Pepwave BR1 Mini + cross-polarized Log Periodic?

[aaryno]

Hi, I'm trying to figure out the best setup for working remotely and I've got this tentative setup:

1) Pepwave MAX BR1 Mini (I have this now)
2) Verizon now, would consider adding an AT&T
3) 2x Log Periodic antennas (cross-polarized)
4) Telescoping antenna pole (25' or 40')

I know that at least one location in our "hope to work" destinations is Colter Bay CG which has notoriously poor coverage, trees, and has access to just one Verizon cell tower some miles to the south.

Does this sound like a good plan? What might I consider to change to improve?

[GeeSag]

For working remotely, how much downtime can you tolerate?

Such as, if you have many Zoom Meetings and your primary provider drops your LTE connection, and you have to reboot the hotspot to re-establish the connection, then that is way too long for a Zoom Call.

So better have a second hotspot up and already running and connected so you can just toggle your WiFi to the other provider hotspot. That downtime is a matter of seconds.

[aaryno]

Originally Posted by GeeSag

For working remotely, how much downtime can you tolerate?

Such as, if you have many Zoom Meetings and your primary provider drops your LTE connection, and you have to reboot the hotspot to re-establish the connection, then that is way too long for a Zoom Call.

So better have a second hotspot up and already running and connected so you can just toggle your WiFi to the other provider hotspot. That downtime is a matter of seconds.

Apologies if I am not clear. I have not used these before. Does that mean +1 for getting a second mobile provider and letting it fail over to connection 2 if 1 is dropped or do you mean have a second router for the second connection?

Also, what about the antenna setup? I currently have a 5-in-1 omnidirectional antenna (2 mobile, 1 wifi, 1 GPS (why?), and 1 I'm-not-sure-what-makes-it-5. Will I get better coverage if I go with a directional antenna and manual pointing it to my provider if I can find it?

[NeonFlamingo]

Yes, you will get dramaticly better signal using a directional antenna vs. an omnidirectional antenna. That's the whole idea. I use a Proxicast 120 degree sector antenna (also cross polarized MIMO) with a Cradlepoint IBR600C (dual SIM, VZW and ATT) mounted to a 25' mast. I went with a 120 sector because it gives substantial signal amplification but doesn't need to be aimed perfectly like a narrower directional antenna. The narrower the beam the further away the tower can be, but also the more accurate you have to be setting it up.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

High gain antennas tend to be band specific. Since there are multiple cellular bands, that can get a bit tricky. They also can get quite large. That leads into mounting issues along with the whole "pointing accurately" boondoggle.

The simple answer to this is to:

1) Find a camping spot in town / in sight of a tower

--- or ----

2) Don't count on being connected.

Even with option 1, the tower may be grossly overloaded by traffic. In that case, even in town, your data rate can drop below an "ok for a video call" sort of rate. This happens more often on remote towers than in cities with a number of towers. We have run into it on multiple occasions.

If you want to improve your odds, have a hotspot from each of the main players (AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile). Have them all set up and running, each with its own antenna. You may not actually be hitting three towers since they do share things out. You *might* be and if you are that gives you a backup.

Bob

[Ephraim]

Your setup should work fine. Mount the yagis so that they are cross polarized, but at a 45 degree angle. (X instead of +).

As long as you can secure the mast to keep it from unwanted rotation/movement, yet still be able to aim it, you will do fine.

I currently use a similar setup while I am waiting for my Starlink.

Until I get the Starlink, I am still tied to cell phone coverage areas. The yagi antennas just give you better signal which results in better reliability and higher speed, but you still have to be within a coverage area. In the Southwest, many of the prime camping areas have zero cell coverage.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

High gain antennas tend to be band specific. Since there are multiple cellular bands, that can get a bit tricky. They also can get quite large. That leads into mounting issues along with the whole "pointing accurately" boondoggle.

He's using log-periodic antennas which are wide band. I haven't seen any 5G log-periodic, but there are plenty of 4G-LTE wide band antennas on the market.

[aaryno]

Originally Posted by Ephraim

He's using log-periodic antennas which are wide band. I haven't seen any 5G log-periodic, but there are plenty of 4G-LTE wide band antennas on the market.

for example, I was looking at this https://www.waveform.com/products/mi...ernal-antennas to be raised on a telescoping flag pole

as an alternative to the omni-directional antenna.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by aaryno

for example, I was looking at this https://www.waveform.com/products/mi...ernal-antennas to be raised on a telescoping flag pole

as an alternative to the omni-directional antenna.

that one looks really good. Much cheaper than the one I bought and only 50% loss from mine. If I had to do it again, I'd get this one. It is not, as advertised 5G though.

this is a 4G-LTE antenna. A 5G antenna has a much higher frequency range (and a correspondingly higher price tag such as this one.) but if you are only using it with a BR1-mini, you are only 4G-LTE anyways so it would work.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Ephraim

He's using log-periodic antennas which are wide band. I haven't seen any 5G log-periodic, but there are plenty of 4G-LTE wide band antennas on the market.

Hi

A log periodic still has an upper and lower frequency limit .....

Bob

[GeeSag]

Originally Posted by Ephraim

It is not, as advertised 5G though.

this is a 4G-LTE antenna. A 5G antenna has a much higher frequency range

Please elaborate on "It is not 5G"
I thought T-Mobile was turning up quite a bit of 5G on 600 MHz and 2.5GHz.

I thought VzW was turning up dynamic spread spectrum 5G on their legacy LTE bands, and while the throughput of those bands are limited, it is still very much 5G, albeit just slow 5G.

I thought AT&T was also turning up 5G in some of the legacy LTE bands, also slow limited by the bandwidth in those bands, but still 5G.

Of course when VzW turns up 3.5 GHz 5G, it will scream if a person is close enough for 3.5 GHz, and everyone will need antenna at that point to support 3.5 GHz, but until then, 600-2500 antenna will work for many people using today's 5G capable devices.

[GeeSag]

Originally Posted by aaryno

Apologies if I am not clear. I have not used these before. Does that mean +1 for getting a second mobile provider and letting it fail over to connection 2 if 1 is dropped or do you mean have a second router for the second connection?

Yes: I mean have two different Hotspots. One could be your Pepwave BR1, and then a hotspot from a different mobile provider up and running.
And by running, I mean: you might even need a second device like a tablet or a second PC streaming Youtube hour long video at 140P just to avoid the second hotspot from going idle and timing out.
This way, when your primary service provider drops out during an important Zoom call, you can toggle your PC WiFI to the other Hotspot very fast, usually within just a couple of seconds. Much faster than waiting for any LTE connection to establish.

To Toggle an LTE connection off and on again can take 30 -60 seconds before passing usable traffic again. And that is an eternity on an important Zoom call.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

A log periodic still has an upper and lower frequency limit .....

Yes, but as long as those limits contain the targeted spectrum, it will work.

Originally Posted by GeeSag

Please elaborate on "It is not 5G"
I thought T-Mobile was turning up quite a bit of 5G on 600 MHz and 2.5GHz.

I thought VzW was turning up dynamic spread spectrum 5G on their legacy LTE bands, and while the throughput of those bands are limited, it is still very much 5G, albeit just slow 5G.

I thought AT&T was also turning up 5G in some of the legacy LTE bands, also slow limited by the bandwidth in those bands, but still 5G.

Of course when VzW turns up 3.5 GHz 5G, it will scream if a person is close enough for 3.5 GHz, and everyone will need antenna at that point to support 3.5 GHz, but until then, 600-2500 antenna will work for many people using today's 5G capable devices.

The sub 6GHz frequency will indeed be the first turned on by most of the carriers. It is targeted towards long range (such as along freeways and most areas that are frequented by travelers.)

The higher frequencies, commonly known as millimeter wave are typically for shorter range and require more cell sites. These will see deployments more inline with urban usage, but will eventually spread past that. That is where the future is.

The current rollout of 5G networks pretty much uses the existing 4G band spectrum with a few additions. However, that will begin to change as the frequencies above 6GHz begin to come into play. A current 4G antenna will work in the short term, but when the frequencies start moving above 6GHz, it will not work very well. Probably more than a few years before that happens, but it will.

The antenna listed above by the OP lists 600MHz, 900MHz and 1710-2100MHz as its range. That is a pretty limited range, good for existing 4G networks. Not very future proof.

The one I listed is good for 600-6000MHz which will make it interoperable with the new 5G lower frequencies as they roll out, but it is considerably more expensive. There are not any that I am aware of that are targeted towards the >6GHz frequencies on the commercial market (probably because it will be a few years before those frequencies start being rolled out by the carriers.)

[GeeSag]

Ephraim:
Please help me understand
600 - 4200 MHz 14 dBi


See attached pdf file

Seems like a disconnect on the 14 dB when I look at the frequency chart.
I am clearly missing something

I might have wrong Y42700WB part number, be if I have the correct plot, it is hard to see the 14 dBi

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by GeeSag

Ephraim:
Please help me understand
600 - 4200 MHz 14 dBi


See attached pdf file

Seems like a disconnect on the 14 dB when I look at the frequency chart.
I am clearly missing something

I might have wrong Y42700WB part number, be if I have the correct plot, it is hard to see the 14 dBi

Welcome to marketing 101

Manufacturers find the absolute highest number they can and then round up to the nearest whole or even/odd number. Currently most of the US is still 4G-LTE with many just now decommissioning their 3G hardware. Most of that bandwidth lives in the realm of 5dB - 7dB on this antenna. Sure, it's got a future when the higher bands open up, but you are doing good to actually look at the plots. Most people don't. Your eyes are not deceiving you! (just the marketers)

[GeeSag]

Originally Posted by Ephraim

Welcome to marketing 101

Manufacturers find the absolute highest number they can and then round up to the nearest whole or even/odd number. Currently most of the US is still 4G-LTE with many just now decommissioning their 3G hardware. Most of that bandwidth lives in the realm of 5dB - 7dB on this antenna. Sure, it's got a future when the higher bands open up, but you are doing good to actually look at the plots. Most people don't. Your eyes are not deceiving you! (just the marketers)

Yep 5 - 7 dBi for most of the 700 MHz -2 GHz. See updated chart.
Also notice how it rolls off sharply for 600 MHz......That will be not so good for band n71

Notice how it might perform miracles for T-Mobile when they use their 2.5 GHz.

That antenna is really going to shine when 3.5 GHz starts to roll out.
I am wondering how long it will be before we start to see 3.5 GHz where Airstreamers camp?

Looks like this antenna will be amazing in the 3.5 5G.

Which operators are planing on other sub6 and above 3.7? Is anyone rolling out 5G on 5 GHz in areas that will be important to Airstreamers? Have any major carriers announced plans for 5GHz 5G?

So the short answer as I see it:
This antenna will be great when 3.5GHz 5G gets here.
This antenna will be great for T-Mobile operating on 2.5 GHz.
This antenna is not so great for T-Mobile 600 MHz (Which is where I see many times my hotspot connects)
Time to get into the weeds with other manufacturer antenna on the 600 - 2.5 GHz range so that I can get the best internet while I wait on VzW to roll out their 3.5 GHz 5G.

My takeaway: It is very misleading for Mobilemark to present it a 14 dBi 600-4200 MHz.

[GeeSag]

Thanks Ephraim.
I had planned on buying the Mobilemark antenna until I started digging into the details.
It looks like the Waveform LPDA meets the Currently Available 5G much better.
When VzW gets their 3.5 GHz widely enough deployed, then buy the Mobilemark, (Or Some other antenna at that time) that is even better suited to the full spectrum of where 5G will really be in one to two years.
And this way, a person is only out the $199 for the Waveform, as compared to the $720 (or $470 if a person builds their own +/- 45 degree bracket).

Notice how the Mobilemark has the steep roll off in the 600 MHz. That will be really bad for where T-Moblie operates today.

I am hoping Waveform is more flat with 8 dBi +/- 1 dB in the 600-698 (T-Mobile band)
At least according to how they publish their data.

The Waveform appears to outperform the Mobilemark in the 700, 850, AWS, PCS and 2.5 GHz.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

A simple vertical 1/2 wave ( with no need to point it anywhere ) gives you a bit over 2 dbi. Getting another 4 db over that is *not* going to be the difference between night and day.

Bob

[GeeSag]

Thanks Bob,
I am a believer in 2x2 MIMO based on various previous testing on legacy 4G.

For those following this thread:
Here is a great antenna to consider.
At this price point ($55 each) you can build your own bracket for 2x2 +/- 45 degrees with a pair of these

Check out: It is also 600 - 6000 MHz.
And 617 - 698 is 4.3 dBi to 7.2 dBk respectively so that helps my desire for better T-Mobile n71.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by GeeSag

Thanks Bob,
I am a believer in 2x2 MIMO based on various previous testing on legacy 4G.

For those following this thread:
Here is a great antenna to consider.
At this price point ($55 each) you can build your own bracket for 2x2 +/- 45 degrees with a pair of these

Check out: It is also 600 - 6000 MHz.
And 617 - 698 is 4.3 dBi to 7.2 dBk respectively so that helps my desire for better T-Mobile n71.

Hi

Unless your crossed antenna has two feed cables, you really aren't getting much out of it in terms of MIMO ....

Bob