Full Time Winter Living Challenge # 17

[michael_d]

My wife and I have been living full time in our 2019 27' Globetrotter AS since May of this last year so we are going on 9 months. We have hunkered down for the winter in eastern WA on some property owned by family and are fortunate to have full hookups including a 125 gallon propane tank. We have put insulated skirting around the trailer to minimize heat loss and wind under the trailer. We have not moved the trailer since late October. So far, we have been dealing with the typical cold-weather issues. Temps have dropped down into the teens numerous times yet we are staying warm and comfortable inside. We have heated (and insulated) city water hoses which were purchased after our water supply froze just once! They have been working well ever since. We don't keep water in the fresh-water tank and usually keep the grey-water valve open and this has worked so far since the sewer hose run is short and it's usually hot/warm water running out from the shower or sinks. So now to the problem which most of you can probably guess:

We last emptied our black-water tank about 3 weeks ago and it was, shall we say, less than a fun experience. Things did not move well but temps were above freezing and we managed to empty it and run water into the tank flush to clean it out. Fast forward to today. We have not been able to empty the tank and have tried numerous techniques to do so. We have added water, "digesting agents" and RV-safe clog removers. No luck. We bought a sewer hose that we sacrificed by putting a small hole in the side close to the trailer valve so we could run a fish tape up to see if we could dislodge the jam. No dice. We bought a clear angled "flush valve" that attaches to the trailer discharge pipe and shot hot water up it from the outside with the black valve open and closed. Nothing but clear water ever came back. Bought a sewer inspection scope with lights/camera to put up the pipe but that effort proved fruitless as the lens kept getting obscured by the residual gunk in the pipe. Finally, yesterday while it was snowing, attached a tank heating pad to the underside of the black tank near the valve and ran wiring to the battery. This has been on heating for about 18 hours now. I am HOPING this helps but waiting on the high temps today (about 39 degrees). In the meantime, my questions are as follows:

1) Does anyone here have any experience with the black-water valve actually breaking inside so that it would not open? The "tension" on the handle feels about the same as the grey handle but the reason I ask is that I would have expected the blast of hot water up the clean out valve to produce the results of breaking up the clog and returning something a little less pleasant than clear water; unless it was hitting something else.
2) Any experience with these heating pads working on AS tanks? I attached the heat pad to the metal surface on the black side of the tank but I have no idea what the inner topology looks like.
3) If this does not work, I am considering calling a "real" plumber. Has anyone ever used or have any thoughts on calling a traditional plumbing service for an RV or trailer plumbing issue?
4) Any other thoughts, advice, recommendations, (or perhaps prayers or condolences would be better)?

Our black-water tank is at 95% so we need to get this resolved. Fortunately we have other facilities we can use in the meantime nearby but still want to get this fixed. Thanks in advance!

[skyguyscott]

Well, certainly, you have all of our prayers.

Sadly, I can only congratulate and admire your bold wintering adventure in your new Airstream; I have not had this experience yet, but I am reasonably sure that come spring, you will have fixed the issue and have discovered the true nature of the problem at hand, and please let the forum know, you might well save a fellow traveler from a similar fate.

Others here with more relevant experience are sure to soon offer their wisdom and experience and together, we'll figure it out.

The only idea I can offer is from what we used to do to prevent the pipes from freezing under a sink that was next to a northern wall up north: we purchased a simple heat lamp and plugged it in under the drain traps and just kept it on the whole time. If your hookup is under your trailer skirt, this may help some, especially if you disconnect the hose for a day and let the lamp radiate directly up the drain. The ambient daytime temps plus the added heat from the lamp may do some good.

This is assuming the problem is with the blade valve itself being frozen shut, which would coincide with some of what you report. However, if the handle/rod is broken off/away from the blade valve itself, that will be more tricky, and unpleasant.

If only you had access to a radioisotope you could drop into your tank to generate some heat...

[KelloggKid]

Michael, about 15 years ago my wife and I spent a year in an SOB near Coeur d Alene while our house was being built. Like you, I wrapped the city water hose (and spigot) with heat tape and insulation. I made temporary skirting out of 2" foam board which helped to keep the area under the trailer a little warmer. We didn't leave the grey water valve open but rather drained both black and grey every couple of days. I wrapped heat tape around both dump valves and the valve bodies and kept it plugged in. We had many nights that got down into the single digits and had no problems. The good new is you are going to be in the 40's for the next couple of days so hopefully things may thaw out.

[Gsmblue]

From reading your post I have to ask, when you have been inserting things through the dump drain, are you getting past the point where the sliding valve is? I ask as it has been known for the pull handles to fail and leave the sliding part in place.

[Foiled Again]

There is a there in here somewhere about replacing tank valves, but I am on a cell phone and the app doesn't do a great search. Basically you cut off a corner on the valve housing, then use needle nose pliers to open the valve, drain and clean everything to a parade rest, and then replace the whole valve assembly.

Meanwhile... heavy duty plastic bags IN the toilet. Use. Set out to freeze solid, dump down a septic cleanout or a deep secret "gopher hole". If you have space, use a porta-potty and empty into the outside drain hole.
The contents of the black tank can be removed via the flush hole by a septic tank service with a small enough hose but pray there are zero pinhole leaks in the hose and there are no drips from putting in or removing the hose. The smell? Urk.[emoji2961][emoji1785][emoji33]

I think that if the handle breaks off the valve you would have zero resistance? Hope so for your sake.

Good luck.

[Puddy]

Hello - my personal experience may be too dated. We full timed in a 1977 Airstream 31' when it was new. We even survived the Cleveland blizzard of the day in the Airstream. I used to run a hair dryer on the valve until it would drain. It usually did not take too long. Earlier we full timed in a 1974 Argosy - new then - and I left a 100 watt light bulb near the valves - and never had a problem dumping the tank - no matter how cold it was. Perhaps this does not apply today as I'm certain Airstream are constructed differently. At that time we lived full time in the Argosy - then a new 1976 Caravanner and finally the new 1977 Airstream and always did well with proper preparation in very cold climates.

My best to you....

[BayouBiker]

It seems very unlikely that it is a simple clog given the recent cleaning and the 3 inch drain size. It is either the valve is not opening due to handle separation which Gsmblue mentions does happen or the pipe likely just behind the valve is frozen.

You mention a large propane tank, I'm assuming you have been using the furnace, which blows some hot air into the tank pan and should keep it from freezing solid so I'm thinking the valve broke perhaps aggravated by local freezing right at the valve.

You didn't describe if you hit anything "solid" with the scope, how solid and how far in; it would be nice to have the information.

Inside the tank pans there is Styrofoam insulation. Not familiar with your arrangement but my valves are inside the pan. If you heat the pans long enough, any freezing will thaw, but it will take many long hours, perhaps a day or more.

Perhaps you can spray clean water up the pipe while using the scope and the clean water will keep the lens clear.

You should be able to insert a garden hose up past the valve also. Again it would be nice to know how far you were able to insert the scope.

If the valve is damaged, I'd be a bit leery of using a residential plumber to fix it, especially if the pan must be removed unless you know the reputation and capability of the person. Clearing a clog or plug should not be a problem except care not to tear or damage the valve seals needs to be considered.

[OTRA15]

Your toilet and black water tank were designed to work correctly only when you tow the trailer every few days, and thereby cause the solid fecal material and toilet paper to become [when mixed with urine and water] a liquid slurry, which will flow out the discharge pipe, with gravity as the main force helping it along.

Your stoppage was probably caused before freezing became a factor IMO. Waiting three weeks to dump the black tank was a sizeable mistake IMO.

Is your toilet directly over the black tank? Hold the toilet's stopper valve open, and stick your inspection camera down there, with proper lighting.

A mound of fecal material and TP may be your main problem.

Good luck,

Peter

PS -- Please refer to the "fork fell into black tank" thread for more details:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f444...nk-146797.html

[truxpin]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Waiting three weeks to dump the black tank was a sizeable mistake IMO.

Agreed, especially IF you're lucky enough to have the full hookups. 5 days Max when the temps drop to the questionable range.

While you should notice a SIZEABLE difference on the pull handle tension IF you've broken it free from the assembly, it's entirely possible that there is a wall of ice right where that blade assembly is. Its logical that while closed, one side has Black water against it and the other side of the blade had cold air against it.
Try this..... Pour a few gallons of HOT water down the sink drain to "warm" up the area down around where the drain valves are. Remove the slinky hose from the sewer connection and suspend it up high enough that the end is plenty high above the belt line of the trailer. Open both Black & grey valves, and pour another 3 or 4 gallons of very hot water in the sink.
With the slinky hose suspended and both valves "open", the hot water should settle in around the valve area and maybe, just MAYBE loosen/thaw the blockage/frozen area.
Be careful when letting the end of the slinky back down!!! IF anything did loosen up, you'll want to get that end reconnected in a hurry. While it's never a good idea to allow black water into the grey tank, it's one trick I used in a similar situation while full timing in a Kansas winter. ( our black tank valve was frozen in the rubber slide tract and wouldn't open. The hot water on the opposite side of the blade did the trick)
Good luck! (and thoughts & prayers!!)

[michael_d]

Thanks for your words of support. The problem is rather inexplicable at this point but will keep you posted once final resolution is determined! I've taken all the reasonable preventative and corrective measures at this point (at least from my perspective and limited experience) and yet here we remain; in the proverbial "rock and a hard place"! Oh well, luckily we aren't boondocking with limited resources. We will survive!

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I agree that the issue may well be a mountain of ... errr ... piled up in the tank. If indeed you want to try the "nuclear option" for de-freezing, head over to the local rental outfit. They have space heaters designed to warm up things like barns. More or less, they are a jet engine on a stand.

With a *lot* of care you can warm the entire underside of the trailer to however warm you might want it. The very real risk is starting a fire in the process. You do need to pay a lot of attention to what you are doing. Multiple observers and a bit of / stop / crawl under / check / start up again is most certainly called for.

Bob

[michael_d]

Originally Posted by Gsmblue

From reading your post I have to ask, when you have been inserting things through the dump drain, are you getting past the point where the sliding valve is? I ask as it has been known for the pull handles to fail and leave the sliding part in place.

Frankly this is my biggest fear. When the grey valve is closed but the black valve is open (or supposed to be), using my disposable sewer hose and fish tape, I can insert the flexible metal up about 4 feet but it always seems to hit something that turns it around on itself. This technique worked once in the past but with different (positive) results. It seems from what I can tell, the actual valve gate is still closed. The confusing thing is that this is a new trailer and the pull resistance on the handle feels about the same as the grey valve. I don't know for sure but think if the handle was broken or disconnected from the gate, it would pull much easier. I have also blasted very HOT water using a 45 degree clear rinse valve connected directly to the sewer outlet with the grey valve closed and all that over returns or flows back is clear water with no debris or other unmentionables in in. I should also reiterate that our furnace runs 60 degrees or warmer all the time, we have skirts on our trailer, heat pad on the bottom of the galvanized tank cover below the black tanks and still no success. We cannot MOVE the trailer either right now to take to the dealer (still under warranty) or even just drive it around to "shake things up". Still, things could be worse as we have heat, hot water, no grey tank issues etc. Thanks for your feedback!

[michael_d]

[/QUOTE] While you should notice a SIZEABLE difference on the pull handle tension IF you've broken it free from the assembly, it's entirely possible that there is a wall of ice right where that blade assembly is. Its logical that while closed, one side has Black water against it and the other side of the blade had cold air against it.
Try this..... Pour a few gallons of HOT water down the sink drain to "warm" up the area down around where the drain valves are. Remove the slinky hose from the sewer connection and suspend it up high enough that the end is plenty high above the belt line of the trailer. Open both Black & grey valves, and pour another 3 or 4 gallons of very hot water in the sink.
With the slinky hose suspended and both valves "open", the hot water should settle in around the valve area and maybe, just MAYBE loosen/thaw the blockage/frozen area.
Be careful when letting the end of the slinky back down!!! IF anything did loosen up, you'll want to get that end reconnected in a hurry. While it's never a good idea to allow black water into the grey tank, it's one trick I used in a similar situation while full timing in a Kansas winter. ( our black tank valve was frozen in the rubber slide tract and wouldn't open. The hot water on the opposite side of the blade did the trick)
Good luck! (and thoughts & prayers!!) [/QUOTE]

This sounds like a good technique but if this were the case (the ice dam or clog behind the black gate) it would seem like blasting very HOT water (we have access to a source of hot water in a nearby shop) into the cleanout valve straight up the sewer pipe would either melt the blockage or disrupt/dissolve the clog be it TP and related material. We have tried using this hot water method twice now for about 10 minutes straight and nothing ever breaks free and all we ever see coming back through the clear plastic valve is clear hot water. In theory, this should have worked unless there is a gate valve malfunction. Thanks for your advice however. We may yet give that a try!

[quietguy]

Originally Posted by michael_d

Frankly this is my biggest fear. When the grey valve is closed but the black valve is open (or supposed to be), using my disposable sewer hose and fish tape, I can insert the flexible metal up about 4 feet but it always seems to hit something that turns it around on itself. This technique worked once in the past but with different (positive) results. It seems from what I can tell, the actual valve gate is still closed. The confusing thing is that this is a new trailer and the pull resistance on the handle feels about the same as the grey valve. I don't know for sure but think if the handle was broken or disconnected from the gate, it would pull much easier. I have also blasted very HOT water using a 45 degree clear rinse valve connected directly to the sewer outlet with the grey valve closed and all that over returns or flows back is clear water with no debris or other unmentionables in in. I should also reiterate that our furnace runs 60 degrees or warmer all the time, we have skirts on our trailer, heat pad on the bottom of the galvanized tank cover below the black tanks and still no success. We cannot MOVE the trailer either right now to take to the dealer (still under warranty) or even just drive it around to "shake things up". Still, things could be worse as we have heat, hot water, no grey tank issues etc. Thanks for your feedback!

If you’re inserting a metal tape FOUR FEET in through the black water opening, you’re well inside the tank at that point.
FYI, there’s about a 2” (as I recall from factory tour...but maybe it’s 1”?!) solid block of styrofoam between the tank bottom and the belly pan, thus hampering your efforts to warm it up with the heat mat.

[Photobum]

I had an interesting experience a few years back with the blade in my black tank. It would not close, and that is an unacceptable situation... Airstream suggested that there was something in the gate keeping it from closing. Trying to save money I bought a case of Coca-Cola one liter bottles and filled my black tank with it. (For those of you that don't know this, the acidic quality of Coca-Cola will eat nails. It is used for a variety of things including battery terminals.). Anyway it did nothing and AS had to remove the gate and replace it. The problem? After three years on the road a large piece of wire had found its way to the gate. AS claimed that it wasn't a wire they used. My response? I would let them know when I was able to extrude wire into the toilet.
Your situation appears to be one of two things. 1. Your gate is not opening, and this appears to be issue. Or 2. Whatever is in your tank is blocking the gate. Either way I suspect you need service to remove and replace your gate. No fun that job.

[Rob Cope]

Yes, I am among those wanting to know your solution. I can only add that over three years -- in western WA -- have not had your problem. Of course, not as cold, but just survived into lower 20s, with heat lamp on near drains. Also never put TP into the toilet and make a point to keep lots of water (sometimes warm) in black water tank. Best possible wishes.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by michael_d

. . .
. . . The problem is rather inexplicable at this point but will keep you posted once final resolution is determined!
. . .

Given your other recent replies, one wonders whether you skipped over the advice in Post #8? [camera access from above etc.]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

. . .
. . . A mound of fecal material and TP may be your main problem.
. . .

All the "freeze-up' etc. issues may not be the root cause IMO. Rather, that mound could be, and you will have to "un-do" it. [pun intended!]

Peter

[andyherman]

I've been full-timing in my AS south of Ione, WA for @ a year and a half now (there's about 2-1/2 to 3 feet of snow on the ground here). Fortunately, this area is full of RV lots and there are a couple of mobile septic services that make regular runs to empty black tanks. You might check to see if there may be a similar service in your area.

I have the company come out every month to empty my black tank and have not had any real issues. The service I use has a setup similar to a Vactor truck that "sucks" out the contents. Whenever the service comes, I have @ 4-5 one gallon plastic bottles of water that I flush down the toilet as the tanks is being emptied.
You may also want to try one of those wands that can be inserted down into the toilet to spray water on the contents - that may also help to break up any "clogs".

[Pitou49]

I can't help to solve the problem. You already try what I would suggest.


I use my FW in winter event at 0 and less, and I keep grey and black valves open. I puts an heat wire and insulate the pipe even in the ground.

At pring time I make big flush to clean the tank.

[JohnTF]

I do full time , and in MN with the coldest temp at -35*f .
Been around RV / mobile home parks a lot , and lots of work on others trailer & mobile homes .
I do not use the plumbing fresh or black in the winter , use 5gal water jugs and a 5 gal water pale that has a spigot for wash water , then as you 1st mentioned " leave the drains open .
If they freeze up , then have to wait till spring to thaw out .
Unless for some reason and have lots of money to spend have a plumber at the worst / highest cost , rent a heated garage for at least 3 days if not longer - then drain .
It sounds/reads like you have options , so wait till spring .
Unlike most other trailers than Airstream , most of the plumbing is accessible from below & in cabinets so repairs etc. is not too much of an issue .
Problem with Airstream is , almost none of the plumbing is accessible - below the floor & inside of the belly pan , so is a major issue for most any work .
For that reason - full timing in winter DO NOT USE THE PLUMBING .
I have ideas about making full-time RV lots , but do not have any info on anyone doing it to be sure my ideas would work [ that failures are too big to try ] .
But the idea [ being in construction & in MN with -30 to -40 *f , that skirting especially an Airtream - inclose / belly pan , the issue is hot & cold radiate .
So building a winter time RV spot would need lots of insulation at least 4' deep or more for these temps , that boarder the trailer - so then skirting in direct contact with the underground insulation and near airtight to trailer - so that ground heat [ at min. 4' - 8' the ground is a steady 54*f , so then the heat from below will help with heating - not freezing plumbing .
The misunderstanding of skirting is - the heat under the trailer is sucked out by the cold - with the frozen ground being the conductor .
" heat evaporates into cold "