Full-electric winter plumbing modifications?

[Lindenwood]

While I have asked a few questions in other winter-related threads, I thought this might warrant its own thread since it is kindof a specific discussion topic.

Background:
We will be spending about 180 days a year largely tethered in NM for my job, and will be living full-time in an FC30 FB Bunk. Most of our planned modifications revolve around comfortable full-timing with as few restrictions and caveats as is reasonably possible. Specifically, while I expect to handle most of the technical household chores related to living in an AS, I usually have an extended (multi-month) work trip at least once a year. Especially during winter, I would like to minimize the list of concerns and must-dos that I have to hand to my wife during these periods. Of course, specific to this thread, she would likely travel to warmer areas for much of this time, but that also includes Oklahoma (where our families are), which isn't much warmer.

To the point:
Beyond hasty light bulb riggings, has anyone done semi-permanent electrical heating modifications, across the whole ststem, to keep plumbing warm without the furnace? I've been digging into the idea of using a series of heating pads and tapes mounted in strategic and vulnerable locations to keep the tanks and plumbing from freezing, and it doesn't seem too crazy so far.

For example, tank heating pads I found on etrailer.com use 65 watts each, or (obviously) ~200 watts for the three tanks. Lots of their smaller pads (for elbows and such) use as little as 7.5w each. Even their 50ft heating line (I guess what we call "heat tape?") uses only 300w, and could easily be looped around all the higher-risk plumbing.

Thus, with careful planning I imagine one could use less than 500w of power to keep all the pipes and tanks from freezing (perhaps assuming disconnected from city water). In other words, with less than 5A at 120v, one could easily wire it as a single 120v circuit through a single switch, or even an automatic thermostat, for simple freeze protection.

The ultimate goal would be to avoid having to refill propane tanks every 3 days during winter cold snaps while connected to shore power. Of course, this assumes strategic use of space heaters, heated bed pads, and fleece robes / slippers as required.

Some additional thoughts:

1) Heating an external water hose sounds much more difficult and power-intensive, so we would probably be okay with disconnecting the city water inlet during winter and simply filling the fresh tank every few days.

2) I have also been digging into other options, like spare propane tanks in the truck. For day-to-day living, the above-described electric solution seems physically safer, easier, and much simpler than having her switch out trailer tanks twice a week (if relying primarily on the furnace for heat), even if she could theoretically go longer intervals without actually taking them for filling.

3) I imagine this system might only supplement the furnace, rather than completely replace it. Still, having to move a single 30lb tank perhaps 2 or 3 times while I'm gone, rather than 20 or 30 times, should be a lot more managable for her.

4) I think I could probably pull this whole thing off for maybe $500. If it works, it might save $100/mo on propane during winter, and generally obviates the purchase of maybe 2 or 3 additional $50lb tanks. Of course, the project has little to do with money, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Whew! Long read, I know. But, I figure the more I get our now, the more accurate your assessments! Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

[OTRA15]

An excellent idea to start a new dedicated thread. Well done.

Peter

PS -- The Winter Modifications thread, where I replied recently, is here:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f459...ons-98695.html

Will let the dust settle and check in later today. One thing to note ASAP -- you will not be able to pull this off without the furnace functioning perfectly and constantly. Your 3 tanks [water/grey/black] and all the plumbing buried under the floor depend absolutely on the heat ducts and/or tank heaters there. Gearing up for propane re-supply is mission-critical IMO.

[Lily&Me]

Stating the obvious, what if there is a power outage or other failure of your electrical system?

Need to be sure backup is in place.

Maggie

[Adventure.AS]

If you park your trailer in one location for a long period of time you can contact a local propane dealer and rent a large propane tank that would last for the season.

[kidjedi]

Remember that when something is labeled "RV," it triples in price. Think about using the strips that are for keeping house gutters from freezing (plus, they're super long for wrapping around pipes and tanks). Also, the thrift store usually has grandma's old heating pads in droves! :-D Just make sure nothing can get hot enough to melt plastc (pex and tanks).



For keeping the wife warm (IMPORTANT!!!), maybe upgrade to two 40 gallon propane tanks. Ours are lasting forever with the Mr. Buddy propane heater we use.

[OTRA15]

FYI -- Two new posts in that other thread. It will be much easier if the discussion stays here in this new dedicated thread IMO.

Peter

Originally Posted by Lindenwood

Thank you guys again for the responses!

I had found a picture that appeared to have the shower mountee on the outside wall, and the floorplan sketch in the manual shows what I think is the symbol for the shower head against that outside wall. Of course, I have no idea if there is an air gap designed into that space for interior air to circulate around the pipes. Or, if that plumbing is even accessible at all.

Originally Posted by majorairhead

To use only electric to heat in winter,

I would think, if doable, the best thing would be to seal/skirt the trailer with the thickest foamboard insulation possible, sealed tight, or straw bales, then provide a safe source of heat underneath.

Maybe a guy could run an electric heater outside and pipe the warm air in to the space under the trailer.

Same around water bib and inbound hose, along with sewer drain lines.

Be ready for a power outage, otherwise, I say it's doable.

[Magnet18]

Alright, let's take this one point at a time

Originally Posted by Lindenwood

While I have asked a few questions in other winter-related threads, I thought this might warrant its own thread since it is kindof a specific discussion topic.

Background:
We will be spending about 180 days a year largely tethered in NM for my job, and will be living full-time in an FC30 FB Bunk. Most of our planned modifications revolve around comfortable full-timing with as few restrictions and caveats as is reasonably possible. Specifically, while I expect to handle most of the technical household chores related to living in an AS, I usually have an extended (multi-month) work trip at least once a year. Especially during winter, I would like to minimize the list of concerns and must-dos that I have to hand to my wife during these periods. Of course, specific to this thread, she would likely travel to warmer areas for much of this time, but that also includes Oklahoma (where our families are), which isn't much warmer.

Sounds like a solid plan

About exactly 1 year ago I was in the exact same situation, planning on buying an airstream and modifying it to live in northern utah for the winter. I was in the analysis phase you are currently in. Turns out I was way overthinking it Some antifreeze down the shower, plastic over the bedroom windows to cut down on draft, and a couple space heaters to help curb propane use were all I really needed. Everything else I've done has just been bonus.


Any reason your wife can't go with you on this work trip? That's what my wife does when I travel for work, and we winterize the airstream while gone. Just a thought.

To the point:
Beyond hasty light bulb riggings, has anyone done semi-permanent electrical heating modifications, across the whole ststem, to keep plumbing warm without the furnace? I've been digging into the idea of using a series of heating pads and tapes mounted in strategic and vulnerable locations to keep the tanks and plumbing from freezing, and it doesn't seem too crazy so far.

For example, tank heating pads I found on etrailer.com use 65 watts each, or (obviously) ~200 watts for the three tanks. Lots of their smaller pads (for elbows and such) use as little as 7.5w each. Even their 50ft heating line (I guess what we call "heat tape?") uses only 300w, and could easily be looped around all the higher-risk plumbing.

Thus, with careful planning I imagine one could use less than 500w of power to keep all the pipes and tanks from freezing (perhaps assuming disconnected from city water). In other words, with less than 5A at 120v, one could easily wire it as a single 120v circuit through a single switch, or even an automatic thermostat, for simple freeze protection.

Yes, one example I know of is bobmiller1 and his 370LE, he installed an ultraheat system. Pictures here http://www.airforums.com/forums/f311...155661-35.html

I have the pads installed... I just haven't gotten around to wiring them up, as I haven't really needed them!

The heaters are 12V (backup in case of power loss) and the tank heater pads have thermostats built in.

He also installed a 120 underfloor heating system from warmly-yours, which you may not need in your trailer as you have a bellypan (my motorhome does not, nothing between my feet and the outside world but a piece of plywood). In your case, you might be able to use it as your primary heat source.

The ultimate goal would be to avoid having to refill propane tanks every 3 days during winter cold snaps while connected to shore power. Of course, this assumes strategic use of space heaters, heated bed pads, and fleece robes / slippers as required.

I use less propane than expected. In my full time winter use, a 40lb tank has been lasting about 2 weeks or so on average. You'll find you only use the furnace at night or when it's really cloudy, airstreams make great greenhouses if you orient yourself correctly.
A few weeks ago my daytime high was -10F... the furnace didn't kick on once, and I think I even turned a space heater off, just because it was sunny. 1000W/sq meter. I've had days where it's below freezing outside and I open the windows and fantastic fan! If you can't run both AC units, you'll want that mod.

Heated blanket was an excellent buy, and good slippers are a must.

the water heater is the biggest propane hog, moreso than the furnace, make sure to leave it on electric only.

Some additional thoughts:

1) Heating an external water hose sounds much more difficult and power-intensive, so we would probably be okay with disconnecting the city water inlet during winter and simply filling the fresh tank every few days.

https://www.amazon.com/Pirit-PWL-03-...f48274cf997c2f

supposedly good to 0F, but I just fill my fresh tank every other day. Builds my character, or something

2) I have also been digging into other options, like spare propane tanks in the truck. For day-to-day living, the above-described electric solution seems physically safer, easier, and much simpler than having her switch out trailer tanks twice a week (if relying primarily on the furnace for heat), even if she could theoretically go longer intervals without actually taking them for filling.

Again, not sure where you're getting this 2x per week number. you get two 30 lb tanks, those will last weeks, and changing over tanks isn't dangerous or difficult. As someone else said, if you're stationary, look into renting a stationary tank which will last months, and they will come fill it for you/her.

3) I imagine this system might only supplement the furnace, rather than completely replace it. Still, having to move a single 30lb tank perhaps 2 or 3 times while I'm gone, rather than 20 or 30 times, should be a lot more managable for her.

Your proposed electric system is for keeping things warm that the furnace does not provide for. Regardless of propane use, looking your plumbing over and identifying places that are high likelihood of freezing, and very hard to get to if something bursts, and putting 12V heaters there is a good idea.

4) I think I could probably pull this whole thing off for maybe $500. If it works, it might save $100/mo on propane during winter, and generally obviates the purchase of maybe 2 or 3 additional $50lb tanks. Of course, the project has little to do with money, but I thought it worth mentioning.

your 12V ultraheat system will be about $500 to install, yes. A 120V underfloor system will set you back about a grand.

Whew! Long read, I know. But, I figure the more I get our now, the more accurate your assessments! Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Other thoughts-
You seem to know exactly what trailer you will be buying. Is it something a family or friend currently owns? If you have access now, being able to look it over or use it for a night or two is very valuable. If not, why that model?

You are drastically overestimating your propane usage. A thousand miles north of you, I run 2 simple space heaters, and have my thermostat usually set at 75, with no bellypan or underfloor insulation, and I use about 80-90lbs per month. At one point in this post you estimate your usage during a cold snap to be 90lbs per week, which is enough to keep an airstream a sauna in the arctic circle.


Overall you're on the right track, some strategic electric heaters to keep things from freezing that are in the unheated nooks and crannies. You're doing exactly what I did a year ago, over-analyzing it to death

[OTRA15]

I believe this is the floor plan of the FC30 FB Bunk under discussion:

https://www.airstream.com/travel-tra...ans/30fb-bunk/

Lindenwood, is this correct?

Thanks,

Peter

[Lindenwood]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

An excellent idea to start a new dedicated thread. Well done.

Peter

PS -- The Winter Modifications thread, where I replied recently, is here:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f459...ons-98695.html

Will let the dust settle and check in later today. One thing to note ASAP -- you will not be able to pull this off without the furnace functioning perfectly and constantly. Your 3 tanks [water/grey/black] and all the plumbing buried under the floor depend absolutely on the heat ducts and/or tank heaters there. Gearing up for propane re-supply is mission-critical IMO.

Thanks!

Are you saying that a heating pad applied directly to the bottom of each tank, and heating elements carefully applied to the under-floor plumbing, would not be sufficient to prevent freezing? Perhaps that not all of the under-floor plumbing is even accessible without significant disassembly?

Or are you just ensuring I understand there is a difference between simply putting a heater on under-sink plumbing, and crawling under the trailer and removing belly pans to wire in heating elements?

Originally Posted by Lily&Me

Stating the obvious, what if there is a power outage or other failure of your electrical system?

Need to be sure backup is in place.

Maggie

Absolutely! We would never want to rely solely on shore power, and will always have propane available for complete furnace function, even if only for several days. That said, one of the first intended mods will be a pretty substantial solar/inverter-charger/lithium setup with a 1600w (continuous) generator. Starting with a full generator tank, this should theoretically give us about 13,000 total watt-hours of emergency power after dark (taking the lithium battery bank down to 20%, and not going out to refill the generator at midnight). It wouldnt be great, but if we were out of propane we should still be able to keep the pipes and beds warm, plus maybe a couple 400w space heaters, all night.

Of course, in such a case Id prefer to just use the furnace, at least set to a modest temp like 60 degrees, and supplement interior comfort with heated bed pads and warm robes. And, as you said, if I have some significant trailer fault that prevents me from running those heaters (yet still allows the furnace to function?), we'd certainly use the furnace as designed. Worst case, we sleep in the truck, heh.

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

If you park your trailer in one location for a long period of time you can contact a local propane dealer and rent a large propane tank that would last for the season.

Honestly, I have considered something like this. However, even when I am home, we still expect to spend probably 4-8 days per month on road trips, with at least 2 or 3 ~10day trips spaced in there. So, that probably prevents me from leaving a dedicated tank on the ground, which takes me back to portable tanks.

In any case, if I happen to be home during winter, I don't expect we'd be nearly as troubled to keep up with twice-weekly propane swaps between the two of us. And, if I am gone in the winter, I dont think she would stay put long enough in any one spot (especially not the city where I'd work) to warrant a fixed tank.


Thanks again, everyone! Please keep poking at any holes you see!

[Lindenwood]

Magnet18,

Hrmm. I have read several anecdotes that seem to indicate about 10lb per day as a good rule of thumb for folks planning on overnight lows in the teens and twenties with full facilities. But, if I am looking at more like 3lb per day like you say, then I'd certainly avoid all the described heating mods! With a single spare 30lb tank (so we could run down two before filling), that gives us perhaps 3 weeks between fills, which is way more reasonable.

I have a budget spreadsheet that goes until I am 100 years old, so yeah I do tend to overthink things :P .

Oh, and unfortunately these are definitely solo work trips.

OTRA15, yes that is the floor plan. We are pretty firmly settled on that plan simply because we want two dedicated living spaces. However, we dont have a line on a specific one or anything.

[OTRA15]

I believe your AS will have tank heaters already in place, either 12v electric ones, or specific under-floor heat ducts which are part of your hot air furnace system. Above my pay grade.

Your model [FC30 FB Bunk] is often discussed in the following forum IMO:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f542/

. . . so you could start a new thread there, with a very specific request that folks with the same model comment here with any model-specific suggestions, like the pump location, shower plumbing, tank heaters, etc..

FYI here are some other threads/posts relevant to your specific model: https://www.google.com/search?q=fc30...com&gws_rd=ssl

You could post replies in any thread asking for comments here, but you should [IMO] be very clear about this, and provide a link to this thread.

Good luck,

Peter

[Lindenwood]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

I believe your AS will have tank heaters already in place, either 12v electric ones, or specific under-floor heat ducts which are part of your hot air furnace system. Above my pay grade.

I believe this model uses the under-floor furnance ducts for plumbing!

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Your model [FC30 FB Bunk] is often discussed in the following forum IMO:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f542/

. . . so you could start a new thread there, with a very specific request that folks with the same model comment here with any model-specific suggestions, like the pump location, shower plumbing, tank heaters, etc..

FYI here are some other threads/posts relevant to your specific model: https://www.google.com/search?q=fc30...com&gws_rd=ssl

You could post replies in any thread asking for comments here, but you should [IMO] be very clear about this, and provide a link to this thread.

Good luck,

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links! I might do that to figure out the shower plumbing.

[Glampman]

Good Day from Seattle!

I know I must be missing something that probably disqualifies the following remedy that seems to match the problem as explained.

For less than $250 or so, all in, you can just winterize and re-winterize for ultimate piece of mind. I taught my wife how to do it and it is really simple and fast. About 20 minutes to winterize and 10 minutes to de-winterize.

Bought the oil-less air compressor and accessories from Harbor Frieght and the RV anti freeze for the P-Traps, and toilet is $4 per gallon at Walmart. Maybe need 2 gallons for your size AS. I certainly don't pump that stuff through my drinking supply.

I marked the bypass valves for the water heater and their winter configurations with a sharpie right on the PVC pipe for ease of use.

Admittedly, emptying the water heater presented my wife with some pause, but after she saw it was just unscrewing the nylon "cork" and opening the relief valve, she laughed at the simplicity.

The sad truth for me is that I used to be able to claim that winterizing took a whole Saturday morning and then I could go to Home Depot and play with the tools and still seem productive. After all this my wife is keenly aware of the utter simplicity of the procedure so now l have to find other ways to steal away to do my window shopping.

Cheers!

[Lindenwood]

That actually sounds pretty reasonable! Though, I honestly can't see my wife (and small kid) being excited about flushing with a milk jug of water, even if for one night. Using camp facilities in a non-emergency would almost certainly be a deal-breaker, lol. I do appreciate the thought, and will at the very least practice that routine so we both are confortable doing it during vacations or what-not.

[OTRA15]

This may be the post from Vitaver you were looking for the other day?

Good luck,

Peter

[click on orange arrow in quote to go to that other thread]

Originally Posted by Vitaver

I am running two space heaters, one is the Dyson 09 (which I will return today unless I receive sensible advice to the contrary by a Forum member) and an Utilitech. The Dyson does not have the option to chose between using higher or lower KWh, so not sure what is using. I run an Utilitech and low (has options: off, fan, low heat, high heat) which I believe is takin 750 Wph. Thermostat set at 69F all day. Furnace kicks in and out for a minute or less at the time and ambient themperature reads either 68 or 69. The cold snap started 24 hours ago here in Golden, CO, about -2 outside. My two propane tanks are holding on, no problem there. I have an auto switch regulator and both bottles are open, the first bottle still delivers LPG as the regulator shows green when pointing to either bottle. Placed a heating lamp under the rig last night. No skirt. No film on the windows. Plumbing fully operational until last night when I small leak at the water faucet (city water) creeped up and froze my Camco heated hose: a stalactite of ice had formed at the faucet and I ignored it (lesson learned). Brought the hose indoors to melt the ice and will reinstall, make sure no leaks and will keep gray tank valve open and one faucet at the head dripping at all times to keep the water moving.

As for wall insulation, it is a layered approach, like when we go skiing. IF there is a more efficient (insulating) material out there which will fit on the current space between internal and external skins of our rigs, I hope factory uses it. Even if that was to increase the cost of our units a few bucks, we save it on juice for the furnace/AC/HP, adds comfort and in extreme cases (run out of LPG, power out, etc.) could better protect us inside. The best insulation in windows, plumbing, all around, etc. would be very helpful if adopted by the factory. Another issue present in several postings by various owners, is the shutting of the door in freezing conditions (when it is most needed): mine is closed thanks to a bunge cord stretched from the door handle to the dinnette leg, it won't close otherwise. These are small (but important) details on an otherwise fantastic product AS puts out. I hope they are listening...

[Magnet18]

Originally Posted by Lindenwood

Magnet18,

Hrmm. I have read several anecdotes that seem to indicate about 10lb per day as a good rule of thumb for folks planning on overnight lows in the teens and twenties with full facilities. But, if I am looking at more like 3lb per day like you say, then I'd certainly avoid all the described heating mods! With a single spare 30lb tank (so we could run down two before filling), that gives us perhaps 3 weeks between fills, which is way more reasonable.

I have a budget spreadsheet that goes until I am 100 years old, so yeah I do tend to overthink things :P .

Oh, and unfortunately these are definitely solo work trips.

Not sure who said 10lbs per day. I guess it can vary from rig to rig, but in December (mild) I averaged between 2 and 2.8, and I haven't calculated jan and feb, but we've spent a lot of time in the teens and 20s with a few subzero excursions and it's somewhere between 2.8 and 5 at the highest. I've generally come to expect half a week to a week per 20lb tank and 1-2 weeks from my 40lb tank.

Spreadsheet -hey, me too! Fire goals?

[Shermy1987]

I have done exactly this. It was pretty straight toward.12v heat pads are under each tank and I zip tied gutter heat strips from home depot along all the external plumbing with an extention chord joined to them so I can plug them into an outlet in the bathroom.

We don't have a furnace at all. The coldest it has been is around 15 degrees. We've had no problems at all. As for the water supply. You can purchase heated hoses. When everything is hooked up, it uses about 50 amps a day.

Using a ventless heater and this setup (or electric in a camp ground) our propane use is almost nothing.

[Lindenwood]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

This may be the post from Vitaver you were looking for the other day?

Good luck,

Peter

[click on orange arrow in quote to go to that other thread]

Thanks! I am not sure if that is "the one," but more info is good info!

Originally Posted by Magnet18

Not sure who said 10lbs per day. I guess it can vary from rig to rig, but in December (mild) I averaged between 2 and 2.8, and I haven't calculated jan and feb, but we've spent a lot of time in the teens and 20s with a few subzero excursions and it's somewhere between 2.8 and 5 at the highest. I've generally come to expect half a week to a week per 20lb tank and 1-2 weeks from my 40lb tank.

Spreadsheet -hey, me too! Fire goals?

That great info! What year and size is your AS? I only ask because anecdotes loosely suggest older models have a bit less thermal efficiency. I am not sure where I read the 10lb per day on this forum, and I read it before I started to notice the possible correlation between trailer age and geating requirements. Still, I know I have seen lots of folks talk about replacing 30lb tanks every 3-4 days when the weather gets particularly bad. Maybe they were keeping the trailer really warm?

I started this spreadsheet like 12 years ago as a way to help track how career decisions affected long-term financial growth and stability. It has grown significantly in scope, but it is still mostly a sanity check for bigger financial decisions. I dont have true "Fire" aspirations, if for nothing else because we have a young kid now and I grew up with a dad who worked all the time. Still, it keeps me on track to be able to comfortably retire from my current job before age 50 and go back to teaching high school physics with no regression in quality of life or travel flexibility.

Originally Posted by Shermy1987

I have done exactly this. It was pretty straight toward.12v heat pads are under each tank and I zip tied gutter heat strips from home depot along all the external plumbing with an extention chord joined to them so I can plug them into an outlet in the bathroom.

We don't have a furnace at all. The coldest it has been is around 15 degrees. We've had no problems at all. As for the water supply. You can purchase heated hoses. When everything is hooked up, it uses about 50 amps a day.

Using a ventless heater and this setup (or electric in a camp ground) our propane use is almost nothing.

Great info!

To clarify, is that 50 A-hours, at 120v? So about 6000w-hrs per day, total? Or do you mean it uses 50 Amps constantly (which would be 144,000 watt-hours per day, heh). The difference is significant because our planned solar / lithium setup might actually be able to support the former, heh.

[Shermy1987]

Originally Posted by Lindenwood

Thanks! I am not sure if that is "the one," but more info is good info!



That great info! What year and size is your AS? I only ask because anecdotes loosely suggest older models have a bit less thermal efficiency. I am not sure where I read the 10lb per day on this forum, and I read it before I started to notice the possible correlation between trailer age and geating requirements. Still, I know I have seen lots of folks talk about replacing 30lb tanks every 3-4 days when the weather gets particularly bad. Maybe they were keeping the trailer really warm?

I started this spreadsheet like 12 years ago as a way to help track how career decisions affected long-term financial growth and stability. It has grown significantly in scope, but it is still mostly a sanity check for bigger financial decisions. I dont have true "Fire" aspirations, if for nothing else because we have a young kid now and I grew up with a dad who worked all the time. Still, it keeps me on track to be able to comfortably retire from my current job before age 50 and go back to teaching high school physics with no regression in quality of life or travel flexibility.


Great info!

To clarify, is that 50 A-hours, at 120v? So about 6000w-hrs per day, total? Or do you mean it uses 50 Amps constantly (which would be 144,000 watt-hours per day, heh). The difference is significant because our planned solar / lithium setup might actually be able to support the former, heh.

50 amps measured at my battery over 24 hours. This is an estimate. As the heat pads turn on and off depending on temperature it can vary. Also, I only use the heat cable when it gets really cold or on hookups. When boon docking I generally don't use the heat cables running along the pipes but I make sure my grey tank valve is open and allow the short length of pex that usually freezes to freeze. This length is only in use when hooked to city water so its no big deal.

[Lindenwood]

Originally Posted by Shermy1987

50 amps measured at my battery over 24 hours. This is an estimate. As the heat pads turn on and off depending on temperature it can vary. Also, I only use the heat cable when it gets really cold or on hookups. When boon docking I generally don't use the heat cables running along the pipes but I make sure my grey tank valve is open and allow the short length of pex that usually freezes to freeze. This length is only in use when hooked to city water so its no big deal.

Ah, okay so an average of 50A on a 12v battery, or 600w / 14,400 w-hr. Okay that makes sense! What portion of that do you think is just for the heating pads and pope heating lines?