Adding antifreeze to plumbing

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One risk with the blowout only approach is plumbing that has metal tee's or elbows in it (worse would be metal pipes, but that's way back ...). I have no idea just when they went from metal pipe to plastic or from plastic + metal junctions to full plastic.. That makes coming up with guidance a bit tough.

If you have a metal elbow deep in the bottom of the trailer, it's a pretty good bet that is where the water will. puddle. A few drops of water aren't going to crack the elbow. In fact I'd bet a shot glass full of water isn't enough (it will expand into the empty pipe ...). Still, there is *some* pretty small amount of water (less than a pint) right at the joint that will do the trick.

Is the low point drain really below everything? Certainly in my trailer there are a few zigs and zags that would stop all the water from draining out the low points. Air is needed to get water out of everyplace.

Lots of variables .....

Bob

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

...

Is the low point drain really below everything? Certainly in my trailer there are a few zigs and zags that would stop all the water from draining out the low points. Air is needed to get water out of everyplace.

I agree that using air to blow out the lines is a good way to winterize.

However, before blowing the lines, using the low point drains is vital. If you open all of the inside taps and then open the low point drains the water flowing out of the lines creates a siphon effect and this will draw most of the water out of the system. If the taps are not open when opening the low points the lines won't drain properly - similar to when you put your thumb over the end of a straw filled with liquid.

Now you are ready to follow the procedure to blow out any remaining water in the line. There won't be very much water left and you will likely only get mist coming out of the faucets.

Similarly, if you choose to use only RV Propylene Glycol Antifreeze instead, be sure and drain the system first using the low point drains first, otherwise you will be mixing the antifreeze with water and lowering its efficacy. After pumping the antifreeze through the system drain it immediately using the system above for draining the water from the low points. Collect this antifreeze and use it in the traps and toilet bowl.

If using an air compressor too, then you can blow the lines again to remove most of the residual antifreeze to make de-winterizing easier in the spring.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If you are going to use anti-freeze, it should always be pumped out each faucet / each side until it is the same color coming out as it was going in (and there is no air). Then pump it for at least a pint more, simply to be sure. Don't re-use what you pump out, it likely has been diluted.

Of course if you don't live in .... errr ... Northern Ontario ... errr.... you might get away with a bit less than -50 degree (C or F) protection . On the shore of Lake Erie it likely does not get down much below -30

Bob

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

If you are going to use anti-freeze, it should always be pumped out each faucet / each side until it is the same color coming out as it was going in (and there is no air). Then pump it for at least a pint more, simply to be sure. Don't re-use what you pump out, it likely has been diluted.

Of course if you don't live in .... errr ... Northern Ontario ... errr.... you might get away with a bit less than -50 degree (C or F) protection . On the shore of Lake Erie it likely does not get down much below -30

Bob

If the lines are blown out first, what is in the system to dilute the antifreeze? I was always advised “waste not, want not”, so I use the antifreeze that I have drained/blown out in the traps where it can do some good. BTW, when it is really cold (-50 deg C) the RV antifreeze doesn’t stay liquid, but rather it gets slushy.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

If the lines are blown out first, what is in the system to dilute the antifreeze? I was always advised “waste not, want not”, so I use the antifreeze that I have drained/blown out in the traps where it can do some good. BTW, when it is really cold (-50 deg C) the RV antifreeze doesn’t stay liquid, but rather it gets slushy.

Hi

Well, I can spend two days blowing lines with a fairly large compressor. No matter how many times I cycle things, if I come back in a couple of hours ... more water blows out the next time. If you do the blowout and then do anti-freeze, what comes out of the faucet first rarely is the same color as what comes out after running a bit.

My guess is that once you get to a small amount of water in the line, it just spreads out in a film on the inside of the pipe. Blowing that out without an air dryer on your compressor ... not so much. Once you stop blowing, the film slowly drops back to some low point in the system.

Bob

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Well, I can spend two days blowing lines with a fairly large compressor. No matter how many times I cycle things, if I come back in a couple of hours ... more water blows out the next time. If you do the blowout and then do anti-freeze, what comes out of the faucet first rarely is the same color as what comes out after running a bit.

My guess is that once you get to a small amount of water in the line, it just spreads out in a film on the inside of the pipe. Blowing that out without an air dryer on your compressor ... not so much. Once you stop blowing, the film slowly drops back to some low point in the system.

Bob

Hi, I can see your point if you only use RV antifreeze without draining the lines first. However, if I am interpreting your theory correctly, then any RV antifreeze you add to the system is useless because of the residual water (after blowing the lines) mixing with it. If it isn’t compromising your lines then why do you feel it would be too diluted to protect the traps and to prevent the toilet seal from drying out?

[Silvr_Bullet]

It reasons that on the initial application of Antifreeze you flush/ dilute the water in the lines that remain after blowing out the lines, if that water remains in the waste tanks in the diluted state and rises to the outlet it could ( if the dilution of RV Antifreeze is not adequate ) it can freeze and damage the discharge valve.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

Hi, I can see your point if you only use RV antifreeze without draining the lines first. However, if I am interpreting your theory correctly, then any RV antifreeze you add to the system is useless because of the residual water (after blowing the lines) mixing with it. If it isn’t compromising your lines then why do you feel it would be too diluted to protect the traps and to prevent the toilet seal from drying out?

Hi

When you pump antifreeze through the lines it mixes with the water in the line and pushes the combo out the faucet (or drain). The first pint is 80% water, the second pint is 60% water, the tenth pint is 20% water / 80% antifreeze. There is only so much water that can be in those pipes. You could look at it as the antifreeze scrubbing the water out of the line if that makes more sense.

By bowing out the water, you reduce what there is to dilute your antifreeze. The pint after pint process goes quicker as a result.

If what you push through the lines goes into the waste tanks, then they do need to be emptied. If you use a bucket to catch the outflow, that will do ok for gray water. For black water, the bucket needs to go at the normal sewer drain point ....

Bob

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

When you pump antifreeze through the lines it mixes with the water in the line and pushes the combo out the faucet (or drain). The first pint is 80% water, the second pint is 60% water, the tenth pint is 20% water / 80% antifreeze. There is only so much water that can be in those pipes. You could look at it as the antifreeze scrubbing the water out of the line if that makes more sense.

By bowing out the water, you reduce what there is to dilute your antifreeze. The pint after pint process goes quicker as a result.

If what you push through the lines goes into the waste tanks, then they do need to be emptied. If you use a bucket to catch the outflow, that will do ok for gray water. For black water, the bucket needs to go at the normal sewer drain point ....

Bob

Ummm, er ... you seem to be confusing two different methods of winterizing with RV antifreeze.

You originally commented on my suggestion that after blowing out the lines with air there would be still too much water in the lines and that would cause the dilution of the RV antifreeze to a point that it would be ineffective.

My point is if one is to use the belt and suspenders method of winterization there is virtually no water left in the lines after blowing with air and then using the water pump to fill the lines with antifreeze. Next drain and collect the antifreeze through the low point drains and blow the lines again with air collecting that antifreeze. There will be nothing wrong with using the antifreeze that has been collected from the low point drains or from the faucets with this method and putting in the traps and toilet bowl. In fact you don't really need to add antifreeze to the distribution system.

However, you do what you want and others can take or leave the suggestions to avoid wasting the antifreeze.

The other advantage of draining the antifreeze and blowing the system out again is to avoid having it sit in the pipes all winter (possibly adding off tastes) and making de-winterizing easier come spring.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

Ummm, er ... you seem to be confusing two different methods of winterizing with RV antifreeze.

You originally commented on my suggestion that after blowing out the lines with air there would be still too much water in the lines and that would cause the dilution of the RV antifreeze to a point that it would be ineffective.

My point is if one is to use the belt and suspenders method of winterization there is virtually no water left in the lines after blowing with air and then using the water pump to fill the lines with antifreeze. Next drain and collect the antifreeze through the low point drains and blow the lines again with air collecting that antifreeze. There will be nothing wrong with using the antifreeze that has been collected from the low point drains or from the faucets with this method and putting in the traps and toilet bowl. In fact you don't really need to add antifreeze to the distribution system.

However, you do what you want and others can take or leave the suggestions to avoid wasting the antifreeze.

The other advantage of draining the antifreeze and blowing the system out again is to avoid having it sit in the pipes all winter (possibly adding off tastes) and making de-winterizing easier come spring.

Lots of valid methods. I choose only suspenders. [emoji3] I drain through low points then with the winterizing kit on my water pump I draw the pink stuff through all the pipes (except water heater with bypass) and let it sit for the winter. Oh - and I learned last year that cleaning out the flange in the toilet bowl with a toothpick (wear gloves for the love of all things holy) and ensuring a good amount of food grade dialectic grease around the flapper keeps it in good shape and not disturbed by the little bit of pink stuff left in the bowl from winterizing the pipes feeding the toilet.

In the spring, I’ll fill the fresh tank a day or more in advance of getting ready to dewinterize and I’ll overdo it on the bleach (12-16oz for my near 40 gallon tank) and let it sit overnight at least. I’ll then use that to pump out the antifreeze through all the lines. This tends to get rid of the AF bubbles and taste (if any) fairly quickly, and sanitizes the pipes for the start of the season. I’ll leave the heavy bleach fresh water in the pipes a few hours then I’ll then drain the FW tank and refill from city water with just a few oz of bleach to keep the FW tank clean and pump city water through all the pipes to de-bleach them. We dewinterize at a site with a full hookup every year to do this procedure.

Do what works best for you - belts and suspenders can’t hurt!