Freezing; Leave Inside Tap Dripping Enough?

[Silvr_Bullet]

Take a piece of metal 3” thick ( or 1/8” thick ) measuring 30’x30’ position it standing on edge in an open field, let the wind blow on it all day and all night at 15 mph ( any wind speed ). Is the temperature on either side of the slab of steel different, on the windward or downwind sides? Oh! then take a bucket of water on the sides above, any difference in temperature? How about a bucket of nuts and bolts, any difference in temperature?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The whole point here is about the *rate* of heat change in the object. Eventually under static conditions, rate does not matter. If you are talking about an overnight freeze, the rate that this or that cools down at matters very much. The air is not below freezing forever and ever, it gets cold and then warms back up. If this or that cools off quickly as the air temp drops, you have a problem. If it cools slowly you will be ok. It's the "dynamics" part of thermodynamics that is the issue.

Bob

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The whole point here is about the *rate* of heat change in the object. Eventually under static conditions, rate does not matter. If you are talking about an overnight freeze, the rate that this or that cools down at matters very much. The air is not below freezing forever and ever, it gets cold and then warms back up. If this or that cools off quickly as the air temp drops, you have a problem. If it cools slowly you will be ok. It's the "dynamics" part of thermodynamics that is the issue.

Bob

If it’s 34 degrees F and the wind is blowing, you’re ok, because the wind is not going to change the Ambient Temperature, and that’s the point. What you are writing about is not related to wind directly affecting Ambient Temperature and is not alone the cause of outdoor ( Ambient ) temperature.

[GetawA-S]

Originally Posted by DarthBrader

I think this common sense intuition is right. It’s called convective heat transfer. It depends on the temperature difference to the surrounding fluid (e.g. air), the exposed surface area, and, yes, the velocity of the surrounding fluid (e.g. wind), among other things. It deals with the rate of heat transfer, unlike wind chill, which deals with the human perception of temperature. Once the temperature difference is zero, there’s no convective heat transfer. But there may be evaporative or radiative heat transfer, which can have an additional impact.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conv...(heat_transfer)

Very well stated. To expand on that, evaporative cooling is limited by the wet bulb temperature of the air.
Radiative cooling differs from the others because no physical contact is required. The clear night sky acts likeis “black body” with a temperature of -70 F.

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by GetawA-S

Very well stated. To expand on that, evaporative cooling is limited by the wet bulb temperature of the air.

Radiative cooling differs from the others because no physical contact is required. The clear night sky acts likeis “black body” with a temperature of -70 F.

So now we’re talking about temperature and humidity and how it affects the human body?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-...be_temperature

[richard5933]

This thread is about whether or not the water inside outdoor plumbing will freeze in the few hours during the night that the outside temperature drops below 32F. That's it. It's not about wind chill or ambient temperature and how it's affected by the wind. It's the temperature of the water inside the plumbing we're concerned about - if it gets below the freeze point bad things can happen. Heat retention is the key here - slowing down the rate at which the water temp drops to below the freeze point.

There are so many variables in this equation that's it's impossible for anyone to make more than an educated guess. Best course of action is to not leave anything outside with water in it if temps are going to be below freezing.

But, will anything left outside when temps drop below freezing for a few hours always be at risk? Likely no. Large heat sinks that are nearby the plumbing such as the ground, a concrete slab or asphalt paving, a building, etc. will slow the process of plumbing freezing. Quite possibly enough so that no damage will be done before temps rise again in the morning.

Wind blowing through the night will negate the benefit of these heat sinks, but sometimes a simple wind break or cover can help hold the warmth of nearby heat sinks near the plumbing long enough to survive the night. This is similar to why tender plants can survive a night time frost by covering them with a plastic shield to help retain the warmth from the soil near the plants.

[KK4YZ]

As has been already mentioned, there is a boundary layer of air around the object in question. The thickness of that boundary layer will determine the rate of heat loss. Wind reduces the boundary layer thickness and, thus increases the rate of heat loss, hastening the freezing process.

Basic heat transfer concepts.

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by richard5933

This thread is about whether or not the water inside outdoor plumbing will freeze in the few hours during the night that the outside temperature drops below 32F. That's it. It's not about wind chill or ambient temperature and how it's affected by the wind. It's the temperature of the water inside the plumbing we're concerned about - if it gets below the freeze point bad things can happen. Heat retention is the key here - slowing down the rate at which the water temp drops to below the freeze point.



There are so many variables in this equation that's it's impossible for anyone to make more than an educated guess. Best course of action is to not leave anything outside with water in it if temps are going to be below freezing.



But, will anything left outside when temps drop below freezing for a few hours always be at risk? Likely no. Large heat sinks that are nearby the plumbing such as the ground, a concrete slab or asphalt paving, a building, etc. will slow the process of plumbing freezing. Quite possibly enough so that no damage will be done before temps rise again in the morning.



Wind blowing through the night will negate the benefit of these heat sinks, but sometimes a simple wind break or cover can help hold the warmth of nearby heat sinks near the plumbing long enough to survive the night. This is similar to why tender plants can survive a night time frost by covering them with a plastic shield to help retain the warmth from the soil near the plants.

So are you trying to direct responses to only what you feel supports your position rather than opposing view points? Most all of what’s been posted is relevant, sorry you don’t agree. That’s what a conversation is, sounds like you’re setting boundaries as to what can be posted and discussed. Topics such as‘ ambient temperature and wind chill ’ most certainly have a place in this context.

[richard5933]

Not really... Other people are free to have whatever opinion they want regarding what they feel is important on this subject, as am I.

[pcskier]

Guys, drop it. The OP has left the building after asking the question, this is pointless. Plus do any of you really think you will change the other guy’s mind? Jeezus. Go camping or something!

[GetawA-S]

So, OP said he was at 8,000 feet. Does anyone think that would affect how quickly his equipment freezes? Less atmosphere overhead, enhanced radiative heat loss, and all that…

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by GetawA-S

So, OP said he was at 8,000 feet. Does anyone think that would affect how quickly his equipment freezes? Less atmosphere overhead, enhanced radiative heat loss, and all that…

This is a great question, and got me doing some reading this morning. While water does boil at a noticeably lower temperature at higher altitudes, it appears that the freezing point changes are very slight and nearly imperceptible. At least at the altitudes we're talking about.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The original text of the original comment about wind was very much related to things freezing. That post *never* said that water freezes at 34 degrees.

If the air temp goes below freezing at night, things *might* freeze. Stuff sitting outside the trailer is going to freeze more quickly ( with the air temp below freezing ) *and* a wind blowing over the item than with it just sitting there in still air.

I sure hope that's clear.

Bob

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The original text of the original comment about wind was very much related to things freezing. That post *never* said that water freezes at 34 degrees.

If the air temp goes below freezing at night, things *might* freeze. Stuff sitting outside the trailer is going to freeze more quickly ( with the air temp below freezing ) *and* a wind blowing over the item than with it just sitting there in still air.

I sure hope that's clear.

Bob

I’am not a meteorologist or an expert in the field, maybe you are? This may be a difficult concept to understand, reading back through this thread some are talking about covering tomato plants at night ( which creates an ambient temperature under plastic = heat radiating upward from the ground ) that’s true much like a glass enclosed porch surrounded with closed glass, it would take longer but eventually with a constant outdoor temperature minus radiation heating and cooling it will be as the outside temperature. In both instances a micro environment is created.
When talking about outdoor ambient temperature, it’s a massive environment, the examples above are insignificant and I believe unrelated to the OP. The water that is provided from the campground is from piping below ground that is warmer than the ambient temperature in the atmosphere when one is talking freezing or near freezing Ambient Temperature ( here’s the ‘A’ word again ). The molecules in warmer water are less than cold water and will freeze quicker at 32f, so that’s another factor to consider. In any case my non-expert opinion is that the wind is not a factor and I would rely solely on the forecast or present Ambient Temperature ( outdoor temperature ) in any case you’re entitled to your “opinions” and I am entitled to mine. * I have provided corroborating examples, where others have not, only opinions offered.
Forgot to post this.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The question asked and answered relates to how *fast* something freezes when left out in air that the thermometer says is below freezing.

Bob

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The question asked and answered relates to how *fast* something freezes when left out in air that the thermometer says is below freezing.

Bob

Trying to muddy up the waters are we ( you )?

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by TravisH

Hi,

I'm staying another week up ~8000 feet and it's been getting close to 30° every night. A couple nights predicted to hit ~28°,

I have outdoor 2 canister filter system and an On The Go water softener. It's a real hassle to roll them up and bring inside or TV and am wondering if a slight drip stream of water is enough to keep them safev outside.

I'm in a place with no shortage of water so not a waste per se. I think ~1 gallon an hour should be ok....

What say you?

Thanks,

Trav

*******
Lots of Scientists on the Forum. I am impressed.

I have a well documented post on Winter Living... which I do not recommend to any travel trailer owner. 10,000+ feet is even cooler... if you like fresh air.

We have had mornings, in the Spring of this year below 20F at Sunrise. Nothing froze, except the dog's water bowl sitting outside the trailer and held maybe one quart of water. Froze to the bottom... solid. Ohhhh weeeee. It was 18F or 19F in New Mexico at elevation.

Thin air cools quickly at Sunset. Thin air with clear skies and Sunlight... warm up the trailer just fine at Sunrise. The higher the elevation... the faster is cools or warms up. Try it some time... you will then understand.

Humidity is for your SKIN. Nothing to do with water freezing inside or attached under your trailer. Like a Fresh Water Tank freezing solid... which is unlikely. The more water in the fresh water tank, the less likely of it freezing top to bottom.

With caveats... of course. Volume of water in fresh water tank, black and grey tanks, inside temperature within the trailer by AM and common sense options. (Set camp empty of water... in the fresh, grey and black tanks... and you are on your way to... not damaging your Airstream.)

An Airstream is not a Four Season Trailer. The longer the Airstream... the more to heat. The Oliver Elite II has less air volume than the 23 foot Airstream. It is fiber glass with insulation between the inside and outside fiberglass. Real cozy at 20F and nothing freezes... except the dog's water bowl. In the mid 20's... maybe the top will ice up on the dog's water bowl.

If you are in 24 hours or more below 25F... you will suffer if you do not begin to DRAIN ALL YOUR WATER to be 100% safe.

Trust me... we do not intentionally camp at elevation to experience those unexpected freezes that come as part of the 'experience'.

We keep a temperature gauge that remotely sends a temperature and humidity, for the inside the trailer and outside. If the trailer is in the upper 30's... we will turn the furnace on for 30 minutes to an hour. Usually just before Sunrise, as that is when the lowest outside temperatures will be experienced.

This is not a simple experience to get yourself into, if you are a newbie. Travel Trailers do not handle Winter temperatures below 30F well, and below 20F you had better dumped fresh water from the entire system.

-Water Pump moving air with all lines open Hot and Cold
-Hot Water Tank
-Interior Water Lines and leave them open for air and water left to expand
-Remove hose from water source if at a RV Park
-Really cold... traps in sinks and shower and outside shower water lines
-The list gets long and longer...

Maybe someone in Alaska has some comments. The Cedar Breaks, Utah at 10,200 feet will get below 20F in the Summer... but into the low 70's during the day. Many are not prepared. Neither are the Tent Campers.

We are prepared for ALL Seasons at Elevation. We do not camp in the 'cold months' unless in southern Arizona or areas that do not freeze frequently. Even Tucson, Arizona will have a passing freeze into the 20's in February during the Gem and Mineral Show... Yep... how would I know? Guess.

Trailer Owners in Wyoming understands as well. Tell us if you would. Even house trailers with bales of straw, water line heating tape and... frozen water systems.

If you want to do Winter Travel Trailer Camping... NO WATER. Carry jugs. If this is asking too much.... great. You will have a water line repair bill that will finance the worker's next pickup truck.

Oh. the jugs will freeze as well. Fill them 80% for expansion. The water will be chilled all day for your comfort.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet

Trying to muddy up the waters are we ( you )?

Hi

Not in the least, I've been saying the exact same thing over and over and over again.

Bob

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi



Not in the least, I've been saying the exact same thing over and over and over again.



Bob

Anyone that reads through the thread can decide for themselves, post speak to everything. In reality you didn’t say very much with any substance, in my opinion. The simple fact is wind doesn’t change Ambient Temperature.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet

Anyone that reads through the thread can decide for themselves, post speak to everything. In reality you didn’t say very much with any substance, in my opinion. The simple fact is wind doesn’t change Ambient Temperature.

You're correct - wind doesn't change ambient temperature directly.

But, the core of the OP's concern was not about the ambient temperature or whether or not the wind changed it.

The concern was about whether or not the water in the plumbing would freeze in the few hours of sub-freezing air temps predicted for the coming week. This situation is time related in that the goal was to prevent the water from freezing before the air temps warmed up again the following morning.

Ambient temperature certainly is a factor in the answer to this question. In fact it was part of the question - the OP mentioned the predicted air temps in the initial post. But the answer also includes many other factors as have been pointed out numerous times. A complete answer to the question requires discussion of all factors which can affect how quickly the water will/can drop below the freeze point. As pointed out, wind is one of those factors if it causes the retained heat from the plumbing and surrounding area to be dissipated more quickly.

The concept of wind affecting the cooling of a plumbing system should be apparent just by looking at the radiator of any vehicle engine. There is a fan mounted on/near the radiator because air flow increases the rate at which the heat is dissipated from the radiator and the coolant inside it.

Same thing for the fans people put behind their refrigerators to help cool the coils - the air flow increases the rate at which heat is dissipated.