Help, we need DRY heat!

[mykytiukr]

Check out Espar or Webasto diesel fuel fired heaters. There is also a Russian manufactured one that has excellent reviews for about half the price. These are what is used in over-the-road trucks as sleeper heaters and also in marine applications. You will have to add another small fuel tank or what I am going to do is convert one of the propane tanks to fuel oil. These heaters will run cleaner and need very little service if any if you burn only a no. 1 fuel as in no. 1 heating fuel, kerosine, no. 1 diesel fuel or Jet-A aviation fuel. These fuels are virtually all the same thing. I know this because I’ve hauled them all and they all come from the same storage tank at the refinery. Only the tax is different. Motor On!!!

[james.mileur]

Originally Posted by 4riveteers

I would like to hear your opinion on the use of the "Reflectix" (silver bubble wrap) insulation material up against the interior windows. When we purchased our AS I took the time to custom cut to size the reflectix to fit snuggly against every window we have (and there's allot of them). We can feel an immediate improvement of "cold reduction". I think it is rated at "R1"? or a bit less. They stay put and are quick and easy to apply and remove. I noticed the few times we use them on cold nights the next morning there is a high amount of condensation against the glass. We general use full hookup.

You opinion on the concept of covering glass surfaces and this product please?
Is the comfort worth the condensation?

John & Stacy
Manteca, Ca.
4riveteers

We cut the same material for our Classic, worked great, especially down in the teens last winter. The condensation comes between the reflectix and glass if there is air flow. Tight seal (cut oversize) and pressed against the glass, around the entire perimeter will greatly reduce the moisture de-humidification against the glass. Anything that allows warm air to rise against the bare glass or cooled air to flow out of the "between" air space, will pull more air in and allow de-humidification against the cold glass. Think "water-laden air" convection flowing, colder air drops just due to density, moisture or not, and warm air rises, same reason. Stop the leaks, stop the flow, stop the de-humidification on the window glass.
The Classics have those valence boxes, so press fitting is a bit easier? Your window frame may still be deep enough to accomplish the same seal.

A LEED builder I just talked to said infiltration is more significant than insulation. Stop the flow, warm the space. All good. We use small electric ceramic space heaters to toast up.

[xrvr]

I thought sprinter vans had espar heaters in the past. So did any of tbe early AI have them.?

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by james.mileur

We cut the same material for our Classic, worked great, especially down in the teens last winter. The condensation comes between the reflectix and glass if there is air flow. Tight seal (cut oversize) and pressed against the glass, around the entire perimeter will greatly reduce the moisture de-humidification against the glass.

Do you remove the screen material each fall and replace it in the spring to get the tight fit of the Reflectix against the glass?

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by 4riveteers

Hello there "Mr." Protagonist.
Let me start with saying "We really enjoy reading your posts". We value them and your opinions highly, they always make clear and common sense. We have learned a lot from reading them, please continue supplying us all with your wealth of knowledge.

We have a 2016 27FB Flying Cloud. Our first Airstream. Love it and everything about it and the people we have met since we took delivery of it last year. We use it a couple of four day trips per month (I still have to work for a few more years before I retire and get out and do some "big trips".
We reside in California and spend a large amount of our outings on the west coast in Monterey (Sea level) and at Pinnicle's National Park just south of Hollister (elevation tops out around 1500 feet).

I would like to hear your opinion on the use of the "Reflectix" (silver bubble wrap) insulation material up against the interior windows. When we purchased our AS I took the time to custom cut to size the reflectix to fit snuggly against every window we have (and there's allot of them). We can feel an immediate improvement of "cold reduction". I think it is rated at "R1"? or a bit less. They stay put and are quick and easy to apply and remove. I noticed the few times we use them on cold nights the next morning there is a high amount of condensation against the glass. We general use full hookup. At night we typically run a small electric heater on low to brake the chill and tad of white noise to help drown out outside noises. We also use and set our furnace @ 60 degrees F. We don't like burning anything inside the living space, so catalytic combustion type heat is out of the question for us!

You opinion on the concept of covering glass surfaces and this product please?
Is the comfort worth the condensation?

John & Stacy
Manteca, Ca.
4riveteers

I have the reflectix coverings for all windows. Mostly to protect from sun fading while in long term storage. I have used it in cool weather and it helps. Doesn't help with condensation overall though.

[J. Morgan]

Get a 200 pound bottle of propane and run the furnace. That’s what I would do anyway....

[NoResults]

I was thinking Arizona this time of year would cure the problem. Dave

[lkm4321]

We have had good success by using the propane furnace, with temp set at 65 degrees and using a small fan to circulate the warm air. We also keep one of the vents cracked open about an inch at all times. If we do any cooking we run the vent fan. Not perfect but managable, however at Temps of mid-teens to low thirty's propane usage is about 30#s every 4 to 5 days.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by youngmg69

wondering about "no wood stove" comment? I am considering a wood stove in my 57' flying cloud remodel. Is it just the idea of feeding it constantly or something else? Just curios. thanks.

Nothing wrong per se.

Extended temps under 32F need the water tanks to be heated. Which is via the furnace ducting. Given RV park electric, for the same money the CheapHeat retrofit makes more sense than a wood stove.

And the comment above about using a 200-lb tank is the easiest overall solution to most TT winter comfort problems.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Jeffndaile

The real problem here is that AS’s have the very worst “recipe” for condensation of any RV out there. Attachment 300034
The condensation is a natural result of how they’re built.... cold metal on the outside, directly riveted to warm metal on the inside. Very bad combination.

The question is, why in tarnation, doesn’t AS use foam board to insulate these guys? Instead of the fluffy pink stuff that when it gets wet, which it definitely will, loses its ability to insulate?

I only wish Northern lite built travel trailers.....

Avion used spray on insulation...same problem as the asin the winter.....

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by NoResults

I was thinking Arizona this time of year would cure the problem. Dave

Probably would. We have not used heat or AC for a couple of months now in the house. The commercial buildings are still running the AC. Warmest winter I can remember.

[SilverSunny]

I use a Bonaire electric fireplace. It works extremely well in my 25ft LandYacht. It has a narrow profile, and can be wall mounted, or leave it on its stand.

[RandyNH]

While you probably have no floor space for a wood stove, maybe wall space isn't such a premium.

Dry heat

[Gearheart]

The furnace produces dry heat. It breathes outside air and exhausts combustion products outside. A catalytic heater burns inside air and combustion products CO2 CO and water stay inside the space. Electric heat is causing your power bill to go ballistic. Nothing new there. Electric heat is the most inefficient use of energy out there. It is necessary to run the furnace to protect the black, grey, and fresh water tanks from freezing. Heat is directed to the tanks by duct work for that very purpose. An electric dehumidifier is your best bet to deal with the moisture and a bonus is that it generates dry heat in the process.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

I use an electric dehumidifier to remove moisture from the air. And I use my OEM furnace instead of a catalytic heater (more about that later).

I also alter my normal routine in order to put less moisture into the air in the first place.

I avoid showering in the Airstream in the winter so I add less water to the air. A sponge bath gets me just as clean without getting the air as wet. And waterless hand sanitizer can be used all over your body if necessary (except your hair, which I don't have on my scalp anyway), so I use more sanitizer in the winter versus washing with soap and water. But using hand sanitizer doesn't leave you feeling as clean, so sponge baths are still required (besides, if you have a spouse, you can give each other sponge baths, which is a lot more fun than doing it yourself). And baby wipes aren't just for babies, either. Grownups can use them too.

Plus, when winter camping, I almost never use real plates and tableware, instead strictly disposable paper and plastic, so I seldom have to fill the galley sink or let dishes air-dry. When I cook on the stove, pots and pans are washed using as little water as possible, and towel-dried instead of air-drying.

I use the microwave more than I use the stove, so there's less steam from cooking, and what steam there is collects inside the microwave where it can be wiped up with a paper towel instead of going into the air.

For temperature management, I try to keep the inside air as cool as I can stand it. Cool enough to need a sweater indoors is just about right. If the difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures is small, there will be less condensation on the walls, windows, and ceiling than if there's a big difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures.

But even with all of these techniques for reducing condensation in the winter, a catalytic heater is a poor choice for winter heating in terms of condensation (it's later, so here's the promised "more about that"). Any propane burned inside your Airstream, in a catalytic heater or your stove, produces more than three quarts of water for every gallon of propane burned. Make no mistake, even though there's no flame in a catalytic heater, the propane is still burned in that it still combines with oxygen to produce combustion byproducts such as water vapor.

Since a typical RV catalytic heater burns 0.3 pounds of propane per hour of use, and propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, if the heater is on half the time, you'll use a gallon of propane a day, and put over 3 quarts of water vapor into the air.

A catalytic heater is a more efficient heater than a furnace, because the furnace wastes about 15% of the heat produced through the exhaust. But the furnace has a distinct advantage in that combustion takes place outside the living spaces, so zero moisture is added to the inside air by the furnace. (On edit— that's not necessarily dry heat, because the furnace also doesn't remove any moisture that already present.) Given my choice between wetness inside and lost heat outside, I'll take the lost heat outside.

But even if you go back to using the furnace instead of the catalytic heater, you can't get rid of moisture in their air completely, because just breathing puts plenty of water vapor into the air. Every person who breathes inside an Airstream adds nearly a pint (400ml, not a quart) of water vapor to the air every day. But a good-quality and properly-sized electric dehumidifier will generally take care of that much water vapor each day.

OOPs, you're correct...I was thinking quart for me and the missus.....fingers ahead of brain again. Thanks for the correction.

[Jeffndaile]

So, to put a cap on this thread, thanks for all of the valuable information I have received.
We’ve chosen to simply run the furnace for any temps below 45 degrees Fahrenheit.... with 2 electric Eva-Dry units (one small, one large) roof vents cracked, heavily insulated curtains..... minimal showers (under 40 degrees) and a small fan running most all the time to circulate air (when my wife or myself is home)
We’ll save the catalytic heater for boondocking in the fall and spring.

So far, I think it’s a good recipe.

[Bigventure]

One option no one mentioned, is to trade in for a new Classic with hot water heat. Its convection heat. Just don’t block the radiators.

[Jeffndaile]

Originally Posted by Bigventure

One option no one mentioned, is to trade in for a new Classic with hot water heat. Its convection heat. Just don’t block the radiators.

Friend of ours bought one of those here about a year ago when they first came out and man she’s having so much problems with it. Been in the shop 3 times I think. I think I’ll wait till those are proven first.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Jeffndaile

Friend of ours bought one of those here about a year ago when they first came out and man she’s having so much problems with it. Been in the shop 3 times I think. I think I’ll wait till those are proven first.

Hi

Picked ours up last spring. We've been out in it a ton of times. It's never been back to the shop. There have been no issues that have kept us from camping. The Alde heating system is absolutely amazing. Very quiet and it provides uniform heat throughout the trailer. I would *not* want to retrofit something like that into a trailer .... way to much work

Bob

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Bigventure

One option no one mentioned, is to trade in for a new Classic with hot water heat. Its convection heat. Just don’t block the radiators.

I come at it another direction. It’s the fact of ducted A/C (distribution, but mainly “quiet” operation). The Alde system is icing on the cake. In the past fifty years there’s been nothing else like these advances for this TT types interior.

Custom vinyl skirting plus custom Lexan interior storm windows would be then do most of what’s wanted for winter.