My tanks are frozen

[WhidbeyGurl]

I took my trailer in for service winterized and they returned it to me with full water tanks without my asking them to do that. They also changed out the propane tanks and replaced them with empty ones unbeknownst to me. So I turned the furnace on before going out of town for a few days to prevent it from freezing up and I thought it was running but it was actually just blowing cold air


I got back home from spending christmas with my family and the whole thing is frozen up. Such a bummer. I'm still learning my way around my trailer!



I filled the propane tanks about an hour ago and cranked the heat up to 80. I have the kitchen and bathroom faucets open. How long do you think it'll take to thaw out (it's about 20 degrees outside but will probably drop to around 15 overnight)? Will one 7 gallon propane tank make it through the night or should I switch the supply to the second tank? Is there anything else I should do? What do you think the odds are that I'll have burst pipes or other damage?



Thanks in advance for any advice, I'm really worried this is going to be an expensive headache!

[Daquenzer]

WHAT!!! I would not let them get by with that nonsense!! I would be made as ….

It is going to take an awful lot of propane to warm those tanks; especially if the AS is outside. You will easily go through an LP tank in a few days; maybe sooner if you keep it at 80. I might get an extra tank for a reserve. But I have no idea how long that would take, because that’s a lot of water mass if frozen solid. Hope they didn’t turn on the water as well to test it! Did you blow things out just in case? And what about the hot water heater? Sounds like this place could be in for a significant insurance claim if things freeze up for you. Yikes. Sorry to hear this.

I would definitely try to blow it out to see if air goes through the system. If it doesn’t it could be problematic. Was their water in the toilet?

I would try and keep the bottom of your AS from letting wind blow underneath. Hay bales or something.

I wonder if you could pull it into a heated garage some place over night and see what happens. The biggest issue is the wind chill underneath that take away any ambient heat. Even putting it in a pole barn and having a window open would be better than outside. You could run the furnace in a pole barn with the window or doors open. Don’t do that without some fresh air though!!

[uraljohn]

Have you contacted the company that serviced your AS? The furnace will not run blowing cold air if there is no propane. It will attempt to light only a few times then not try again.

This may wind up being very, very $$$$$.

Now that you do have the furnace running it will burn a bunch of propane in a short time so monitor your propane tanks. Your trailer should have an automatic switch over when one tank runs dry. Fill both tanks, hook them up, open both tank valves. The regulator should have some sort of arrow on the tank choice knob to indicate which tank is being emptied first.

More than likely there is some damage from frozen lines or holding tanks. Good luck.

[GCinSC2]

WhidbeyGurl,

First welcome to Airforums.

Second, what a rough start. I don't know how long the propane will last but opening all cabinet doors to allow heat to circulate might help. I don't think leaving the faucets on and unattended will help. Just check for flow later when you return.

Take good notes, any pics that might help and talk to the OWNER of the service facility and hold their feet to the fire if applicable.

Good luck,

Gary

[McStreamy_]

Holy cow! Sorry that happened to you. I'd absolutely call the manager of wherever you had service at and put this on their radar.

Is your trailer connected to shore power? A ceramic heater or two will help limit your propane burn while keeping things warm. With the temperatures you're expecting you'll go through propane rather quickly. And without shore power your batteries will likely not last long since the furnace is a battery hog.

[WhidbeyGurl]

Thanks so much for the replies! I don't have anywhere I can move it inside. There's also snow on the ground and my electric gate is frozen shut so there's no towing it anywhere. At least it isn't windy.



I read that opening the faucets allows the water to escape as it thaws so that was why I did that. Should I close them then? I'm not sure if there was water in the toilet. Ugh I'm so sick over this. Everything was tip top and who knows what kind of damage I'm looking at now. I'm scared for the ice to melt, could be looking at an interior flood.



I took it to the dealership in Milton, WA where I purchased it. The whole experience was exceptionally bad. I also don't know why they would return it to me with full water tanks and empty propane when I dropped it off with full propane and empty water tanks!!


I think that the thermostat was set to auto (60 degrees). I could hear it running when I left and it was still running when I returned but clearly it wasn't giving off any heat. We have another week of snow and cold temperatures ahead so I have four full propane tanks sitting here now, I just don't know what I'm going to do if it floods.

[WhidbeyGurl]

Thanks. In addition to the four full propane tanks I have it connected to shore power and also have solar panels on top so hopefully I won't need to use a space heater?

[GCinSC2]

Might want to double check the T-stat control position. I'd take it off of AUTO and select FURNACE or how ever it's labeled just to make sure your on gas heat and nothing from the AC system.

These gas furnaces are pretty decent when they run and when running you will hear the fan and feel heat at the outlets. You can also go outside and feel heat at the furnace exhaust. If no heat can you open the outside furnace door and (assuming it's similar to mine and many others) it has an inner door, pull that down too and look for a small red light. If it's flashing just count the flashes 1 2 3 pause 1 2 3 sorta stuff. Then get the model info on furnace and find you manual and you can get the fault codes.

The concern I'd have with leaving faucets on is if you are connected to city water and leave and then a faucet thaws out you MIGHT fill the grey tank before noticing and creating new big problems.

Keep communicating.

Gary

[WhidbeyGurl]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Might want to double check the T-stat control position. I'd take it off of AUTO and select FURNACE or how ever it's labeled just to make sure your on gas heat and nothing from the AC system.

These gas furnaces are pretty decent when they run and when running you will hear the fan and feel heat at the outlets. You can also go outside and feel heat at the furnace exhaust. If no heat can you open the outside furnace door and (assuming it's similar to mine and many others) it has an inner door, pull that down too and look for a small red light. If it's flashing just count the flashes 1 2 3 pause 1 2 3 sorta stuff. Then get the model info on furnace and find you manual and you can get the fault codes.

The concern I'd have with leaving faucets on is if you are connected to city water and leave and then a faucet thaws out you MIGHT fill the grey tank before noticing and creating new big problems.

Keep communicating.

Gary

Thanks Gary,


I'll let you all know what happens. It's switched to furnace now. I'm going to be running out there every hour to check on it and see what happens. I'm pretty sure they filled the tanks as part of the multi point inspection so chances are they ran all of the fixtures. The shower hose is solid ice inside, completely stiff. I wish they would've asked me how I'd like it returned to me. I kept it winterized for a reason! There was zero communication and I didn't notice until it was too late.


How expensive do you think this could be? In situations like this is there a chance it could turn out fine? Serenity now!!!!

[bweybright]

So you know, the dealer you went to is a huge outfit with multiple locations in many states, plus a custom fabrication facility.....so they have very deep pockets to rectify the damage that may have been caused. This is all assuming all things are as state thus far. They are an absolutely huge dealer and should know better. FYI, the rumored best facility they have for repairs is in Boise. Good luck with the mess. Keep in mind, that if it is as you stated you did nothing wrong and are not responsible.

[InsideOut]

Wow! When did you have it serviced? "Days" or "weeks" before your trip and your recognizing the issue. Not that it really matters, but the more recent I would think the better the chance of them taking ownership of their fault.

If it is indeed "frozen solid" most likely & unfortunately, any freeze damage is already done - no sense in panicking. Unless you can completely thaw it out (drive south) partially thawing & re-freezing can potentially make things worse.

I would look into seeing if you can take it back to the service center (once you get your gate is freed up) and let (make!) them store it in their shop to thaw out, then assess and fix the damages.

What a bummer! Good luck ~

Shari

[WhidbeyGurl]

Originally Posted by InsideOut

Wow! When did you have it serviced? "Days" or "weeks" before your trip and your recognizing the issue. Not that it really matters, but the more recent I would think the better the chance of them taking ownership of their fault.

Most likely & unfortunately, any freeze damage is already done - no sense in panicking. Unless you can completely thaw it out (drive south) partially thawing & re-freezing can potentially make things worse.

I would look into seeing if you can take it back to the service center (once you get your gate is freed up) and let (make!) them store it in their shop to thaw out & assess and fix the damages.

What a bummer! Good luck ~

Shari

Thanks Shari. It's been a couple of months, I just didn't notice because I'm not using it right now. I dropped it off winterized so it didn't occur to me that they'd return it to me full. Then, when I noticed I figured I could prevent freezing by turning on the heat until I could take it back in. But they put empty propane tanks in when they replaced them and I didn't notice that either. I'm so mad at myself, I should've been way more on top of it. I guess sometimes you have to learn the hard way. Double check everything!

[Daquenzer]

Originally Posted by WhidbeyGurl

I'm so mad at myself, I should've been way more on top of it. I guess sometimes you have to learn the hard way. Double check everything!

This isn’t your fault. I surely wouldn’t have thought about double checking. I mean how would you even know? This is so egregious. But I do agree with the idea of maybe driving it back to the dealer and having them take responsibility. I might even consult with a lawyer to check out how to legally hold them responsible should they push back or at least how to have your ducks in a row. You will surely have a small claims suit. You will probably spend a few hundred just in propane if you try to keep it heated to thaw things out. And who knows what else. The propane is small potatoes compared to other possible damage. Don’t let them off the hook.

I surely hope it is just the cost of propane for your sake.

[bweybright]

To help us better understand. What service did you have them do? Curious as to what would have them take your propane tanks off. I would be surprised if they switched them out for empties.....more likely the heater was turned on and drained them over the past couple of months since you got it back from service? Providing a bit more information will help all give you better advice. Thank you!!! And, good luck - the cold we are getting in this neck of the woods this week is not something we are all built for out here.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

The concern I'd have with leaving faucets on is if you are connected to city water and leave and then a faucet thaws out you MIGHT fill the grey tank before noticing and creating new big problems.

Keep communicating.

Gary

Well if city water is hooked up it would be ignorant to put any blame on the dealer, since that would mean that it was dewinterized at the house not the dealer.

So make sure pump is off and no hose hooked up and the only source of more then 1 gallon of water inside the trailer would be the water heater.

[WhidbeyGurl]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

This isn’t your fault. I surely wouldn’t have thought about double checking. I mean how would you even know? This is so egregious. But I do agree with the idea of maybe driving it back to the dealer and having them take responsibility. I might even consult with a lawyer to check out how to legally hold them responsible should they push back or at least how to have your ducks in a row. You will surely have a small claims suit. You will probably spend a few hundred just in propane if you try to keep it heated to thaw things out. And who knows what else. Don’t let them off the hook.

I surely hope it is just the cost of propane for your sake.

Thanks for that, I hate confrontation, I just hope by some miracle the damage isn't too bad (that's still possible right?) and they'll be decent about working with me to get things resolved. If the damage is extreme then I'll take your advice and talk to an attorney. The waiting is killing me, my fingers are crossed! I just checked on it and there's no change so far but it's nice and toasty inside now so the ice should be slowly thawing.

[WhidbeyGurl]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

Well if city water is hooked up it would be ignorant to put any blame on the dealer, since that would mean that it was dewinterized at the house not the dealer.

So make sure pump is off and no hose hooked up and the only source of more then 1 gallon of water inside the trailer would be the water heater.

It's never been connected to city water. I haven't used it since I picked it up.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by WhidbeyGurl

It's never been connected to city water. I haven't used it since I picked it up.

That's good the pipes hold about 1 gallon of water and the water heater holds 6 gallons so that is the limit of flooding.

There was an Airsteam in a campground here in NJ the had the city water hose left connected in a seasonal site after the owner last used it 5 years before he died then his son went to start using it and said it had no damage. So either it is possible to not winterize and have no damage or the hose was reconnected for some idiotic reason after it was winterized.

[GetawA-S]

Wow. Tough place to be, especially with all the other stresses of the winter weather.
For now: shore power can provide heat more reliably than propane, so set up a unit heater. If you have a heat pump, it may not be effective at low temperatures. A heat strip will be, but won’t do much to warm the tank enclosures, and uses about the same juice as a unit heater. Trying to run both might trip your house or storage breaker.
Faced with a claim, the dealer may not see this as clear-cut as your fellow Airforumers. Were your propane tanks marked, so you can prove they were switched and not run out because some appliance was left on? Had you posted stickers indicating the system was winterized? Did the service (multipoint) require the addition of water, and did you ask if it had been re-winterized? Many techs are stuck in the pre-climate change past, as in “The Sound never sees serious freezing weather.”
I’m not saying the dealer has no responsibility, but there are things we all can do to lessen the likelihood of a similar situation, and improve the odds of recourse if necessary.
A final note: PEX plumbing is more forgiving than previous materials, but valves are not so much. Test everything once you get everything thawed.
Good luck!

[WhidbeyGurl]

Originally Posted by bweybright

To help us better understand. What service did you have them do? Curious as to what would have them take your propane tanks off. I would be surprised if they switched them out for empties.....more likely the heater was turned on and drained them over the past couple of months since you got it back from service? Providing a bit more information will help all give you better advice. Thank you!!! And, good luck - the cold we are getting in this neck of the woods this week is not something we are all built for out here.

We definitely aren't used to it around here! I had a broken window that needed to be replaced, then a multi point inspection done and they said that the propane tanks needed to be replaced along with some other things that they found. I haven't used heat or connected it to water since I got it back. I only turned on the heat on Christmas eve because a cold front was coming in and I only had the valve open on one tank. Today when I was trying to figure out why the heat wasn't working I checked the tanks they were both empty. They definitely put new empty propane tanks in.


When I brought it home the interior lights stopped working. I was trying to get the storage compartments organized, and they wouldn't turn on when it was connected to shore. The converter switch (I think that's what it's called) burned up due to a loose wire, and I had a local electrician order it for me and replace it so I wasn't too impressed with the multi point inspection either.


I also asked them to give me the receipt for the window on a separate invoice because my insurance covers that. They couldn't find the receipt (do they not have them stored on a computer?) so I never got it and had to pay close to $1000 out of pocket for that.



Just overall a really bad experience.