First Full-Time Winter in SW NM in Argosy

[too_new]

Originally Posted by KeithT

You are not wrong. This is a tough ask on limited power.

I used a heat strip in our ac to keep a fiberglass trailer of similar size warm when it was 9 degrees out. There was frost on the interior walls and all the pipes were empty, but it was livable for sleeping. That was on a 30 amp connection and the heat strip pulled about 25 amps IIRC. That would be about 3000 watts. So, I think two 1500 watt heater *may* be able to keep it livable, but it won’t be ideal and it will require vigilance and efficient fans to keep the pipes warm.

And there is no chance the water heater can run at the same time. That’s just math.

Speaking of math, as a test (I don't have a way currently to test real-time amp draw but am researching that), I hooked up a duraflame "heat cube" (running high at 1500w), a small Intertek ceramic heater (at 1500W), and turned the water heater on. All three are on different circuits. I also have some lights, my laptop powered, and am charging a couple of USB devices. The fridge is running on electric as if (of course) the converter. That should be everything at the moment.

It's been that way for a half hour now, and there is no sign of a breaker tripping. I'm not sure how that could be as I think that should be well over 30A. To be clear, I don't want to use ceramic heaters (and would run two radiators on medium if I were going to go in that direction), but wanted to test the load. I just don't know how they could all run at the same time with no problem. Of course, I don't want to overheat anything at the pedestal either, so this may not be a long term option even if a breaker isn't tripped. I did want to test (briefly) if the load could be handled from a power management perspective.

What am I missing?

P.S. I did this because it looks like a mini split (including install if I needed help with that) would just be too expensive for me right now. Still looking at diesel heaters.

[KeithT]

Originally Posted by too_new

Speaking of math, as a test (I don't have a way currently to test real-time amp draw but am researching that), I hooked up a duraflame "heat cube" (running high at 1500w), a small Intertek ceramic heater (at 1500W), and turned the water heater on. All three are on different circuits. I also have some lights, my laptop powered, and am charging a couple of USB devices. The fridge is running on electric as if (of course) the converter. That should be everything at the moment.

It's been that way for a half hour now, and there is no sign of a breaker tripping. I'm not sure how that could be as I think that should be well over 30A. To be clear, I don't want to use ceramic heaters (and would run two radiators on medium if I were going to go in that direction), but wanted to test the load. I just don't know how they could all run at the same time with no problem. Of course, I don't want to overheat anything at the pedestal either, so this may not be a long term option even if a breaker isn't tripped. I did want to test (briefly) if the load could be handled from a power management perspective.

What am I missing?

P.S. I did this because it looks like a mini split (including install if I needed help with that) would just be too expensive for me right now. Still looking at diesel heaters.

That does sound like more than 30 amps, but I’m guessing you don’t have the tools to measure that. You may just be getting lucky with the cycling of the different heating elements or loads. Do you know the wattage of the water heater and fridge?

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by KeithT

That does sound like more than 30 amps, but I’m guessing you don’t have the tools to measure that. You may just be getting lucky with the cycling of the different heating elements or loads. Do you know the wattage of the water heater and fridge?

The other concern overloading and a plug overheating; melting plastic or fire. Real concerns without knowing overall load. Because you don't notice anything, is not a safe answer if your planning on using this set up and do not know the overall load, especially if your "power cords" are overloaded. Many of us have witnessed a blown melted plug on the outside, if youve camped a lot like we have. Two years ago, the SOB trailer behind us in San Diego, was overloaded, and the plug melted in the outside power port. Circuit board was also fried. Just saying, be safe.

[too_new]

Originally Posted by KeithT

That does sound like more than 30 amps, but I’m guessing you don’t have the tools to measure that. You may just be getting lucky with the cycling of the different heating elements or loads. Do you know the wattage of the water heater and fridge?

The water heater has a 1440 watt electric element / draws 12 amps. The fridge uses 90 watts of power / 7.5 amps. The converter (which appears to be original) should be between 1-8.

Someone had posted that making sure that the water heater is full and fully heated (and then turning it off before going to bed) should keep the water it in from freezing due to how it insulates. Not sure I want to test that ;] It might be an option, though. Also, if it's full, any frozen water in it will have nowhere to expand...and there's no way to know how full it is at any given moment as far as I know.

I do realize that, as it gets colder, the water heater and space heaters (likely radiator) will have to work harder and cycle more.

Lots of figuring to do. Maybe I need to get one of those c-clamps (unless there's a better way) to test the amp draw. I thought my RV surge protector would do that, but I guess not.

As far as heat goes, a mini-split won't fit in here due to their footprint and the rounded edges of the trailer. I don't think park management would want me to run a diesel heater. So radiator(s) may be the only choice.

[KeithT]

Originally Posted by too_new

The water heater has a 1440 watt electric element / draws 12 amps. The fridge uses 90 watts of power / 7.5 amps. The converter (which appears to be original) should be between 1-8.

Someone had posted that making sure that the water heater is full and fully heated (and then turning it off before going to bed) should keep the water it in from freezing due to how it insulates. Not sure I want to test that ;] It might be an option, though. Also, if it's full, any frozen water in it will have nowhere to expand...and there's no way to know how full it is at any given moment as far as I know.

I do realize that, as it gets colder, the water heater and space heaters (likely radiator) will have to work harder and cycle more.

Lots of figuring to do. Maybe I need to get one of those c-clamps (unless there's a better way) to test the amp draw. I thought my RV surge protector would do that, but I guess not.

As far as heat goes, a mini-split won't fit in here due to their footprint and the rounded edges of the trailer. I don't think park management would want me to run a diesel heater. So radiator(s) may be the only choice.

Water heater plus two space heaters will get you over 30 amps then. Whether the breaker is tripping now is kind of irrelevant. You should not plan on using over 30 amps on a 30 amp system.

I don’t know enough about your setup to know if you water heater would freeze overnight or not. It’s not something I care to contemplate, really.

This whole endeavor seems to riding on a razor thin edge of possibility with very little margin for error. I’d be working on plan B and C if I were trying to pull this off.

My plan B when living in a trailer was a propane generator that I had to crank up on a sub 10 degree night for a few hours. My plan C was an insulated metal building with central heat nearby. My plan D was my in-law’s guest room that was not too far away.

Having those alternatives made it much less risky.

[too_new]

Originally Posted by KeithT

Water heater plus two space heaters will get you over 30 amps then. Whether the breaker is tripping now is kind of irrelevant. You should not plan on using over 30 amps on a 30 amp system.

I don’t know enough about your setup to know if you water heater would freeze overnight or not. It’s not something I care to contemplate, really.

This whole endeavor seems to riding on a razor thin edge of possibility with very little margin for error. I’d be working on plan B and C if I were trying to pull this off.

My plan B when living in a trailer was a propane generator that I had to crank up on a sub 10 degree night for a few hours. My plan C was an insulated metal building with central heat nearby. My plan D was my in-law’s guest room that was not too far away.

Having those alternatives made it much less risky.

Thanks again for your insights. They've been very helpful.

[too_new]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

The other concern overloading and a plug overheating; melting plastic or fire. Real concerns without knowing overall load. Because you don't notice anything, is not a safe answer if your planning on using this set up and do not know the overall load, especially if your "power cords" are overloaded. Many of us have witnessed a blown melted plug on the outside, if youve camped a lot like we have. Two years ago, the SOB trailer behind us in San Diego, was overloaded, and the plug melted in the outside power port. Circuit board was also fried. Just saying, be safe.

I definitely don't want to do that, and am looking at ways to measure overall load. I do have a multimeter, but not a c clamp.

I've read that getting a full how water heater to temp before going to bed, may prevent the water in it from freezing overnight due to the insulation. If I could do this as opposed to leaving it on all night, that would be up some amperage.

Do you think that might work, or is it impossible to say due to there being so many variables?

[too_new]

Originally Posted by too_new

I definitely don't want to do that, and am looking at ways to measure overall load. I do have a multimeter, but not a c clamp.

I've read that getting a full how water heater to temp before going to bed, may prevent the water in it from freezing overnight due to the insulation. If I could do this as opposed to leaving it on all night, that would be up some amperage.

Do you think that might work, or is it impossible to say due to there being so many variables?

*free* up some amperage

[Ray Eklund]

We have been through Mimbres, NM many times. The trees lining the Mimbres River ARE very dense... so I understand the lack of Sunlight. (From the south from San Lorenzo.)

If it is possible to set up in the open areas to the East in the Farm Land Flat areas? No power, town water... though? We camped often in the Gila National Forest to the north. Lots of Sun... but too high for you and no water, for sure.

One heater that works well is the Potable Buddy 4,000-9,000 btu Propane cylinders. For a long term campsite in mostly shaded conditions, you would need a lot of these small propane cylinders. Maybe available in Silver City, being the larger town. Our concern about CO Carbon Monoxide kept me sleeping lightly... I must say. But did not have an issue. Preferred that over the Trailer's Furnace, as it takes it awhile to get hot, and then we would shut it down. The fan runs and eventually shuts off. (Indoor Safe... on the carton.)

Some say they hook the Buddy to a larger Propane tank... We used this ten or more years ago. I keep it as I have cylinders and it works just fine after our using it around 3AM to 4AM to make the interior of the 23 footer... comfortable in Higher Elevation Summer Camping. Now we add sleeping bags as blankets... in the event at 8,000+ feet elevation gets... frisky.

Full Sun Days... windows open... then close before Sunset.

Trailer Propane for cooking and keeping the propane Refrigerator cold. Rarely for furnace heat and short periods of time.

Love the Gila National Forest... in the Summer.

San Lorenzo seemed to be more open, as I recall. Maybe more SUN, which works great with your size of trailer. An Airstream from 1 freezing to 10 hot would probably be a 2-3 with minimal radiant Sun... a 5/6 in San Lorenzo with full Sun during the daylight hours.

You are getting lots of good options. Been through town and understand your situation. Shade is not good Summer or Winter there.

Make it through One Winter... and you are one Pioneer with Experience.

[G8trwood]

If they allow skirting, something as simple as construction foam board taped under rocker and to the ground would go a long way. Simple light or small heater as stated. It will be a series of things to keep you comfortable vs a silver bullet. Is power stable there?

[too_new]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

We have been through Mimbres, NM many times. The trees lining the Mimbres River ARE very dense... so I understand the lack of Sunlight. (From the south from San Lorenzo.)

If it is possible to set up in the open areas to the East in the Farm Land Flat areas? No power, town water... though? We camped often in the Gila National Forest to the north. Lots of Sun... but too high for you and no water, for sure.

One heater that works well is the Potable Buddy 4,000-9,000 btu Propane cylinders. For a long term campsite in mostly shaded conditions, you would need a lot of these small propane cylinders. Maybe available in Silver City, being the larger town. Our concern about CO Carbon Monoxide kept me sleeping lightly... I must say. But did not have an issue. Preferred that over the Trailer's Furnace, as it takes it awhile to get hot, and then we would shut it down. The fan runs and eventually shuts off. (Indoor Safe... on the carton.)

Some say they hook the Buddy to a larger Propane tank... We used this ten or more years ago. I keep it as I have cylinders and it works just fine after our using it around 3AM to 4AM to make the interior of the 23 footer... comfortable in Higher Elevation Summer Camping. Now we add sleeping bags as blankets... in the event at 8,000+ feet elevation gets... frisky.

Full Sun Days... windows open... then close before Sunset.

Trailer Propane for cooking and keeping the propane Refrigerator cold. Rarely for furnace heat and short periods of time.

Love the Gila National Forest... in the Summer.

San Lorenzo seemed to be more open, as I recall. Maybe more SUN, which works great with your size of trailer. An Airstream from 1 freezing to 10 hot would probably be a 2-3 with minimal radiant Sun... a 5/6 in San Lorenzo with full Sun during the daylight hours.

You are getting lots of good options. Been through town and understand your situation. Shade is not good Summer or Winter there.

Make it through One Winter... and you are one Pioneer with Experience.

What a thoughtful post! Sounds like you've been to some beautiful places ;]

A portable propane heater sounds like a good idea if I can get it filled. Perhaps a used generator, but this is getting expensive.

I agree that I'll have a much better idea of what needs to be done after this winter. Just learning and preparing now to give myself the best chance of success. Several posters here have been helpful (including yourself now

[too_new]

Originally Posted by G8trwood

If they allow skirting, something as simple as construction foam board taped under rocker and to the ground would go a long way. Simple light or small heater as stated. It will be a series of things to keep you comfortable vs a silver bullet. Is power stable there?

Yes, it has been. Rare that it goes out, but never been through a winter here.

Do you think heat tape on the city water inlet, drain valves and pipes would be enough without skirting or a small light? I don't think they allow that here, and power is at a premium.

I know it's impossible to say since there are so many variables.

[Wazbro]

For the water heater, when in use it is always full, as hot water is used cold water replaces it, there is always the same amount of water in the tank. Well there are slight changes (an once or two) that you wont be able to measure and the air pocket slowly going away over a few months.

You could add a separate heating element that only uses 425 watts like this one, it would run about 3 times as long to heat the water but, it would save 1000 watts of your 30 amp budget. If you leave the cord plugged in outside you could save the whole 1400 watts.
https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Water-Hyb...zcF9hdGY&psc=1

[too_new]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

For the water heater, when in use it is always full, as hot water is used cold water replaces it, there is always the same amount of water in the tank. Well there are slight changes (an once or two) that you wont be able to measure and the air pocket slowly going away over a few months.

You could add a separate heating element that only uses 425 watts like this one, it would run about 3 times as long to heat the water but, it would save 1000 watts of your 30 amp budget. If you leave the cord plugged in outside you could save the whole 1400 watts.
https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Water-Hybrid-Heat-Kit/dp/B0B7X9HNYH/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=UUDO8OEGBIRJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9 .fhJ0EZ3d6D2qJmXpnlEkP2GwPjXx7wW5jL66oF70sSvhdyEAl 426EUfmitv2jj0xwGyePm-8Zf6s012jKej9HzgFq285AukOVmtsHs7AuS0Xj5oWKTvjbqc8V hCTTvBOx6BqxADRrZfwo3Ec3yyUvwXuSBhJEdxR_mAYIkLHfrG kD6sUDF5Y1WKsFlwOZGODd_QLjzNqHCxwI568YgHwWmvoCgcvy 3XNfBpc_stvmIM.AMxgWqOD-nr_z-e_HrF_pTDcaCTl33NUpN8FL9h04b_c&dib_tag=se&keywords =hot+rod+water+heater&qid=1729474905&sprefix=hot+r od+water+heater%2Caps%2C212&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

Great information regarding it always being full. That's how I envisioned it working, but could never get a definitive answer. Not even the Suburban rep could tell me for sure.

I'll look into that heater. For some reason, using it with other large appliances (a 1500W heater and then some) doesn't trip a breaker. The AC always would if turned on when the hot water heater was on. Still need to test amperage as I don't want go over 30, but from what I'm seeing, some things draw more or less than indicated. Of course, there is always that initial surge.

Maybe I will be able to get it to temp before bed and then turn it off. The water is always lukewarm in the morning, but I've never tested it in sub-freezing temps...

[uncle_bob]

Hi

A lot of folks have given this a try. The most basic problem is that you spend more money on heat than you would renting a place to live "in town". No, that's not true for every single day, it is true for December through March in the sort of area you are in.

Maxing out the power from a 30A service, you *might* be able to heat the trailer when it's freezing out. If it gets down to zero .... not so much. A lot of AS trailers have electric plus propane heat. They are as efficient as anything out there. They don't make it past about 40 degrees.

If you are trying for 60 degrees inside, you will use X amount of power to heat it up 20 degrees when its 40 out. You will use 2 times X that power to heat it 40 degrees when it's 20 out. You get to 2.5 times X when it's zero out. If the wind blows, those numbers all get worse. If the sun goes down ... they also get worse.

Even with propane and a furnace that will put out the massive amount of energy needed, you still need to get a truck in every month or so to replace / refill that great big tank by the trailer. If the snow comes and they stop "going up there" ... yikes.

Backing up a bit:

If you want to have water, more than just the pipes in the trailer need to be taken care of. The well pump needs to stay warm enough it does not freeze. The same is true of all the pipes from the well over towards the trailer. The ground has a "freeze depth". You need to manage anything that goes above that level.

The same issue applies to water going out of the trailer. It needs to stay above freezing until it gets below freeze depth. Hopefully the septic system is below that point. (If it was set up as a summer use location .... maybe not ....). Even if it is, if you put water down a drain and it's above the freeze depth, the water will turn to ice in the pipe. It sits there and just builds and builds. After a few days ... the pipe is plugged and there's no place for the sewage to go.

In a home, all your pipes would head out through the basement or something similar. They would exit below the freeze line. The space the travel below the home would be heated enough for it not to be a problem. (Yes, homes designed for summer only use .... hmmmm ..... ).

So if you want to go electric only, get at least a 50A 240V feed. Ideally you would want a 100A feed. You then need a *lot* of heaters to hook up to it and a lot of heating for all those pipes.

Alternately, insulate the trailer with 3" of insulation on all the walls, and the floor. Bring all the pipes inside that insulation layer. Replace the windows with double pane (or better yet triple pane versions. You then are closer to the way a house would be insulated. The point being "closer" and not "close". You still would have a long way to go to get to a typical home setup.

Lots of issues....

Bob

[Ray Eklund]

www.weather-atlas.com (Search Mimbres, New Mexico)

Looks like reasonable weather to me during the 'cold months'. If the Weather Atlas is even close... maybe more Airstream owners will be coming... soon.


Weather in January
January, the same as December, in Mimbres, New Mexico, is a frosty winter month, with temperature in the range of an average low of 30.2°F (-1°C) and an average high of 49.5°F (9.7°C). Entering January, Mimbres's average high-temperature reads a still chilly 49.5°F (9.7°C), indicating a close resemblance to the previous month's climate. Weather in January »

Weather in February
February, the last month of the winter in Mimbres, is a fresh month, with an average temperature ranging between max 52.9°F (11.6°C) and min 33.4°F (0.8°C). Mimbres marks the arrival of February with an average high-temperature of a fresh 52.9°F (11.6°C), hardly different from January's 49.5°F (9.7°C). Weather in February »

Weather in March
March, the first month of the spring in Mimbres, is a refreshing month, with an average temperature fluctuating between 61.2°F (16.2°C) and 39°F (3.9°C). A slight uplift in the average high-temperature marks March, adjusting from February's fresh 52.9°F (11.6°C) to a refreshing 61.2°F (16.2°C). Weather in March »

[too_new]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

A lot of folks have given this a try. The most basic problem is that you spend more money on heat than you would renting a place to live "in town". No, that's not true for every single day, it is true for December through March in the sort of area you are in.

Maxing out the power from a 30A service, you *might* be able to heat the trailer when it's freezing out. If it gets down to zero .... not so much. A lot of AS trailers have electric plus propane heat. They are as efficient as anything out there. They don't make it past about 40 degrees.

If you are trying for 60 degrees inside, you will use X amount of power to heat it up 20 degrees when its 40 out. You will use 2 times X that power to heat it 40 degrees when it's 20 out. You get to 2.5 times X when it's zero out. If the wind blows, those numbers all get worse. If the sun goes down ... they also get worse.

Even with propane and a furnace that will put out the massive amount of energy needed, you still need to get a truck in every month or so to replace / refill that great big tank by the trailer. If the snow comes and they stop "going up there" ... yikes.

Backing up a bit:

If you want to have water, more than just the pipes in the trailer need to be taken care of. The well pump needs to stay warm enough it does not freeze. The same is true of all the pipes from the well over towards the trailer. The ground has a "freeze depth". You need to manage anything that goes above that level.

The same issue applies to water going out of the trailer. It needs to stay above freezing until it gets below freeze depth. Hopefully the septic system is below that point. (If it was set up as a summer use location .... maybe not ....). Even if it is, if you put water down a drain and it's above the freeze depth, the water will turn to ice in the pipe. It sits there and just builds and builds. After a few days ... the pipe is plugged and there's no place for the sewage to go.

In a home, all your pipes would head out through the basement or something similar. They would exit below the freeze line. The space the travel below the home would be heated enough for it not to be a problem. (Yes, homes designed for summer only use .... hmmmm ..... ).

So if you want to go electric only, get at least a 50A 240V feed. Ideally you would want a 100A feed. You then need a *lot* of heaters to hook up to it and a lot of heating for all those pipes.

Alternately, insulate the trailer with 3" of insulation on all the walls, and the floor. Bring all the pipes inside that insulation layer. Replace the windows with double pane (or better yet triple pane versions. You then are closer to the way a house would be insulated. The point being "closer" and not "close". You still would have a long way to go to get to a typical home setup.

Lots of issues....

Bob

Hi Bob,

I'm in a park, and have no control over the well pump or the related pipes. Moving the trailer to 50A service isn't an option at the moment.

Maybe two 1100W space heaters can keep it to 60 or above if I get the water heater to temp and then shut if off for the night. I will do what I can to insulate.

Most of the water going out will be hot shower water or the sludge going out of the black tank.

I'll continue to insulate as the temps drop, but don't know that I'll get to three layers.

In terms of heating the copper water inlet as well as the drain valves and pipes, do you think heat tape insulated with polyethylene over it would be better than a clamped heat lamp or work light or somehow hanging over the bumper compartment (for the colder nights)? It rarely gets below 20. The downside to the heat lamp is that I'm not sure I can heat the copper water inlet with it as well because the drain valves and pipes are in the bumper compartment.

[too_new]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

www.weather-atlas.com (Search Mimbres, New Mexico)

Looks like reasonable weather to me during the 'cold months'. If the Weather Atlas is even close... maybe more Airstream owners will be coming... soon.


Weather in January
January, the same as December, in Mimbres, New Mexico, is a frosty winter month, with temperature in the range of an average low of 30.2°F (-1°C) and an average high of 49.5°F (9.7°C). Entering January, Mimbres's average high-temperature reads a still chilly 49.5°F (9.7°C), indicating a close resemblance to the previous month's climate. Weather in January »

Weather in February
February, the last month of the winter in Mimbres, is a fresh month, with an average temperature ranging between max 52.9°F (11.6°C) and min 33.4°F (0.8°C). Mimbres marks the arrival of February with an average high-temperature of a fresh 52.9°F (11.6°C), hardly different from January's 49.5°F (9.7°C). Weather in February »

Weather in March
March, the first month of the spring in Mimbres, is a refreshing month, with an average temperature fluctuating between 61.2°F (16.2°C) and 39°F (3.9°C). A slight uplift in the average high-temperature marks March, adjusting from February's fresh 52.9°F (11.6°C) to a refreshing 61.2°F (16.2°C). Weather in March »

Am I worrying too much, you think?

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by too_new

Am I worrying too much, you think?

Won't know the answer to that question till Spring! But, Uncle Bob's advise about cost to do all this vs an apt. is pretty good advice.

[TouringDan]

Too New

I have done some winter camping in West Virginia and it was quite cold but I only did this for a few days at a time when I went skiing.

I would probably operate using water from the water tank. Just refil it during the day when it is warm out.

Trying to winter camp without a furnace is difficult at best. I wouldn’t do it.
I would install a new furnace and the necessary propane lines.

If you need to heat with electric resistance heaters it will be expensive but here is what I would do. Heat the smallest area possible. Like only heat the bedroom at night and only the living area you are using during the day. At night use a mattress pad heater. It only uses about 90 watts and you will be plenty warm at least when you are sleeping.

Good luck.

Dan