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01-22-2021, 01:43 PM
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#21
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NO HUMBLE OPINION
1968 20' Globetrotter
ANN ARBOR
, THE GREAT LAKES
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 665
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Well, I'm back...
Forgot to note that the 1968 owner's manual's pages on windows is reprinted from the 1966 manual and is in no way correct. Following it will only confuse. The first generation 1966 glassbar is different than the 1968.
Since I'm here, I'll ramble on...
Say in 1967 you bought a 1966 replacement window from Airstream, it would come to you with the glassbar already adhered to the glass. Separating the 1966 glassbar from the glass pane is a task beyond the ability and patience of mere mortals, they're seriously bonded together, so the pane was shipped and installed with a new glassbar.
If you ordered a 1967/68 window it would come without the glassbar, as your two-piece separable glassbar could stay in the window frame and you would foam tape the edge and clamp it it in. The foam tape perfectly balances the glass's clearance along the inside of the clamp style glassbar. If you use a sealant instead of tape, your window may not seal as designed. After fifty years, the foam can turn to dust and your prized Corning glass falls out. Opened, they'll actually blow away some windy day. Left ajar while in travel isn't safe for them.
The Achilles heel of the chemically tempered Corning glass is its edge. I think that's one of the reasons that it was eventually protected with stainless edging in 1968. Plenty of windows have broken from prying the spring clips off. one chip, and they're popcorn. Somewhere on this forum is an image of Frank Yeltsen, with window on the shop floor, standing full weight on the curved window's apex. It didn't break.
Lurking this site fifteen years ago, before "replacement glass" (and that's a whole 'nother issue) was available, It was often advised not to buy for restoration, a '66-'68 specifically because of the nonavailability of glass.
Maybe it's better now, but no replacement fits the same as original Corning. Early on, replacement glass fit better if installed upside-down. Today, I don't know.
I'm very open to learning more about these love-hate windows. I hope this thread brings a variety of leak solutions.
peace...
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01-22-2021, 01:54 PM
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#22
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3 Rivet Member
1966 17' Caravel
Pine Plains
, NY
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykytiukr
Sikaflex 715. Will not deteriorate like most!
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Good to know. Thanks.
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01-22-2021, 03:32 PM
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#23
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Great recent comments, thanks.
Good luck zen!
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01-23-2021, 01:28 AM
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#24
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3 Rivet Member
1966 17' Caravel
Pine Plains
, NY
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 185
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ALUMINUMINUM, nice to hear from you again! I think our posts crossed each other...I too want to learn, and above all, get it right. To do that, I need to rely (heavily) on the wisdom of others who are experienced with this genre of trailers, such as yourself. But I am now admittedly confused. On the one hand, you say the best way to handle these windows is to use the foam tape that originally held these windows in place in the glassbar. That makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand, you caution against removing the glass from the glassbar due to high risk of chipping the edge of the glass. Totally agree. I removed all of my windows [save for the one the PO replaced...it wouldn't budge] to preserve them during the interior resto. I know from hand sanding the corrosion on the glassbar that the glass would never come out of the glassbar without a fight...which in turn means you cannot, as a practical matter, replace the foam tape. I suspect that is why Andy was recommending the use of a self-leveling sealant designed for RVs...to fill in the gaps of a disintegrating foam. But you counsel against that approach:
"If you use a sealant instead of tape, your window may not seal as designed. After fifty years, the foam can turn to dust and your prized Corning glass falls out. Opened, they'll actually blow away some windy day."
So, are we 1966 Corning window people left with no viable option but to live with the leaks, knowing the havoc they will reek, or hope we are there to catch the windows when the foam tape gives way? This is on my spring tune-up list, so I'd really like to understand why you caution that the sealant might not seal the window as designed. Your pointers, suggestions and insight on my thread has been a great addition, landing you a coveted invitation to join a Club Caravel happening. I look forward to hearing from you on this point and am sure Zen and other Corning people would as well. Thanks! Also going to reach out to others in my 1966 Caravel orbit to see if we can collectively formulate a solid solution we all can support.
BTW: As an aside, I just have to stand for Andy since he can no longer do so himself. I do not believe for a minute that this professional who wrote 1000s of threads imparting his vast Airstream knowledge for free would ever have recommended a quick fix for a leaking window just to get a cranky customer out of his shop, as was suggested elsewhere in this thread.
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01-23-2021, 05:36 AM
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#25
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NO HUMBLE OPINION
1968 20' Globetrotter
ANN ARBOR
, THE GREAT LAKES
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 665
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The '66 glass pane is the same as '67/'68, but its glassbar is one piece. The '66 pane IS siliconed into its glassbar. There's no way it could be taped into the glassbar' channel.
The 67/68 glassbar is two-piece. Its channel separates, and is held together with small machine screws that are usually corroded and their heads often snap off upon removal attempt. When the glassbar is opened up/two pieces separated, instead of silicone, foam tape is folded over the pane's top edge and captured in the groove that is created when the glassbar is screwed back together.
I'm not meaning to tarnish his deserved legacy, but he did have his gruff and cranky moments.
1967 window.jpg
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The two-piece glassbar has teeth in its channel to grip the tape.
My '68 had factory applied silicone, parbond, and tape in various locations.
For 67/68, if you use silicone instead of tape, the glass can be set askew in the glassbar
Oh, and I wonder the '66 glass pane's chemical temper has something to do with its tenacious adherence to its glassbar??
.
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01-23-2021, 06:02 AM
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#26
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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01-23-2021, 06:15 AM
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#27
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4 Rivet Member
2005 25' Safari
1968 17' Caravel
1967 22' Safari
Leawood
, Kansas
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 456
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Here's my 2 cents worth. My windows don't leak, at least when I sprayed them from the outside and pressure washed. I had other leaks, but I understand why. What I do notice is that the 66-68 windows don't pull tight on the sides perfectly, and that's not the subject of this current discussion. My fix would be, based on my aviation background, going with something like Parker O-Lube in the hinge, to displace water. It's Mil-Spec and won't corrode aluminum. The silicones vary and some have acetic acid and I think that's verboten in this case. Boeshield or similar could be sprayed in the gaps to prevent corrosion by water displacement. If I had to park my trailer outside when I was not camping in it, I'd just tape the window with the Stucco type guaranteed no residue duct tape, that they sell at Home Depot, for the off season and pull it off in the spring when it's time to go camping. Lastly, if this is your problem and you use Acryl-R in the lower inside corners, like the factory, you'll have a small fish bowl in each window that's a problem after a rain, so having said that, I don't think, unless you abandon a trailer, it will get to the point where it rots your floor. My '67 Safari had 3 windows that were fish bowls when I bought it, but the floor's not rotted below them. Maybe break the bottom weather seal to let the water back outside. Well that was at least a nickel's worth. Jerry
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01-23-2021, 06:26 AM
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#28
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3 Rivet Member
1966 17' Caravel
Pine Plains
, NY
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 185
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Thanks, ALUMINUMINUM, for your post - the photos were very helpful, as was your discussion of the various windows. And, I have a clear answer to the 1966 windows - they must be installed with silicone. I had not understood that from your original posts - I thought you were advocating the tape. So just to tie the loop - which silicone product would you recommend to fill in the gaps, as I do not want to remove the window? Or do you support the idea of a grease/lubricant, such as those Doc recommends?
Equally helpful, Doc. Thanks for weighing in for the benefit of everyone trying to get an answer. Given the concerns about the sealants referenced in this thread, I may start with a less permanent solution and try one of the grease/lubricants you mentioned. Mine is holding, for now (at least as best I can tell), but there is a huge gap which spans the entire front window...which is why mine is taped up for winter.
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01-23-2021, 07:31 AM
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#29
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Rivet Master
1964 22' Safari
modesto
, California
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,094
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It has been my experience that my "window" leaks were actually rivet line leaks above the window that allowed the water to escape at the window frame. Just a thought.
-Dennis
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01-23-2021, 09:05 AM
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#30
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Rivet Master
1988 32' Excella
Robbinsville
, New Jersey
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,134
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With silicone caulk make sure you get one for aluminum, (might say gutters and flashing).
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01-23-2021, 04:50 PM
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#31
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NO HUMBLE OPINION
1968 20' Globetrotter
ANN ARBOR
, THE GREAT LAKES
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 665
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Docflyboy, I agree,
I don’t know who was collaborating with whom, but between Airstream, Philips and Corning, who thought this was going to work? On a stage of trailer windows, these are the beautiful 88-pound ballerinas in the back row that can’t quite pirouette.
“GEN III” aka 1968 have a stainless steel ear/tab-diverter/dam or possibly a guide of sorts in their top corners. This tab seals against the dollop of silicone applied to the end of the glassbar. The dollop of silicone is there to prevent water intrusion from/to where? Keep water from entering the glassbar? Prevent water from escaping the glassbar? Other? The afore mentioned seized clamping screws show corrosion.
A “double lip” seal is what these windows were originally fitted with. Today I know of two replacements, the flat foam seal and the hollow D seal. I don’t know which is better. I used the flat foam and it seals fine with my original Cornings. Maybe someday I’ll plastigauge the glass to foam interference and report back. The D seal might have more loft and better for replacement glass. Did Corning rely on the seal compression as it closes to flex the glass to full closure? ‘cause I think that’s what I see happening a little when mine close.
One of the challenges with this design is that the pressure against the seal moves down along to the final closure and should remain even when fully closed. Wouldn’t the original Cornings have been designed with this in mind?Maybe the hollow D seal doesn’t resist enough to flex the glass. Just thinking out loud here…
I also guess that there must be a flexibility difference between the 1/8” heat tempered replacement glass and the less than 3/16” (closer to 5/64”)chemically temperedCorning.
I’ve got this old contour gauge that’s real handy around an Airstream
It can demonstrate the window contour difference between up-side-down and right-side-up This gap should be even along its edge when fully closed.
This cross-section illustration shows the difficult path for water to pass from outside through the “hook Hinge” to inside.
1968 manual has 1966 directions with lubrication advise
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01-23-2021, 10:33 PM
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#32
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Rivet Master
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Aluminuminum- thanks for the valuable information you have posted about the 66-68 Corning windows. I had no idea that the 66 design was different than the 67-68 design. I sure am glad that I have a 66 Tradewind.
Dan
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01-24-2021, 04:50 AM
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#33
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringDan
Aluminuminum- thanks for the valuable information you have posted about the 66-68 Corning windows.
. . .
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Copy that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALUMINUMINUM
. . .
On a stage of trailer windows, these are the beautiful 88-pound ballerinas in the back row that can’t quite pirouette.
. . .
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Thank you for your expertise.
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01-24-2021, 06:19 AM
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#34
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4 Rivet Member
2005 25' Safari
1968 17' Caravel
1967 22' Safari
Leawood
, Kansas
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 456
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Aluminuminum- Thanks so much for that. I think with what Frank of years ago and you have posted, a lot is added to how these windows work. Thanks especially for the cross section of the bars. I ordered a replacement for my Type 3 window and was sent a '66 model type 1. A type 1 would be easy to reproduce with an aluminum upcut router bit and some stock 5056 on a router table, or on a CNC machine. I think the Type 3 with the hook would be hard to hillbilly engineer in one's shop at home. One question--How far do you have to extend the window to get it free of the frame. And I assume that removing the bracket for the opener is required. I've got one old wiggly original middle length window in my '68 that needs re-mounting. Jerry
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01-24-2021, 09:01 AM
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#35
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4 Rivet Member
1976 Argosy 24
1961 28' Ambassador
1968 26' Overlander
Lakewood
, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 407
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Aluminuminum, great post with excellent pics, love the contour gauge. My '68 Overlander was missing 4 windows. Had all 4 of the glass bars out of the hinges for refurb, put a skim of silicone paste along the hinge edge, 2 of them went in and out multiple times. Had to fabricate a couple missing "dams". Lots of time padding up the edge seals to fit the contours of the new/used glass. Used a urethane auto glass sealant to adhere the glass to the glass bars.
Almost a year outside now with no leaks (really shouldn't tempt the gods like this).
Keep'em sealed up...Mark D
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01-24-2021, 06:17 PM
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#36
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2 Rivet Member
1968 28' Ambassador
Portland
, Oregon
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 81
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Appreciate the detailed discussion and the thoughtful responses.
Just to rule it out, I wanted to see if my gaskets could be the source of my “hinge leak” issues. I went to look at the trailer yesterday to see if our gaskets went all the way to the top of the window frames. It appears that a couple of the suspect windows didn't have the gaskets going all the way. Had plenty of gasket material from VTG so I redid all the gaskets the proper way.
We had some rain today and I went to check on the trailer to see if I still had leaks. It still appears to be leaking from the hinges. I was able to see droplets of water coming out of the hinge seam. And it seems to be entering from the sides only. Everything above the hinge is dry. No visible evidence of water coming from the riveted seam above the window frame. I have my inner skins out so I can see all that pretty well.
So either the water is getting up through the hinge itself or it's entering through the top corners at the two ends of the aluminum bar that holds the glass.
Mines a type 3, so it has a two-piece design. Maybe water is getting through in-between the two pieces? I see in some of the pictures that the ends of the glass bar are sealed with a bead silicone. Maybe I need to do that?
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01-24-2021, 07:06 PM
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#37
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4 Rivet Member
1976 Argosy 24
1961 28' Ambassador
1968 26' Overlander
Lakewood
, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 407
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Wow, how frustrating, at least you are at the stage where you can fix it and know it's fixed. Good pic of the leak on the inside, could you show a pic of the outside similar to 1st pic in post #31? Also, referencing that pic, is the little diverter/dam piece there? Looking again at that pic, when I resealed the top of my frames I made sure my sealant (I used par-bond aluminum, VTS) went all the way past the end of the frame, almost making a little spur to shed the water.
Old auto mechanic trick, think you have a leak, put tape (blue, not duck) over suspect spot and try again.
Problem (one of many) with silicone is you blob it on there and it doesn't work and now you've made a real mess.
Good luck... Mark D
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01-24-2021, 11:27 PM
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#38
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NO HUMBLE OPINION
1968 20' Globetrotter
ANN ARBOR
, THE GREAT LAKES
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 665
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Docflyboy, Referring to the arm in figure 86a? Yes, must be removed. First, pull the clip and disjoint. lifts about as high as it can go, and unhooks. If you’re glass wiggles a little in its glassbar, you can “re-tape” without removing the hinge side of your two-piece glassbar. You can easily prep that side of the bar while it’s still in the window frame if you like. Replacing the foam tape, you can do that without removing the “inside” half of the glassbar from the window frame.
The only frustrating part of this procedure is when one or two of the glassbar clamping screws won’t come out. This can be an opportunity to temper your OCD, (note: CDO when properly alphabetized). If the screw isn’t coming out, go ahead and twist the head off. Grind/file the remains flush, drill a hole right next to it and oval the corresponding hole to align. Upon reassembly, there’ll be a little half moon cavity next to the new screw head, and that’s OK.
ZEN, Lets hope siliconed ends help. I hope you can figure it out, it’s not easy to find the leaks. Having the inside skins off should help a bunch. I used dye, compressed air, plastic sheets, and tape, even made driprails from tape. Re-Tollied my rivets, re-re-sealed marker lights… It took forever.
Do keep us posted with your findings
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01-25-2021, 07:54 AM
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#39
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4 Rivet Member
2005 25' Safari
1968 17' Caravel
1967 22' Safari
Leawood
, Kansas
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 456
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Aluminuminum- thanks for that. I'm going to remove the whole thing to work on a carpeted work bench. No need to risk breaking anything, and also want to buff the parts while apart. What's the best brand foam tape to use in your opinion? OCD, what OCD, in a perfection driven person trying to make a 52 year old trailer as good as it gets? Jerry
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01-25-2021, 09:22 AM
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#40
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Rivet Master
1967 22' Safari
MILAN
, Illinois
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,013
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Sealing glass to glass bar
Quote:
Originally Posted by docflyboy
Aluminuminum- thanks for that. I'm going to remove the whole thing to work on a carpeted work bench. No need to risk breaking anything, and also want to buff the parts while apart. What's the best brand foam tape to use in your opinion? OCD, what OCD, in a perfection driven person trying to make a 52 year old trailer as good as it gets? Jerry
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Jerry, I contacted 3M told them of my concerns with holding the upper edge of the glass to the glass bar. They recommended a double sided reinforced tape they make that was sold at auto stores like AutoZone, O'Reilly's, and Advance Auto parts. I think they may carry it at CarQuest too! I cannot recall the part number after all these years since I did mine but the glass is still very firmly held in the clamps. I did my glass in 2006 so 14 years + it has held tight! Give 3M a call and ask for technical assistance. I'm sure they won't steer you wrong. Good luck, Ed
__________________
1967 Safari Twin "Landshark" w/International trim package
2014 GMC Sierra 1500 Double Cab SLE
FORUMS MEMBER SINCE 12/16/2004AIR#7110
"My tire was thumping, I thought it was flat. When I looked at the tire, I noticed your CAT!" Burma Shave
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