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12-13-2020, 12:31 PM
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#61
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Rivet Master
2015 20' Flying Cloud
Kingsport
, Tennessee
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,277
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So, let's say, a 1500 Sierra, rated at towing 9800lbs and 1500lb payload, but the AS is a 20' Bambi, instead of something over 25'.... and it has a properly adjusted BlueOx SwayPro. Not discounting the ProPride, I understand how it works, and works well, but, wouldn't it possibly be overkill? If you were pulling a 25' w/ a 1500, then the ProPride might make that possible. Bigger than a 25, go w/ a 2500. But for a Bambi??
__________________
-Leslie
WBCCI #1051
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12-13-2020, 12:35 PM
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#62
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Rivet Master
2013 27' FB International
El Dorado Hills
, California
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,023
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I weighed my brand new F150 at a CAT scale shortly after purchase, me standing outside. Turns out the weight of the truck, plus its yellow sticker payload rating exactly equaled the trucks 7,000 lb GVRW.
The sum of the two axle ratings (GAWR) adds to 7,320 lbs.
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12-13-2020, 12:47 PM
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#63
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David in Lex
Obviously I don't know what Ford's engineers think about this question. And I never said that ONLY axle ratings are important. What I have been trying to do is to find out whether staying below the TV's front and rear GAWR's is sufficient to address concerns about payload and hitch weight. My thinking is that as long as the axles aren't overloaded that should be enough. But I know I could be wrong about that, so that's why I was hoping to learn more from people on this forum who know more than I do. I wasn't expecting sarcasm and don't see what I did to provoke that. I'm not trying to argue about 1/2 ton versus 3/4 ton TV's. I'm trying to learn something.
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GAWRs are a good limit to respect. I would add tire ratings to that, but it will usually only be a limiting factor if you have changed tires to ones with different load ratings.
I would add the strength of the receiver to the list. If the receiver is able to transmit the applied WD forces, eg to restore front axle loads, then that is a good sign. Sometimes, tow ratings can be reduced by a manufacturer below the vehicle capability because of the limitations of the installed hitch receiver.
If you are within the above ratings, and the combination is set up properly, and handles well, then I wouldn't worry.
If you are a commercial carrier, subject to DOT regulations, then I would also consider GVWR, as it is an enforced rating for purposes of licensing (both operator and vehicle).
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12-13-2020, 12:57 PM
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#64
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo
Without knowing all of the other things the engineers considered when setting the payload rating, I think it is more appropriate for you to explain why you think ONLY the axle ratings are important. Please list all of the other things the engineers considered and why you think they are unimportant.
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This isn't necessarily a complete list, but it is the obvious item. Published payload is constrained by the possible locations to carry that cargo. The manufacturer assumes you are putting the load in the place they designed for that purpose. It isn't an unreasonable assumption. Let's use a pickup truck for example. If you have a concentrated load to carry, you will (should) locate it fore and aft between the TV axles. Right up against the cab would be a good start. And centred, not offset to one side. Sometimes people will put a heavy load on the tailgate, or more on one side of the vehicle. The manufacturer can't control any of this. So payload is set based on a number of assumptions. They add that payload target to the vehicle base weight to get the GVWR.
But if you are using WD equipment, and can shift the effects of the load front and rear (not the load, but the effects of that load on the tow vehicle) then payload as a concept just isn't as relevant. It isn't unlimited, and one should only go to what the vehicle was designed to carry on each axle. And that is defined by the GAWR.
Some think of the GVWR as the safe design limit for fore and aft loads (accelerating, stopping) beyond the axle vertical loads, but this ignores that the manufacturer endorses pulling trailers (which adds to those fore and aft loads) and in fact endorses pulling trailers without brakes up to a certain trailer load. The vehicle is obviously designed with those uses in mind.
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12-13-2020, 01:01 PM
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#65
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherzi
I weighed my brand new F150 at a CAT scale shortly after purchase, me standing outside. Turns out the weight of the truck, plus its yellow sticker payload rating exactly equaled the trucks 7,000 lb GVRW.
The sum of the two axle ratings (GAWR) adds to 7,320 lbs.
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Because the manufacturer didn't know where you were going to put the load in the truck box, so covered a range of possibilities
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12-13-2020, 08:21 PM
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#66
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David in Lex
Thank you for your insight about 'cherry picking.' Now, can you or someone else please explain to me why, if the front and rear axles are below our F-150's GAWR for each axle when loaded and hitched, this by itself is not enough to satisfy concerns about tongue weight and payload. (And, again, total axle weight for truck and trailer were 13,640 last time we weighed. The truck's GCWR is 18,100, so we were not overweight on that parameter either.) I am actually serious about wanting to know the answer to this question.
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It is not sufficient because the axle limits are generally based on structural capacity (axle, tires, suspension components) and suspension performance characteristics. Tongue weight limits are generally based on sway and cornering stability. Thus satisfying one criterion is no guarantee of satisfying the other.
Quote:
And, by the way, we use the ProPride hitch to pull our AS 30. It works great. In fact, I can't imagine using anything else (except a Hensley). It occurs to me that this is like the people who insist that only a 3/4 or bigger TV is adequate to tow a big AS. Plenty of people swear by other hitches, just as there are plenty of people who are fully satisfied with their 1/2 ton TVs.
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Sure the Propride Hitch will cover a multitude of weight limit excursions as long as you don't happen to get the trailer in an excessive yaw situation. With a propride, exceeding tongue limit and payload guidance is much lower risk than if you had a less capable hitch. If you're okay with the risk, fine, just know you are at some risk.
As far as people towing near or over limits who are "satisfied" that is true, but most of those people don't have any real understanding about the risk they are assuming.
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12-13-2020, 08:40 PM
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#67
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
I would add the strength of the receiver to the list. If the receiver is able to transmit the applied WD forces, eg to restore front axle loads, then that is a good sign. Sometimes, tow ratings can be reduced by a manufacturer below the vehicle capability because of the limitations of the installed hitch receiver.
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Best engineering practice is to match auxiliary components to the lowest overall capability. Thus it is poor practice to fit a receiver that is more capable than the vehicle. It should cause one to pause when they realize the manufacturer has fitted a weak receiver and avoid the temptation to shore it up.
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12-14-2020, 06:08 AM
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#68
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3 Rivet Member
2021 25' Globetrotter
Cleveland
, Ohio
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOhBee
This guy did his homework and pulls an FC30 with a properly equipped F-150: . He had to special order his truck to get what he needed.
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Max tow and HD towing package is basically a super duty with independent front suspension and a small motor.
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12-14-2020, 07:03 AM
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#69
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Rivet Master
2019 27' International
Western NC
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewk
Max tow and HD towing package is basically a super duty with independent front suspension and a small motor.
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And a lighter frame, axles, transmission etc.
__________________
2023 Van Leigh Vilano 320GK
2019 International Serenity 27 FBQ “TC Escape” SOLD
2019 Ford F-350 Platinum
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12-14-2020, 08:01 AM
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#70
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker
Best engineering practice is to match auxiliary components to the lowest overall capability. Thus it is poor practice to fit a receiver that is more capable than the vehicle. It should cause one to pause when they realize the manufacturer has fitted a weak receiver and avoid the temptation to shore it up.
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Which in no way discounts upgrading a poorly executed item on a very capable TV.
Bob
🇺🇸
Case in point...
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
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12-14-2020, 08:09 AM
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#71
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Rivet Master
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer)
, Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,621
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This guy did his homework? So did this guy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewk
Max tow and HD towing package is basically a super duty with independent front suspension and a small motor.
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Again, here is a good read on pulling a 30' AS with F150 experience, in case you missed this post earlier? I would also add that being at your load limits with your TV is like playing roulette...the "what if" factor is not something I want to worry about with my TV; just driving on the interstate at 65-70mph towing an AS is challenging enough for most of us. I note the "White Knuckle" experience the OP mentions is real...
https://www.trucks.com/2019/06/14/to...-math-problem/
No disrespect intended.
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road! 2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
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12-14-2020, 08:43 AM
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#72
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Which in no way discounts upgrading a poorly executed item on a very capable TV.
Bob
🇺🇸
Case in point...
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Exactly. Some would have us believe that the manufacturers install lighter, less capable receivers not to save money, but to provide a limiter to prevent utilizing the towing capacity of a vehicle.
It is like assuming that vehicles that are supplied with summer tires are that way so that owners won't drive in winter conditions, even if owners upgrade the tires to more appropriate ones.
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12-14-2020, 09:18 AM
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#73
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Rivet Master
2023 27' Globetrotter
Winder
, Georgia
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDNC
And a lighter frame, axles, transmission etc.
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Late model F150’s can have same 10. Spd torque shift transmission as the Super Duties. (Standard on Eco boost with max tow)
Also same aluminum frame. Only the suspension and axles are different
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12-14-2020, 11:03 AM
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#74
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Rivet Master
2019 27' International
Western NC
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcc75
Late model F150’s can have same 10. Spd torque shift transmission as the Super Duties. (Standard on Eco boost with max tow)
Also same aluminum frame. Only the suspension and axles are different
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Super duty frames are steel, don’t know about 150.
From Ford.com
FULLY BOXED HIGH-STRENGTH STEEL FRAME
The fully boxed frame, built of percent high-strength steel with up to 10 crossmembers, is 24 times stiffer than the previous design. The frame is designed to minimize flexing and twisting while maximizing strength and torsional rigidity, and serves as the foundation for Super Duty[emoji768] achieving the highest payload and tow ratings in its class.*
*Max.payload rating of 7,850 lbs. available on F-350, Regular Cab 4x2, 6.2L gas. Max available gooseneck tow rating on F-450, Regular Cab, 4x2. Class is Full-Size Pickups
__________________
2023 Van Leigh Vilano 320GK
2019 International Serenity 27 FBQ “TC Escape” SOLD
2019 Ford F-350 Platinum
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12-14-2020, 11:30 AM
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#75
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Rivet Master
2023 27' Globetrotter
Winder
, Georgia
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 517
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My mistake. Actually it is an aluminum alloy body over a steel frame on ALL F SEREIS. In 2017 Ford went to the the aluminum body on Super Duties to match the F150’s.
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12-14-2020, 12:38 PM
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#76
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Rivet Master
2019 27' International
Western NC
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcc75
My mistake. Actually it is an aluminum alloy body over a steel frame on ALL F SEREIS. In 2017 Ford went to the the aluminum body on Super Duties to match the F150’s.
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Yup, but not the same size chassis. Cab is the same though or was in 2019. Beds are longer. Wheelbase is longer etc. my point is you can’t make a 150 a 250.
__________________
2023 Van Leigh Vilano 320GK
2019 International Serenity 27 FBQ “TC Escape” SOLD
2019 Ford F-350 Platinum
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12-14-2020, 01:25 PM
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#77
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcc75
Late model F150’s can have same 10. Spd torque shift transmission as the Super Duties. (Standard on Eco boost with max tow)
Also same aluminum frame. Only the suspension and axles are different
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Different transmissions, 10R80 vs 10R140. Both have 10 speeds, but they aren’t based off each other.
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12-14-2020, 01:26 PM
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#78
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
Exactly. Some would have us believe that the manufacturers install lighter, less capable receivers not to save money, but to provide a limiter to prevent utilizing the towing capacity of a vehicle.
It is like assuming that vehicles that are supplied with summer tires are that way so that owners won't drive in winter conditions, even if owners upgrade the tires to more appropriate ones.
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Assuming an alternate rationale is much more of a stretch. When the vehicle tow limit is advertised at 6500 and the hitch design limit is 6500 and the stability math suggests 6500 and reports from owners confirm onset of issues near 6500 on steep winding downgrades at higher speeds, one can safely conclude 6500 may well be a good upper limit.
On the other hand, as Bob indicates, sometimes a hitch advertised as near or at Class IV equivalent is not up to par, and several experience weld failure. When this happens, an upgrade is in order.
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12-16-2020, 02:10 PM
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#79
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2 Rivet Member
2020 30' Flying Cloud
Lexington
, Virginia
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad
Again, here is a good read on pulling a 30' AS with F150 experience, in case you missed this post earlier? I would also add that being at your load limits with your TV is like playing roulette...the "what if" factor is not something I want to worry about with my TV; just driving on the interstate at 65-70mph towing an AS is challenging enough for most of us. I note the "White Knuckle" experience the OP mentions is real...
https://www.trucks.com/2019/06/14/to...-math-problem/
No disrespect intended.
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Gypsydad, thanks for pointing me to the Math Problem post. I'd read it a while ago but just read it again. As I've said, we've had no problems with our F-150 pulling our AS 30 over thousands of miles in a wide range of conditions. Math Problem person's experience was obviously very different, but our F-150 is quite different from hers. We have the EcoBoost, which is necessary for max towing capability per Ford. We have the Max Towing Package; she doesn't refer to that. Ours is the XLT, which is significantly lighter than her Lariat and therefore has greater payload capacity. Our 10-speed transmission has a Tow Mode option. Hers apparently doesn't (?) or she chose not to use it; I find it very helpful, especially when descending steep grades. And we have a ProPride hitch with properly set WD. Probably most important is that we are very careful not to overload. Our total weight on our most recent trip was 13,640 (vs GVWR of 18,100); she was at 15,490 (vs GVWR of 16,100). All of this is not to argue with the Math Problem person or with those who prefer F-250's to F-150's. I'm only suggesting that there's more to it than simply the choice of a F-150 versus something bigger. It also depends on how the F-150 is configured, how heavily truck and trailer are loaded, the choice of hitch, and WD set-up.
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12-17-2020, 09:37 AM
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#80
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David in Lex
Gypsydad, thanks for pointing me to the Math Problem post. I'd read it a while ago but just read it again. As I've said, we've had no problems with our F-150 pulling our AS 30 over thousands of miles in a wide range of conditions. Math Problem person's experience was obviously very different, but our F-150 is quite different from hers. We have the EcoBoost, which is necessary for max towing capability per Ford. We have the Max Towing Package; she doesn't refer to that. Ours is the XLT, which is significantly lighter than her Lariat and therefore has greater payload capacity. Our 10-speed transmission has a Tow Mode option. Hers apparently doesn't (?) or she chose not to use it; I find it very helpful, especially when descending steep grades. And we have a ProPride hitch with properly set WD. Probably most important is that we are very careful not to overload. Our total weight on our most recent trip was 13,640 (vs GVWR of 18,100); she was at 15,490 (vs GVWR of 16,100). All of this is not to argue with the Math Problem person or with those who prefer F-250's to F-150's. I'm only suggesting that there's more to it than simply the choice of a F-150 versus something bigger. It also depends on how the F-150 is configured, how heavily truck and trailer are loaded, the choice of hitch, and WD set-up.
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Do you mean “GCWR” and not “GVWR”? Big difference. GVWR is the weight of the loaded truck, hitched up to the trailer. GCWR is the combined weight of the trailer and truck, all loaded up.
Add up the “steer” and “drive” axle numbers from the cat scale sheet and compare that to the GVWR as stated in the sticker inside the door jamb. Also compare those values against the GAWR values in the same sticker. You’ll run afoul of those numbers probably long before you get close to the GCWR number.
My F350 has a GVWR of 11,500.😀
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