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Old 12-11-2020, 08:38 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
If the truck is loaded within spec limits, 7000lbs and the trailer is loaded within specs, 7000-7500, making the total combined gross weight well under spec limits, why do "people" continue to say the axles or transmission or suspension or brakes are over worked/loaded and prone to early failure?

Getting in to this discussion late, sorry if I repeat earlier statements. This is absolutely correct, in my opinion. You will get flamed by the one ton crowd every time you say you are towing safely with a half ton. The real problem lies in overloading your wimpy TV. By they way, I tow my 25FB with a Tundra....shudder....and with over 50K miles it has worked very well for me. The issue is payload and not GCVW. My TW is right at 950 so with a payload of 1650, I don't have much leeway in what I can bring along. "Loaded within spec limits" is where most go haywire. I travel light but I don't weight every single thing that goes in the bed. I have, though, on a few occasions weighed my setup while on a trip. I am interested in weight distribution and axle loads. No problems. An important issue beyond the weights you mention is a good WD/anti sway hitch.



The OP specifically said that he would use his TV for a daily driver. An F350 diesel would make a great TV for sure but.....
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Old 12-11-2020, 09:28 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
That wreck wasnít due to the wrong TV. Iíve towed much heavier stuff than that with a half ton Suburban without issue. There was something wrong with the setup.

A 30 foot trailer will take a 2500 or 3500 with it if it rolls.
I tend to agree. Having read the post, the OP said something to the effect that the front wheels were loaded heavier than the rear. Not sure I completely understand what was meant, but itís possible to remove too much weight from the rear wheels which could lead to oversteer. Or if the trailer wasnít loaded properly....

There is sway that damps out and thereís sway that oscillates out of control.
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Old 12-11-2020, 09:44 AM   #43
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Our 2013 F-150 FX4 Off Road Max Tow with WD 1800lb payload 3.5 ecoboost KO2 tires on 20" rims been everywhere over hill over dale over all the rut fill trails hauling a 2004 International 25 CCD - no problems love my setup.
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Old 12-11-2020, 10:22 AM   #44
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Technical question directed to those who insist that a properly equipped F-150 is inadequate for towing an AS 30:

With truck and trailer fully loaded for travel, if CAT scales say my TV axles are both below Ford's GAWR (front is 6% under, rear is 15% under) and the combined axle weight of truck and trailer is 13,640 (GCWR per Ford is 18,100), is it still necessary to worry about tongue weight and truck payload. Am I missing something here? Thanks.
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Old 12-11-2020, 12:01 PM   #45
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I tend to agree. Having read the post, the OP said something to the effect that the front wheels were loaded heavier than the rear. Not sure I completely understand what was meant, but itís possible to remove too much weight from the rear wheels which could lead to oversteer. Or if the trailer wasnít loaded properly....

There is sway that damps out and thereís sway that oscillates out of control.
I noted he said he was going 60mph entering the FW and the semi was already going 80mph and the wind whipped his AS so as to cause the roll. I would think there was a bit of "wagging" before the roll for sure.

I know when I had my F150 and was going 65mph with my 25'AS while changing lanes to the right, a sports car who was behind me decided to accelerate and pass on my right side...when I looked it was safe; wife screamed a second later during my lane change. I caught a glimpse in my mirror and whipped back to the left which started a quick bit of sway. The whole rig straightened out in the center dirt section of the highway, coasting to a stop, with both of us shaken. My feeling is the Ford anti sway along with the BO sway control did what it's supposed to do...stopped the sway and prevented a worse outcome. Many of us have felt the effects of a large semi from time to time that evokes a much stronger wind vortex then most semi's for what ever reason. Aerodynamics of the semi rig, excessive gust of wind, what ever. I just know I feel much more stable and confident with my 3/4T towing then I did with my 1/2T or my previous Tahoe's. Again, no disrespect intended...
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Old 12-11-2020, 02:46 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by David in Lex View Post
Technical question directed to those who insist that a properly equipped F-150 is inadequate for towing an AS 30:

With truck and trailer fully loaded for travel, if CAT scales say my TV axles are both below Ford's GAWR (front is 6% under, rear is 15% under) and the combined axle weight of truck and trailer is 13,640 (GCWR per Ford is 18,100), is it still necessary to worry about tongue weight and truck payload. Am I missing something here? Thanks.
All ears on this myself...I donít get it either. Iím not arguing anyoneís experiences or personal preferences, nor am I arguing manuf. specs. But why publish such a high GCWR and GAWRís if all of that is negated by payload capacity that in turn is essentially depleted by hitch weight?
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Old 12-11-2020, 03:01 PM   #47
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All ears on this myself...I don’t get it either. I’m not arguing anyone’s experiences or personal preferences, nor am I arguing manuf. specs. But why publish such a high GCWR and GAWR’s if all of that is negated by payload capacity that in turn is essentially depleted by hitch weight?
Not sure if you saw this article listed in earlier post? “I would not recommend pulling a 30-foot trailer or above with anything less than a 3/4-ton-level truck from any brand,” the conclusion of the author, listed as an expert and Airstream Ambasador. There are several other Youtubes and articles if you want to go deeper on internet...this is but one. Really depends on what you want to adopt for towing.

https://www.trucks.com/2019/06/14/to...-math-problem/
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Old 12-11-2020, 03:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by David in Lex View Post
Technical question directed to those who insist that a properly equipped F-150 is inadequate for towing an AS 30:

With truck and trailer fully loaded for travel, if CAT scales say my TV axles are both below Ford's GAWR (front is 6% under, rear is 15% under) and the combined axle weight of truck and trailer is 13,640 (GCWR per Ford is 18,100), is it still necessary to worry about tongue weight and truck payload. Am I missing something here? Thanks.
There are some that will say if youíre under both GAWRís youíre fine. I guess thereís some merit to that. There are quite a few that pull 30í AS with Tundras, other 1/2 tons and SUVís....and do fine. But thatís just not me. When we upgraded to a 28í AS we went with an F350 diesel. Is that the right thing for everyone? I doubt it. But itís certainly right for us.

If I were pulling a 30í AS with a 1/2 ton, Iíd get a Hensley or PropPride hitch and be sparing on what I loaded in the truck. At some point it boils down to judgement and driving style.
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Old 12-11-2020, 03:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
I noted he said he was going 60mph entering the FW and the semi was already going 80mph and the wind whipped his AS so as to cause the roll. I would think there was a bit of "wagging" before the roll for sure.

I know when I had my F150 and was going 65mph with my 25'AS while changing lanes to the right, a sports car who was behind me decided to accelerate and pass on my right side...when I looked it was safe; wife screamed a second later during my lane change. I caught a glimpse in my mirror and whipped back to the left which started a quick bit of sway. The whole rig straightened out in the center dirt section of the highway, coasting to a stop, with both of us shaken. My feeling is the Ford anti sway along with the BO sway control did what it's supposed to do...stopped the sway and prevented a worse outcome. Many of us have felt the effects of a large semi from time to time that evokes a much stronger wind vortex then most semi's for what ever reason. Aerodynamics of the semi rig, excessive gust of wind, what ever. I just know I feel much more stable and confident with my 3/4T towing then I did with my 1/2T or my previous Tahoe's. Again, no disrespect intended...
No problem gypsydad. Glad you came out of it ok. The sway control & all certainly help. However I bet you had your WD setup properly and trailer loaded properly as well.
Almost 30 years ago when I knew absolutely nothing about WD setup and trailer loading, I was towing a 23’ SOB with bikes loaded on the back. TV was a Chevy Blazer (the old one based on a short wheelbase 1/2 ton). When that thing started to sway caused by steering input going downhill, the oscillation INCREASED with each sway instead of decreased. Nobody was hurt. Trailer totaled and Blazer in the body shop for several weeks. I’m convinced that my setup was marginally stable to begin with and became unstable when I added the bikes.
When we decided to get back into it a few years ago, I gained a wealth of knowledge from this group.
Trailer needs to be properly loaded, WD properly set up, and TV plenty capable. That’s why we have an F350�� BTW we love that truck.
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Old 12-11-2020, 04:30 PM   #50
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Interesting to look at the pictures of the setup that you are talking about. In the picture before the incident you can clearly see that the hitch is not setup correctly. There is zero bend in the bars and way too many links are showing. This means that no weight is being transferred back to the front of the truck which is making the rear end sit lower. I would consider this a major factor in the accident.
.

More relevant than low Weight Distribution is the fact that the Blue Ox requires WD tension for its sway control. Thus the hitch, if poorly tensioned as indicated, was likely providing very little sway damping. If the trailer tongue was also a bit low and Suburban was lightly loaded or loaded so the heavy gear was closer to the rear and if the tire pressures were off a bit, that combination unfortunately would easily be unstable for sway at 50-60 mph.

But even under the best conditions, 1/2 trucks (NOT 1/2 tons in name only) and SUVs towing 7500-8000 are quite close to the natural undamped sway critical speed for typical highway conditions so something like this is possible even set up correctly if the impulse is strong enough to induce significant initial trailer yaw as was likely in this case. This is the primary reason I suggest heavier vehicles for 7500 and larger trailers.
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Old 12-11-2020, 04:56 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
If the truck is loaded within spec limits, 7000lbs and the trailer is loaded within specs, 7000-7500, making the total combined gross weight well under spec limits, why do "people" continue to say the axles or transmission or suspension or brakes are over worked/loaded and prone to early failure?
For most vehicles, GCWR is generally the sum of the base vehicle, a full tank of fuel and a 150 driver plus the max towing limit, so in your example combined limit won't be 18,000, it will be more like 16,800 or so. Still over your 14,500. Generally folks will point to equipment limits when the combination is closer to the limit or as others have already indicated, point to the payload as the issue. It's nearly impossible to pull a 7500 lb 1100 to 1200 lb tongue weight trailer with a 7000 lb GVWR vehicle with a few people, a dog and some stuff in it and stay under the 7000 lb limit, which does imply excessive loads on the rear components. I also note that for 1/2 tons in particular, the trailer used to determine max towing is not a travel trailer so the limit is 25-30% high out of the gate from a stability standpoint, particularly in wind events like the case in Wyoming with the semi. But if you can make it work, and you stay below all limits including especial tongue weight (this will force you to knock 30% off max) and payload with a 1/2 ton, I have no issue.

A further note to those who tow 28+ trailers with 1/2 tons: Of course your experience will be great if the trailer is loaded for max stability and the setup is correct. You won't ever realize your combination is at or over the stability limits and you will drive for 10s of thousands of miles with "no issue" unless you have the rare and unfortunate luck the those who describe having to handle a trailer that has gotten itself 2 1/2 or 3 degrees out of track due to a semi or unusual wind or sudden swerve. It will be at this time that you will know if your system is stable.
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Old 12-11-2020, 08:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by David in Lex View Post
Technical question directed to those who insist that a properly equipped F-150 is inadequate for towing an AS 30:

With truck and trailer fully loaded for travel, if CAT scales say my TV axles are both below Ford's GAWR (front is 6% under, rear is 15% under) and the combined axle weight of truck and trailer is 13,640 (GCWR per Ford is 18,100), is it still necessary to worry about tongue weight and truck payload. Am I missing something here? Thanks.
A lot of people cherry pick the ratings that they are under and ignore the ones they exceed. All without knowing why the engineers put that rating on the vehicle. Of course, they ARE under the cherry picked ratings, so all must be good. Until it isn't.
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Old 12-12-2020, 05:15 PM   #53
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A lot of people cherry pick the ratings that they are under and ignore the ones they exceed. All without knowing why the engineers put that rating on the vehicle. Of course, they ARE under the cherry picked ratings, so all must be good. Until it isn't.
Thank you for your insight about 'cherry picking.' Now, can you or someone else please explain to me why, if the front and rear axles are below our F-150's GAWR for each axle when loaded and hitched, this by itself is not enough to satisfy concerns about tongue weight and payload. (And, again, total axle weight for truck and trailer were 13,640 last time we weighed. The truck's GCWR is 18,100, so we were not overweight on that parameter either.) I am actually serious about wanting to know the answer to this question.

And, by the way, we use the ProPride hitch to pull our AS 30. It works great. In fact, I can't imagine using anything else (except a Hensley). It occurs to me that this is like the people who insist that only a 3/4 or bigger TV is adequate to tow a big AS. Plenty of people swear by other hitches, just as there are plenty of people who are fully satisfied with their 1/2 ton TVs.
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Old 12-12-2020, 06:13 PM   #54
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David in Lex:
Unfortunately some folks on this forum like to throw sarcasm around and criticize others without really backing it up with facts. And for whatever reason it happens mostly on the tow vehicle threads. Bayou Bikerís post above is pretty informative as most of his posts are and I respect his knowledge. But even that post doesnít directly answer the question as to why the GCWR on certain vehicles (primarily F150ís) can be so high but yet the relatively low payload rating be the determining factor as to whether the complete setup can be pushing the limits of safety even if you are well under the GCWR and GAWR ratings.
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Old 12-12-2020, 07:27 PM   #55
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Thank you for your insight about 'cherry picking.' Now, can you or someone else please explain to me why, if the front and rear axles are below our F-150's GAWR for each axle when loaded and hitched, this by itself is not enough to satisfy concerns about tongue weight and payload. (And, again, total axle weight for truck and trailer were 13,640 last time we weighed. The truck's GCWR is 18,100, so we were not overweight on that parameter either.) I am actually serious about wanting to know the answer to this question.

And, by the way, we use the ProPride hitch to pull our AS 30. It works great. In fact, I can't imagine using anything else (except a Hensley). It occurs to me that this is like the people who insist that only a 3/4 or bigger TV is adequate to tow a big AS. Plenty of people swear by other hitches, just as there are plenty of people who are fully satisfied with their 1/2 ton TVs.
Without knowing all of the other things the engineers considered when setting the payload rating, I think it is more appropriate for you to explain why you think ONLY the axle ratings are important. Please list all of the other things the engineers considered and why you think they are unimportant.
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Old 12-13-2020, 06:38 AM   #56
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Without knowing all of the other things the engineers considered when setting the payload rating, I think it is more appropriate for you to explain why you think ONLY the axle ratings are important. Please list all of the other things the engineers considered and why you think they are unimportant.
Maybe because 'payload' is just an educated guess, ratings are not.
Stay below tire, axle and GCWR ratings and you will not have a 'payload' concern.
Remember a proper lash-up is what's most important for safe towing, you can be well under all the 'numbers' and still end up in the ditch.

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Old 12-13-2020, 07:43 AM   #57
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Maybe because 'payload' is just an educated guess, ratings are not.
Stay below tire, axle and GCWR ratings and you will not have a 'payload' concern.
Remember a proper lash-up is what's most important for safe towing, you can be well under all the 'numbers' and still end up in the ditch.

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As good a generalized rationalization as any I could have come up with. You didn't name the other factors the engineers considered and tell why they are unimportant.
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Old 12-13-2020, 07:51 AM   #58
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As good a generalized rationalization as any I could have come up with. You didn't name the other factors the engineers considered and tell why they are unimportant.
Mostly, because they are...if folks don't consider OR understand engineered factors they quickly become moot.
Better to do well what you understand than do poorly what you don't.
Why don't you explain them for us dolts?

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Old 12-13-2020, 10:11 AM   #59
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Without knowing all of the other things the engineers considered when setting the payload rating, I think it is more appropriate for you to explain why you think ONLY the axle ratings are important. Please list all of the other things the engineers considered and why you think they are unimportant.
Obviously I don't know what Ford's engineers think about this question. And I never said that ONLY axle ratings are important. What I have been trying to do is to find out whether staying below the TV's front and rear GAWR's is sufficient to address concerns about payload and hitch weight. My thinking is that as long as the axles aren't overloaded that should be enough. But I know I could be wrong about that, so that's why I was hoping to learn more from people on this forum who know more than I do. I wasn't expecting sarcasm and don't see what I did to provoke that. I'm not trying to argue about 1/2 ton versus 3/4 ton TV's. I'm trying to learn something.
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Old 12-13-2020, 11:47 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by David in Lex View Post
Obviously I don't know what Ford's engineers think about this question. And I never said that ONLY axle ratings are important. What I have been trying to do is to find out whether staying below the TV's front and rear GAWR's is sufficient to address concerns about payload and hitch weight. My thinking is that as long as the axles aren't overloaded that should be enough. But I know I could be wrong about that, so that's why I was hoping to learn more from people on this forum who know more than I do. I wasn't expecting sarcasm and don't see what I did to provoke that. I'm not trying to argue about 1/2 ton versus 3/4 ton TV's. I'm trying to learn something.


My opinion - not an engineer - is that axle weight alone is not sufficient for the following reasons

Center of gravity
Suspension loading / design
Front vs rear inertia
Also individual axle capacity maybe over gvr
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