Winterizing: why not suck out the water at the low point drains?

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by phann

Is there a reason to blow out the lines with air before filling them with AF? I'm wondering if it isn't just as effective to skip the air blowout step and simply pump AF through the lines, opening up each faucet, toilet, etc. one at a time.

Just pumping in AF will not displace the water in the line from the city connection, a dead end leg, and may not fill the hot water bypass valve, one of the most vulnerable items in the system.

[rmatkovich]

As for the little bit of residue in the pipes will not hurt a thing. If U want to put antifreeze in just get the kit from a dealer to hook it up to UR pump and do it. But I can tell U that the air is much quicker and easier. No muss no fuss. Been doing it for many many years and not prob. Chicago area and gets damn cold at times.

[rmatkovich]

U R right The antifreeze will push the water out. When U see the pink stuff come out shut it off and do the next one, no need to use air.

[JCWDCW]

Originally Posted by WherryWillie

However, my issue is blowing air from the city water port, which done per the instructions clearly leaves water in the line.

I don't see where you get this idea from. 40-50 psi will run so much air through the system the only water left is mist and a few droplets that don't make any difference in a freeze-up. You still need to get all the drains including one back near the city water connection on older models or the low leg at the HW tank (in the rear quarter on mt '96). I know that the major Airstream dealer in our area uses air, not antifreeze. If you have the air supply it takes just a bit longer to winterize but it takes days less to return the system to use without the residue of antifreeze. You still have to pour a cup down each drain to protect the traps and a couple of cups in each tank is good protection for the dump valves.
I concur that vacuum will not do as good a job as air pressure, especially if there are sagging pipes and flex line that has a sow belly in it to hold water. The low point drains do not fully drain the system....if they did then there would be little water left to blow out of the taps...experience pretty much says that's not true.
JCW

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

Run out of time? Life is short, it takes maybe 20 minutes to blow out all lines, while drinking coffee, pump the anti freeze in, pour some in each drain...more coffee you're done.

I don't do any of that. Around November 1, I simply hook up the AS drag it down to Florida and don't bring it back until Memorial day.
We stay down there with it of course. :-).

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by WherryWillie

Greetings,
I've read through the owners manual and newbies guide and also applied a few doses of compressed air to the system trying to learn how to drain and winterize. I've gotten alternating opinions from two dealers and three technicians north and south as to the necessity of filling the lines with RV anti-freeze. I've reached these conclusions: the owners manual does not agree with the equipment and arrangement of my 2016 26U. Even among the pros there is considerable disagreement on how to winterize the system.

I ran out of time, hired it done, and had the lines embalmed with RV-AF. But I want to do this myself. To that end I've got two questions I'd like to try out on the forum:
1) If asked, can/will Airstream provide me with an “as built” schematic of my AS for plumbing?
2) Rather than blowing water up and out with a compressor, why not put a wet vacuum on the low-point drain, open the various faucets one at a time, and suck out the system? This seems less likely to leave residual water in the tubes and junctions. But why then does everybody agree on blowing it?
AWCHIEF, on another thread recommended, this video

which confirmed much of what I understood. However, my issue is blowing air from the city water port, which done per the instructions clearly leaves water in the line.

Thanks

When draining the hot water tank, release the pressure first at the upper PRV, then use a 1" six point socket and extension to open the bottom drain.
That way you will not get showered by pressurized water; will not ruin the plastic plug.

Yes, AS will provide a schematic of the water system to you, usually by e-mail.
I have two for my 30' FC. 2016. Just print them off for inclusion to the manual.

[bibbs]

I think vacuuming would work quite well, I did something similar to clear a under ground water line so it could be soldered. I would go around opening and closing the valves several times. And leave it sucking for another 10 minutes with them all open. And of course service the pump and treat the traps to a nice cup of rv antifreeze, I wouldn't want that antifreeze stuff in my water lines ! Never used it when I lived in NY, just blew them out.

[paiceman]

Owners manual for the 2017 Classic says 60# PSI to blow out lines as does the factory. To the OP question, I asked Customer Service for a plumbing schematic of our 2017 Classic and no question email right over. The lady and I spent some time looking at it together in an effort to figure out what one valve was for, we got it, or should I say she got it.

I blow the lines, one faucet at a time, 60# and have done so on three previous AS models we have had. First, use pump to pump all water or as much as possible out of tank, then blow the lines, including hot water tank by opening it's drain valve. Then by pass the tank and as stated open each faucet one at a time, let the compressor go back up to 60# and open another faucet, including outside shower. Then once done pour RV antifreeze down the drains, including toilet. I leave the hot water tank drain valve open until we need it again. Done.

Bud

[JCWDCW]

Originally Posted by Chuck

neither will reach your water pump, which is what these arguments always leave out.

3 times I've had to replace the pressure switch on mine, because a tiny drop of water inside freezes and pushes it away from the pump housing, causing the thin plastic around the connection points to crack.

(first time, I didn't know any better; second time, I procrastinated and didn't winterize in time; 3rd time: well, I dis-assembled the trailer for a complete reno, removed all of the plumbing...but left the pump sitting in the trailer over the winter--it cracked again!).

Maybe this particular pump is just a bad design, because I don't see anyone else grumping about it. But anyway, pumping AF through the lines prevents the problem, because you use the pump to do it. Takes less than 10 minutes and 1 1/2 gallons of AF to do it.

Never had a problem with the water pump after using air, but I always run the pump till it pulls air. Then there isn't enough water in it to freeze without room to expand.
JCW

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by phann

Is there a reason to blow out the lines with air before filling them with AF? I'm wondering if it isn't just as effective to skip the air blowout step and simply pump AF through the lines, opening up each faucet, toilet, etc. one at a time.

I realize you'd still have to drain the water heater, and perhaps run the AF through each line a bit longer - to overcome dilutional effects from the clear water being displaced. But other than that, wouldn't this method work just as well?

By blowing out the lines, you are getting rid of a lot of water, meaning that you will need less A.F. to waste diluting it.
Every little bit helps with the long result.

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by paiceman

Owners manual for the 2017 Classic says 60# PSI to blow out lines as does the factory. To the OP question, I asked Customer Service for a plumbing schematic of our 2017 Classic and no question email right over. The lady and I spent some time looking at it together in an effort to figure out what one valve was for, we got it, or should I say she got it.

I blow the lines, one faucet at a time, 60# and have done so on three previous AS models we have had. First, use pump to pump all water or as much as possible out of tank, then blow the lines, including hot water tank by opening it's drain valve. Then by pass the tank and as stated open each faucet one at a time, let the compressor go back up to 60# and open another faucet, including outside shower. Then once done pour RV antifreeze down the drains, including toilet. I leave the hot water tank drain valve open until we need it again. Done

Bud

If you leave your hot water tank drain valve open you can collect bugs in there. I keep mine closed.

[mefly2]

Originally Posted by Baronronski

I have a new airstream, and live in Seattle, weather not frigid up here, is it necessary to winterize it..??

We bought a new AS from AANW in Seattle. It had been winterized; however, we had to replace the valve on the commode due to freezing... is it worth the risk to not winterize ... only you can answer that question. The water - even in relatively small amounts - can wreak havoc. Remember that water expands / contracts at 32 +/- 1 degree...that's when the damage occurs; not at 20 below zero.

Replacing the WH drain plug and adding a petcock (~$5 at Ace) to the water heater drain simplifies the annual winterization... and on our unit - also saves some skinned knuckles.

[overlander63]

Twice now, I've blown out the pipes, and twice had water freeze damage from water that was tiny droplets, and all managed to collect in the lowest point of the system. Which also happened to be a part that would break when frozen.
I don't blow it out, and run antifreeze through the system, then dump the remainder down the drains. No plumbing leaks when I've done it this way.
Oh, I also winterize all the trailers on the lot, over a hundred, using this method, as well as several hundred customer trailers, and have never had or heard of an issue.

[TG Twinkie]

I just pump anti freeze in to displace the water. Making sure the city water, outside shower, and black tank flush have AF as well. Also make sure to open low point drains for a short period until I see AF come out.
The price of AF is relatively cheap. $2.50 a gallon here. I would rather spend $10 on AF than spend several times that on plumbing repairs.
Don't forget the toilet and P traps.
I drain the FW tank and put at least 1/2 gallon in the BW and GW tanks to keep the dump valves lubed.
We live where it gets to -40F and so far no problems in 10 years.

[dkrug]

We do the air pressure plus A/F with one additional step.
After seeing A/F coming out of all the faucets & toilet , blow the lines with air again to minimize foul taste in the spring. I only forgot the flush valve once

[featherbedder]

I haven't winterized since 1991, [built heated machine shed], back in close doors till next spring. Before always blew lines then, when rv anti freeze came on market, blew lines and water heater then bypassed then pumped af put cup full in drains. Have never have frozen any thing yet

[WherryWillie]

Many thanks for the advice. I'm a couple months from putting into practice, as noted, I had a dealer do it and it is indoors, but unheated storage. I will understand that it is when it first freezes that water-come-ice does its worst. We can expect a spell of at least minus twenty in northern Wisconsin and every last drop will freeze.

We'll take a late winter trip and return in April, and I expect I'll have winterize again. I know I'll put RV-AF in the pump and everything downstream of the drains. I blow and suck a few cycles and if it seems dry, maybe I'll leave it at that. Either way, I'll start my next trip with the FW and domestic lines soaked in pink. If I might go back to the well for a second question: how do you flush that stuff out of the system?

I participated in the thread regarding dumping gray water and expressed the opinion you should not spread that on the ground. But how about "pink water?" Does it need to go down a dump out drain, or can it go on the ground? I treat my hot-tub with about three gallons that I flush with about 500 gallons (literally, I fill and empty the tub) into the bushes. I cannot quite picture how I'm going to run that much water through this system without burning up my water pump, and where to put the water as it comes out.
Thanks,

[2012FB]

We trailer in and out of cold a lot. I fill a five gallon soft pail at the office with RV antifreeze and put it in the back of the truck when trailering. Heading back to the cold or last use before winter I pop the drawer face put the pipe in the pail, flip the pump on and run all the faucets, toilet, showers including the one out side. Leave the sink faucet cracked open and with the pump running pull the pipe then turn the pump off. Takes five minutes max. Never ever had an issue.


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[pcskier]

This year after draining the fresh tank, water heater and low points, I pumped antifreeze through the system via the water pump till completely pink at all fixtures, with a cup or two in each trap. This thread has me concerned about the city water connection since I didn't use compressed air first. I figured any water there would drain through to the system and low points. Is there water that remains somewhere in the city water connection unless it's blown out? Would pouring antifreeze into the connection handle it? Mine is in storage and I'd have to get it and bring it home to blow it out. (2014 FC)

[OTRA15]

Yes, some water might remain in the water inlet/regulator, and using air there would be advisable IMO. Make sure all your faucets are closed, hook up the air to the water inlet hose connection, and briefly open the cold water faucet closest to the water inlet air hose connection. [2-3 seconds should do it IMO]

Having all the water lines full of AF is so overkill on winterization that the above will have little appreciable effect on diluting the AF.

I think the water regulator will prevent pouring AF into the water inlet, but your owners manual may cover this?

PS -- max 30 lbs. PSI on the air to be conservative.

PS2 -- when you took the pump/filter apart per owner's manual, did you blow back (by mouth) into the water supply line coming from the tank? In some models there can be a low point in that line which retains small amounts of water which the AF never reaches (unless you put AF in the tank and pump it up from there).