distribution you could be off loading some but I don’t think that way, I look at what if any is off loaded adds to my safety cushion.

The only way to know for sure is as others have said is to go to the scales. And I would add 100lbs minimum to the published Airstream spec.
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Old 03-24-2021, 10:09 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpcdoojk View Post
Sigh....

I am not confusing the two. The Hitch Weight as it is referred to in Airstreams specs. Is a specific number, I know it can be affected both heavier and lighter by how the trailer is loaded. More weight to the back, and the teeter totter lifts up at the hitch. More weight to the front of the trailer and the teeter totter lowers at the hitch.

Is the payload of the TRUCK directly accountable to the weight on the hitch? IE is it a direct relationship to the payload the weight of the hitch. I have been told it is.

So back to my simple example if the payload of the TV is 1500 and you have an 837 pound hitch weight is the payload not including the driver and a full tank of gas equal to or greater than 663 pounds?

If so, why and if not why?

JC
Correct.

Your payload limit is calculated by subtracting the weight of your truck from the GVWR of your truck. Trucks with more options are heavier than those with fewer options, and therefore they have a lower payload limit. A weight distribution hitch distributes some of the weight from your rear axle to your front axle. This helps with control, steering, and braking. However, it doesn’t increase your payload limit. That limit is calculated without any consideration for where or how the weight is loaded.

The weight on your hitch contributes directly to your payload limit.
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Old 03-25-2021, 08:35 AM   #97
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Thanks JonDNC and Dennis C.

I am not an expert, but I like to understand the real math, and not just fall back on people’s beliefs and biases.

I am good at math, and I like to believe if I do the math correctly then I will get a binary result as to whether I am below the limits of my TV and Trailer.

I like Yes and No answers better than, maybe, and in some cases or could be.


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Old 03-25-2021, 09:53 AM   #98
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You need good data to do the math.

The tongue weight of the trailer subtracts directly from the payload of the truck. The amount of weight the WD hitch transfers back to the trailer wheels adds back to the available payload of the truck. That number varies with the setup of the hitch but typically is 100 lbs to 150 lbs. I do not know the tongue weight of my trailer and have no interest in it. I do know that hitched the trailer and bars add 800 lbs to the load on the truck.

You may be really good with math (or not) but honestly most of us here can add and subtract if we use a calculator and it is a pretty simple math problem. Some even have a spread sheet for it.

Me not so much. I think I have plenty of payload and we do not carry an awful lot of heavy stuff. Never really checked against the payload. I know I am well under the axle limits though since that is shown direct on a read out from the CAT scale.
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:12 PM   #99
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Not rocket science, is it? Weigh your Airstream at the scales, loaded. Truck/TV on one scale, AS wheels on the other. Then pull forward, unhitch the tongue on the scale, and weigh again, without the TV on the scale. That will give you pretty good actual weights of your entire set up. Our "actual" tongue weight (1100lbs) is 150lbs over the AS spec... deduct all your cargo & passengers along with the tongue weight from "actual" payload on the drivers doorjamb....don't go by the specs; use actual numbers if you want to be "somewhat" accurate.
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:27 PM   #100
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We are towing a 2004 International 25 with a 2013 F-150 FX4 max tow you should not have any problem since your specs are similar - with a good weight distribution/sway control you should be good to go as far as payload as well you can check out my research for truck and trailer at how-to-determine-if-your-tow-vehicle-is-right-for-your-trailer
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