Learned a lot from traveling in sub freezing temp with unwinterized trailer

[Atsushi]

We traveled to SC from NJ and back this holiday season, and we made some mistakes. Very fortunately, there seems to be no damage sustained so far, but I would like to share my mistakes here.

I had thought that running the furnace at 45 would keep the plumbing from freezing. It didn't.

Using a space heater for comfort is not a good idea when outside temperature is in 20s. Plus, the furnace won't kick in because the inside temperature is in 60s.

Low point drains and valves were the first to freeze. So we couldn't drain the plumbing nor could we put AF from city water inlet with manual pump when we did realize we have to winterize.

We couldn't drain water heater either because drain was frozen (I don't think it was frozen solid; it was just frozen near the drain plug where it was closest to the outside world).

We were able to put AF via water pump to bathroom sink and toilet. But not shower or kitchen sink because plumbing must have gotten frozen between toilet and shower. This does puzzle me because when the furnace was on, bathroom was pretty warm--it seemed like the least likely place for freezing.

We drove 5 hours to get home yesterday and outside temperature was 3F~15F for the whole time. We did keep the furnace at 60F, hoping that it would slow the progress of freezing (It sort of did).

As soon as we got home and got shore power, we crank up the furnace to 75F.

We removed mattress and opened cabinet doors so that the hot air could reach frozen plumbing. It did.

We couldn't drain the fresh water tank because drain valve was frozen. So we used outside shower to drain it (outside shower had been winterized earlier and was never de-winterized).

We turned on water heater and that thaw the ice inside pretty quickly, so we could drain it.


Valves for black and grey water tanks were frozen. Both were about 10%. We decided to wait for them to thaw on their own (We didn't want to force the valves open and break them). At the worst case scenario, this part of plumbing may need to be replaced. But looking at how thick and robust the pluming looks down there, I'm optimistic that all we have to do is to dump the content when it gets warmer.

We circulated AF by water pump and after plumbing thawed out, AF reached shower and kitchen sink. We put AF in outside shower too because we used it to drain fresh water tank.

With plumbing system pressurized, we looked for evidence of leak, and we found none....although we did hear water pump running for 0.5 second when we were not using water several times when we were camping. I'm wondering if that indicates a slow leak somewhere we couldn't see. If so, I think it's a very very slow leak.

Going forward, I swear to myself that I would never travel unwinterized if there is a possibility of temperature going below freezing. I was hubris this time, thinking I could winterize at a rest stop somewhere. I didn't realize that crucial places, such as lowest drains, city water inlet and water heater plug are the first places to get frozen. With these places frozen and with just battery power alone, there is not much we can do to winterize.

I hope other beginners can learn from my mistakes.


Safe travel!

[glcmranger]

Thanks for all the "Lessons Learned" synopsis. I'll share too: I DID winterize before traveling south to Canopener Rally. At a truck stop, I noticed the AF was frozen in the Toilet bowl and slush coming out of the Kitchen faucet. I quickly turned on the furnace to 45 degrees, opened up cabinets, and continued down the road. Once I got to Florida (still freezing), I turned on the Water Pump, using a gallon of AF, to pressurize the system and look for leaks --- found one. A continuous drip with the Kitchen faucet. It seems a plastic piece cracked inside the hot/cold section of the handle. No worries -- waiting for Amazon to deliver an EXPENSIVE foreign-made faucet here at Canopener. Every time I pressurize via water pump,,,,, It drives me nuts of the continuous drip....... It could have been worse! Like you, I've never traveled before in such cold temperatures ---- AND I WAS WINTERIZED! Don't let the advertising on the AF bottle fool you --- It's rated to -50 degrees from expansion inside pipes but still can turn to slush....... I should have blown out the lines first and THEN used AF. Lessons Learned!!

[Silverpuller]

Originally Posted by glcmranger

Thanks for all the "Lessons Learned" synopsis. I'll share too: I DID winterize before traveling south to Canopener Rally. At a truck stop, I noticed the AF was frozen in the Toilet bowl and slush coming out of the Kitchen faucet. I quickly turned on the furnace to 45 degrees, opened up cabinets, and continued down the road. Once I got to Florida (still freezing), I turned on the Water Pump, using a gallon of AF, to pressurize the system and look for leaks --- found one. A continuous drip with the Kitchen faucet. It seems a plastic piece cracked inside the hot/cold section of the handle. No worries -- waiting for Amazon to deliver an EXPENSIVE foreign-made faucet here at Canopener. Every time I pressurize via water pump,,,,, It drives me nuts of the continuous drip....... It could have been worse! Like you, I've never traveled before in such cold temperatures ---- AND I WAS WINTERIZED! Don't let the advertising on the AF bottle fool you --- It's rated to -50 degrees from expansion inside pipes but still can turn to slush....... I should have blown out the lines first and THEN used AF. Lessons Learned!!

Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ve never towed our trailer in winter, but won’t rule out the possibility. We have seriously considered a winter campout at Yosemite, and will keep your experience in mind.

[majorairhead]

Ya, I appreciate the info in this thread. I've winterized twice, each time blowing out the lines and then running antifreeze through the entire system.....I like seeing pink coming out of everywhere!

[OTRA15]

Thank you for the candid assessment and report, and for your awareness of the state of mind which led to your troubles.

Originally Posted by Atsushi

. . .
. . . hubris this time . . .
. . .

A mature way to start out the New Year IMO.

Happy Trails in 2018!

Peter

[turk123]

Originally Posted by glcmranger

Thanks for all the "Lessons Learned" synopsis. I'll share too: I DID winterize before traveling south to Canopener Rally. At a truck stop, I noticed the AF was frozen in the Toilet bowl and slush coming out of the Kitchen faucet. I quickly turned on the furnace to 45 degrees, opened up cabinets, and continued down the road. Once I got to Florida (still freezing), I turned on the Water Pump, using a gallon of AF, to pressurize the system and look for leaks --- found one. A continuous drip with the Kitchen faucet. It seems a plastic piece cracked inside the hot/cold section of the handle. No worries -- waiting for Amazon to deliver an EXPENSIVE foreign-made faucet here at Canopener. Every time I pressurize via water pump,,,,, It drives me nuts of the continuous drip....... It could have been worse! Like you, I've never traveled before in such cold temperatures ---- AND I WAS WINTERIZED! Don't let the advertising on the AF bottle fool you --- It's rated to -50 degrees from expansion inside pipes but still can turn to slush....... I should have blown out the lines first and THEN used AF. Lessons Learned!!

The antifreeze is designed to turn to slush. The important point is that the slush does not expand.

[Sophiehaus]

Originally Posted by Atsushi

We traveled to SC from NJ and back this holiday season, and we made some mistakes. Very fortunately, there seems to be no damage sustained so far, but I would like to share my mistakes here.

I had thought that running the furnace at 45 would keep the plumbing from freezing. It didn't.

Using a space heater for comfort is not a good idea when outside temperature is in 20s. Plus, the furnace won't kick in because the inside temperature is in 60s.

Low point drains and valves were the first to freeze. So we couldn't drain the plumbing nor could we put AF from city water inlet with manual pump when we did realize we have to winterize.

We couldn't drain water heater either because drain was frozen (I don't think it was frozen solid; it was just frozen near the drain plug where it was closest to the outside world).

We were able to put AF via water pump to bathroom sink and toilet. But not shower or kitchen sink because plumbing must have gotten frozen between toilet and shower. This does puzzle me because when the furnace was on, bathroom was pretty warm--it seemed like the least likely place for freezing.

We drove 5 hours to get home yesterday and outside temperature was 3F~15F for the whole time. We did keep the furnace at 60F, hoping that it would slow the progress of freezing (It sort of did).

As soon as we got home and got shore power, we crank up the furnace to 75F.

We removed mattress and opened cabinet doors so that the hot air could reach frozen plumbing. It did.

We couldn't drain the fresh water tank because drain valve was frozen. So we used outside shower to drain it (outside shower had been winterized earlier and was never de-winterized).

We turned on water heater and that thaw the ice inside pretty quickly, so we could drain it.


Valves for black and grey water tanks were frozen. Both were about 10%. We decided to wait for them to thaw on their own (We didn't want to force the valves open and break them). At the worst case scenario, this part of plumbing may need to be replaced. But looking at how thick and robust the pluming looks down there, I'm optimistic that all we have to do is to dump the content when it gets warmer.

We circulated AF by water pump and after plumbing thawed out, AF reached shower and kitchen sink. We put AF in outside shower too because we used it to drain fresh water tank.

With plumbing system pressurized, we looked for evidence of leak, and we found none....although we did hear water pump running for 0.5 second when we were not using water several times when we were camping. I'm wondering if that indicates a slow leak somewhere we couldn't see. If so, I think it's a very very slow leak.

Going forward, I swear to myself that I would never travel unwinterized if there is a possibility of temperature going below freezing. I was hubris this time, thinking I could winterize at a rest stop somewhere. I didn't realize that crucial places, such as lowest drains, city water inlet and water heater plug are the first places to get frozen. With these places frozen and with just battery power alone, there is not much we can do to winterize.

I hope other beginners can learn from my mistakes.


Safe travel!

I travel with water in freezing temperatures. I keep the heat on 65+ degrees. I don’t always turn on the water heater, but the heater ducks should keep the water heater from freezing. I do put one gallon of RV antifreeze in both the black and gray water tanks. This protects the outside drain valves from freezing. I have never had a problem when I take these precautions. I always monitor the propane tanks, because I go through a lot of it under these severe conditions.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Atsushi

Using a space heater for comfort is not a good idea when outside temperature is in 20s. Plus, the furnace won't kick in because the inside temperature is in 60s.

Why?
I'm thinking of adding a small ceramic heater for colder days and nights.

[Atsushi]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Why?
I'm thinking of adding a small ceramic heater for colder days and nights.

Because the temperature sensor (thermostat) thinks it doesn't have to turn on the furnace.

[canman1]

Why not just turn up (way up) the furnace thermostat ?

[banderabob]

Good comments. I flat forgot about my outside shower, and simply hope that gravity took it down to the lower lines. We'll find out soon!

[pmclemore]

Sounds like you dodged a bullet - but like you, it would have scared the snot out of me, atsushi.

Some folks may not like the analogy - but going unwinterized is a little like drinking and driving (apart from the possibility of hurting someone): the price of getting caught is just too high to contemplate. As is the price of getting frozen and broken.

Pat

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Why?
I'm thinking of adding a small ceramic heater for colder days and nights.

We have one that we used to use when temperatures at night dropped to 40 but eventually found running the furnace a lot more practical.

[rmkrum]

We have traveled and lived in our AS in weather down to around 20F.

A few lessons learned:

We used the propane heater for primary heat because in many AS units the heater is dumping heat into the plumbing areas and tank areas to help keep them above freezing. We also left all the 12 volt tank heaters on 24 hours a day while parked. Since we had shore power, the batteries stayed charged.

Have SEVERAL full spare propane tanks handy--you will eat a lot of propane keeping warm. Nothing is quite as embarrassing as running out of propane while wife is trying to take a nice, warm (she hoped) shower...I'm still hearing about that one!

Disconnect and drain the fresh water supply hose and filter and store it at night. It will freeze, and I suspect the filter could split if prolonged...run on your pump and full fresh water tank.

Be careful walking around outside, a slip and fall on ice or snow is no fun...

Dogs will try to hold it until the very last moment in an attempt to stay warm and inside. Insist they ALL take a walk with you at reasonable intervals...consider doggie coats/raincoats to keep them more comfortable. Our little pups would rather stay in the comfy silver dog crate as much as possible when its cold and windy. Little lap magnets under those conditions...

If the weather is really windy, cold as hell, and rain/snow is in the forecast, stay put--travel is optional, and the heck with the schedule. Crank down the stabilizers, button up, and wait it out. No point in demonstrating that you can be foolish or stupid...we get enough opportunities in better weather!

We spent a rather windy two days in Van Horn, TX on the trip back--PARKED. I'd rather pay for an extra day at a KOA or other campground than participate in an Airstream wreck by being first on the scene in rotten conditions...

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

We have one that we used to use when temperatures at night dropped to 40 but eventually found running the furnace a lot more practical.

I guess this is something I'll have to try to understand why. I'm thinking you have shore power, and the temp is 40 outside. Rather than burn the propane, run a electric heater.

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I guess this is something I'll have to try to understand why. I'm thinking you have shore power, and the temp is 40 outside. Rather than burn the propane, run a electric heater.

The furnace will put hot air throughout the ducts more evenly heating the trailer as well as into the tank area, whereas a space heater won’t.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I guess this is something I'll have to try to understand why. I'm thinking you have shore power, and the temp is 40 outside. Rather than burn the propane, run a electric heater.

Absolutely if the outside temp is above freezing, I use an electric heater rather than propane...quieter as well. I have two. One is a taller oil-filled heater that I use if I am not in the trailer and the pup is left behind. Less fire hazard than one of the ceramics. It works awesomely and will keep my 23 at around 60 degrees. At night or when I'm in the trailer, I instead use one of the little cube ceramics. I find it seems to keep things a bit warmer, plus the white noise of the fan is a preference of mine for sleeping.

If it's going to go below 30, like it did this past October, I set the furnace at 55 (I like cool sleeping) rather than using the electric heaters. Otherwise, there would be no heat pumped into the nether regions where my water pump and tanks are. Trying to use the electric heaters and the furnace is a problem because the electric heaters keep the thermostat from kicking on and thereby risking freeze damage.

[AirstreamAbe]

Thanks for the original post and this thread in general, but particularly for the bit about which parts tend to freeze first.
How effective are the the 12V tank heaters in general? It sounds like they don't heat much besides the tanks (as opposed to some of the piping) , and if there is AF in the black water tank to begin with...

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by AirstreamAbe

It sounds like they don't heat much besides the tanks (as opposed to some of the piping) , and if there is AF in the black water tank to begin with...

The black tank and the fresh tank on a 16' Sport is inside the trailer under the front bench and is heated by the ambient air in the trailer. If the furnace is on it will circulate warm air and prevent the water tank and pump and pipes from freezing. Some other models like the 22 and 23 have the black tank in the cabin (the toilet sits up on the tank box.)

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I guess this is something I'll have to try to understand why. I'm thinking you have shore power, and the temp is 40 outside. Rather than burn the propane, run a electric heater.

The furnace heats up the AS more thoroughly and quickly than the electric mode.