Forgot a low point drain - what to do?

[JeffKim]

I'm not sure why I forgot, but I missed winterizing one low point drain. I got one blown out and pumped antifreeze into it, but missed the other. It dawned on me today when it's 20F and I found the second one is now frozen and I can't budge it. Is this a big deal?

I could try using a hair dryer to unfreeze it and then run some antifreeze through it, but then it might be frozen further up the line (not sure where it leads).

Otherwise, I can wait until spring and hope for the best.

[Wazbro]

Probably not a big deal, put a container under the valve and try the hair dryer, after you get the valve to turn, open a faucet in the trailer and you will probably get antifreeze to come out without pumping anymore in.

[JeffKim]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

Probably not a big deal, put a container under the valve and try the hair dryer, after you get the valve to turn, open a faucet in the trailer and you will probably get antifreeze to come out without pumping anymore in.

Thanks! I'll give it a try. I got out the manual and from the plumbing diagram it looks like the hot water drain if that matters. It's close to the outdoor shower which I winterized, so maybe I can get some antifreeze to flow down. At least now I know where it goes.

[GetawA-S]

I agree, probably not trouble.
Water in a pipe freezes to make an immovable plug. If there's a significant run below it, the water there freezes and expands with nowhere to go until the pipe splits.
Helpful factors include plastic being more forgiving than copper, the short length of exposed pipe, and the antifreeze mixing in from above. The valve itself may be the only frozen place in the line.
Let us know how you make out.

[pmclemore]

Airstream placed my low point drains in an inaccessible area. Under the bench, placed so that I can barely touch them with the tips of my fingers, certainly not where I can get enough strength to turn them off (and back on).

What I have done is pump antifreeze (I don't use the blow out method) until there is perfect pink coming out of every spigot. I count on the ability of the antifreeze to diffuse into any remaining water.

Pat

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by JeffKim

I'm not sure why I forgot, but I missed winterizing one low point drain. I got one blown out and pumped antifreeze into it, but missed the other. It dawned on me today when it's 20F and I found the second one is now frozen and I can't budge it. Is this a big deal?

I could try using a hair dryer to unfreeze it and then run some antifreeze through it, but then it might be frozen further up the line (not sure where it leads).

Otherwise, I can wait until spring and hope for the best.

Hi

The gotcha is that the valve itself / the valve body is likely not freeze proof. The pipes to it *might* be, it depends a bit on just what AS did.

In terms of "stuff will get down there" .... hmmm .... I've done the opposite of what you did. I forgot to blow out one of the valves in the spring. come back after a summer of using the trailer and winterize. Go to do the first pass drain. Open that valve and out comes a bunch of pink stuff. Seems it just sat there all summer long and didn't mix with much of anything.

Would I go crazy trying to do something? Probably not. If the valve is already frozen, whatever damage is going to be done has been done. I'd just wait for a warm snap some time in the next few weeks and go fix it then.

Bob

[gypsydad]

If you can, I might suggest turning on your furnace to warm everything up inside and under the floor where the pipes are also for an hour or so and see if you can get water to come out of the faucet? If so, then blow the pipes out again and winterize. I realize this may not be doable in bad weather, but if you can at least get the water running, you can see if you've had any damage. Or of course, you could just wait till spring? If it's just the low point drain, you can always poor some antifreeze in there now after you start the furnace and get some warmth going.

I had cracked elbows behind my toilet and in my shower behind the mixing valve when mine froze several years back. Not fun replacing the pex and elbows, but I got it done. Let us know how it goes...

[JeffKim]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Would I go crazy trying to do something? Probably not. If the valve is already frozen, whatever damage is going to be done has been done. I'd just wait for a warm snap some time in the next few weeks and go fix it then.

Bob

Excellent point. What's done is done and adding antifreeze at this point probably won't make much difference. But as you suggest I'll see if we get some relatively warm weather and then try and open it.

[ricjones]

good discussion

after 5 airstreams in the north we have never had a broken pipe from a freeze. we put pink stuff in all the lines.

but for years I forgot about line from tank to pump, line from black tank cleanout hookup to black tank and city water hookup to tank.

I do these now with pink stuff but the airstream people at the factory told those areas usually are not the problem.

now I have to remember the shower miser lines back to the tank also because I have the accursed soon to be replaced Girard tankless.

but question: do you not need to make sure compressor does not push oil into your lines? I have seen this on a few threads that cheap compressors introduce oil into the airflow.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by ricjones

but question: do you not need to make sure compressor does not push oil into your lines? I have seen this on a few threads that cheap compressors introduce oil into the airflow.

Some of the cheap compressors don't have any oil to worry about, often advertised as oilless or oil free. Most more expensive compressors do have oil that is not suppose to get into the air line, like oil in the engine of your car/truck is suppose to stay out of the compression chamber and you shouldn't need to keep adding oil between oil changes. This doesn't mean none will get through to where it doesn't belong, especially as the compressor gets older/worn. With this in mind adding a coalescing filter to catch any oil that makes it through is a good idea. Post 19 of this thread has a picture of filters added.
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f45...or-256065.html

[bweybright]

And start with a brand new compressor then use only food grade oil like all food manufacturers must do. If it already has a conventional oil in it I am not sure how it could be cleaned out enough to remove 100% of the oil.

[rideair]

My suggestion would be to take trailer to Florida to thaw out the fitting, if bad, replacing a bad valve in the warmth of Florida is a much more fun than the cold of Minnesota!

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours

[gypsycoder]

When I lived in the north, 20F was cool but not outright cold and things that survived 20 would have an issue at -20F, ice keeps expanding as it gets colder. How cold does it get where you are?

I would try to melt it and open the valve and leave it at that, so long as the freezing water has place to expand not too much should break.

On the other hand, a trip to FL or AZ is awful nice, we are currently in the 70s during the day by Phoenix.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

An "oil" pump may have been ( = should have been ) oiled up at the factory. Yes, you *add* oil at the output. There's still the oil coming from the pump itself. Food grade or not, I'm not sure I'd want oil in my water pipes ....

Freezing is freezing. The ice cube will form at 31F. When it does, the pipe cracks. The ice cube does no more damage at -45F than at 31F. What is true: it will take a lot more time for than ice cube to form at 31F than at -45F.

Bob

[farafield]

For what it's worth, any winterizing list I've seen, including the one in the AS Owner's Manual, do not mention running antifreeze through the low point drains or anywhere except the main plumbing lines, i.e. to sink, shower, faucets.

[akarakos]

You didn’t tell us what model & year.airstream you have but for a newer model travel trailer turn the furnace on and let the trailer warm up. Even the area under the floor is enclosed to warm pipes, etc to stay above freezing. After a while the frozen area will probably clear enough to put the portable water, antifreeze, pink stuff, through it.Even if there is some ice the pick stuff is good to 50 below zero.

[davidz71]

I had floor repair work done at Jackson Center over a year ago and had them look for a roof leak as well as a very small leak in my fresh water system. They found a Sharkbite repair I had done near the low point drains was not seated properly and it has a slight leak. They later opened one of the low point drains to the point I cannot exert enough pressure downward to close the valve while twisting it. I gave up, opened the other low point drain and installed two 3/8" brass valves under the trailer where I can reach them better. I've seen plenty of other trailers with drain valves underneath so I said "Why not?" I pressure tested the system after winterizing and all is good.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by JeffKim

I'm not sure why I forgot, but I missed winterizing one low point drain. I got one blown out and pumped antifreeze into it, but missed the other. It dawned on me today when it's 20F and I found the second one is now frozen and I can't budge it. Is this a big deal?

I could try using a hair dryer to unfreeze it and then run some antifreeze through it, but then it might be frozen further up the line (not sure where it leads).

Otherwise, I can wait until spring and hope for the best.

Probably not what you want to hear but I forgot low-point drains my second time winterizing and in the spring the little brass valve under the Airstream (this was a 2017 27' FC) leaked. It wasn't a big leak, but it did leak. I was getting some other work done at Colonial Airstream in NJ later in the summer so I had them replace the valve. But I agree; if it is damaged then it is already damaged so relax and wait until spring to assess the damage. I leave my valves open all winter so if there is water somewhere it drips out rather than pool up and freeze. You might want to open them now (along with a faucet inside) so if it warms up then at least the residual will drain.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

...Freezing is freezing. The ice cube will form at 31F. When it does, the pipe cracks. The ice cube does no more damage at -45F than at 31F. What is true: it will take a lot more time for than ice cube to form at 31F than at -45F.

Bob

The water might reach its maximum expansion at about 0C, but the properties of the material surrounding it might change as the temps continue to drop. For example, a plastic which is still flexible enough at 0C to withstand the expansion of the water might become brittle as it continues to cool, resulting in a burst pipe at colder temps.

For example, ABS plastic will become brittle at -25C to -40C, so a situation which might have been okay at 0C becomes a leak at -30C. Still some drain pipes on holding tanks made from ABS, as well as some other plumbing parts. This might also be a problem for other items, like battery cases, since they are commonly made from ABS.

Polyethylene appears to become brittle at lower temps (-50C) so those fittings would be safer. Even better news is that HDPE (used in PEX pipes) are not going to get brittle until -76C or lower, so probably safe there.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by richard5933

The water might reach its maximum expansion at about 0C, but the properties of the material surrounding it might change as the temps continue to drop. For example, a plastic which is still flexible enough at 0C to withstand the expansion of the water might become brittle as it continues to cool, resulting in a burst pipe at colder temps.

For example, ABS plastic will become brittle at -25C to -40C, so a situation which might have been okay at 0C becomes a leak at -30C. Still some drain pipes on holding tanks made from ABS, as well as some other plumbing parts. This might also be a problem for other items, like battery cases, since they are commonly made from ABS.

Polyethylene appears to become brittle at lower temps (-50C) so those fittings would be safer. Even better news is that HDPE (used in PEX pipes) are not going to get brittle until -76C or lower, so probably safe there.

Hi

True ... (there's always a something more though ... )

It think the only two likely plastic candidates are polyethylene ( = PEX / water tanks) and PVC. The gotcha with PVC is that there are zillions of varieties. So yes, you could indeed have one that goes brittle at cold. If so, I would not want to drive that trailer down a bumpy road in the winter .

The bigger thing I would worry about are metal items that went in here or there. They are the parts that seem to be the most likely failure points.

Bob