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Old 07-19-2021, 06:04 PM   #121
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Post #65 report was back on 5/30/21.

Now -- "5G" in upper left corner of Home Screen.

Network Status: 5GSUB6
RSRP: -116 dBm
Band: LTE B2 or B12

Now that it is clearer what you are looking for, I will look tomorrow in the village downtown areas.
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Old 07-19-2021, 07:15 PM   #122
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Thanks -- Band 2 & 12

Thanks Peter:
That tells a lot.
It is strange it is not showing band n2 and n12. There is actually a big difference between 2 and n2, 12 and n12.

But if it is using Band 2 & 12, then it would imply carrier aggregation.
If it showing 5G, then one can think it is using 5G Modulation.
Band 2 (i.e. 1900 Mhz, i.e. PCS) and Band 12 (700MHz, i.e. tradtional 4G LTE band for AT&T)

This is interesting.
It is very confusing as to where AT&T is rolling out 5G in their legacy 4G bands.

Problem is the Hotspot show very limited amount of real data. They must be thinking that people are not paying that close attention.
They must be thinking: If it works, who cares.
We do care: If you are the only person using 5G in a certain area and everyone around you is still on 4G, then you are likely to see great throughput.
Albeit, in the sub 2500 MHz bands, i.e. legacy 4G bands, 50 Mbps is "Great" be it on 4G or 5G.
I'll take 50 Mbps if I can get it everyday when parked in an airstream.

What Bands are being used does become very important.

When operators like VzW turn up 3.5GHz, and if we can get 3.5 GHz in our camp spots, then the will be a game changer.
But until now we must live with 2.5 GHz and below and be thankful.
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Old 07-19-2021, 11:44 PM   #123
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Glad to help . . although I can't speak most of your "foreign language!"



Now 0137 AM EDT:

"5G" in upper left corner of Home Screen
RSRP: -113 dBm
Network Status: 5GSUB6
Band: LTE B2

. . . then flipping to:

"4G" in upper left corner
RSRP: -113 dBm
Network Status: LTE
Band: LTE B12

What about the rest of the line items with longer numbers?
PLMN
IPV6

Are these relevant?

Peter
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Old 07-20-2021, 07:50 AM   #124
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Hi

Sitting here at home running through my phone. It show 5G. Given that AT&T has been a bit "elastic" in their definitions of what's what in the past, I'm wondering if it really *is* 5G. We're a ways out in the sticks here ....

Bob
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Old 07-20-2021, 08:57 AM   #125
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So the Nighthawk just seems to say Band 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
"5G" in upper left corner of Home Screen
RSRP: -113 dBm
Network Status: 5GSUB6
Band: LTE B2

. . . then flipping to:

"4G" in upper left corner
RSRP: -113 dBm
Network Status: LTE
Band: LTE B12

What about the rest of the line items with longer numbers?
PLMN
IPV6

Are these relevant?

Peter

Thanks Peter:
So I think it points to the Nighthawk is showing the 5G still as B2. The more official nomenclature would be Band n2 for 5G and Band 2 for 4G, but I doubt they think most people will be paying all that close attention.
And it might also point to what Uncle Bob is saying: AT&T was terrible about calling their HSPA+ 4G to beat the market to 4G, when HSPA+ might of been a "4th" generation of data transmission over wireless, it was clearly not LTE, Long Term Evolution using an LTE CORE. They tried some slick marketing to beat the market, and they set a forever impression of what they sell not being really what it is. Their HSPA+ was not 4G LTE......It might of been a form of 4G data.

Now in the world of 5G, it will be interesting to see if they are trying to pull some of the same tricks.

I am hoping that when your device says it connects using 5G, that it is using the 5G protocols, and thus would really be 5G, albeit still very slow in the Bands: 2, 5, 12, 66 etc, all of which are still the "Sub-6" bands, and still the "Legacy 4G LTE" bands, but the legacy bands in the 600 to 2500 can very much be bands n71, n12, n17, n13, n5, n2, n4, n66 and n41 if the operators are actually using the 5G protocols in those bands.

I trust T-Mobile is "real 5G." It reports bans n71. It gets 160 mbps often with no trouble.

I can only trust AT&T is really using 5G when they show 5G on the device and also 5GSUB6. Hard to tell when AT&T is telling a "Non-Misleading Truth".....they set a forever impression on not being trustworthy. Let's hope they are not repeating themselves.

I am looking for when AT&T uses band n5 850 MHz for 5G. That will be important to Airstreamers since the 850 should go the distance. And in the near term with very few devices connecting on 5G, those users should get great throughput. Of course the word Great is relative. There is still only about 10 or 20 MHz of spectrum for AT&T to use in 850, so it still will be limited throughput, but better than 4G, but only slightly better. What does make 5G better than 4G, is that it allows way more devices to be connected to the same cell. That is one of the huge benefits of 5G over 4G outside of just bandwidth.

As far as PLMN = That is just the number that each cellular operator is required to broadcast to identify them as the carrier. For example: T-M mobile would have a PLMN ID, and AT&T would have a different PLMN ID, and VzW would have a different. Every operator is required to radiate that number.

The IPv6 is just the 6th version of IP. As time progresses, we are going to see fewer and fewer times when you devices connect using IPv4. When you log into your Nighthawk using 192.168.1.1, that is an IPv4 address. The problem is the world ran out of numbers in the IPv4 space, so IPv6 can have zillion's of addresses. The technicality: Your Nighthawk is probably getting and IPv6 address for the data it sends over either 4G or 5G network to be reachable by the outside world. The 192.168.1.1 is just the address you use between your local device: laptop, tablet, printer, etc to connect to the Nighthawk.
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Old 07-20-2021, 11:24 AM   #126
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What bands on phone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

Sitting here at home running through my phone. It show 5G.
Bob
Bob:
What is your phone reporting for bands when connected to 5G?

Hint: If you have an iPhone: dial *3001#12345#* to enter field test assuming your model iPhone stills supports filed test mode. Apple does not like to play nice and make it easy to see the connection data. Under serving cell info, it should show frequency band, or a UARFCN number which translates to the band.
If android: there is a great app NetworkcellLite or similar that provides great data.
But you probably already knew those hints.

But maybe anyone else reading this thread might benefit to learn how to see which frequency band their device is using........Knowing the Band helps set expectation on getting better throughput.......when Using smarter devices, like Pepwave routers that allow locking on a band, often the user can force one band over the other and get actually better throughput than the bands the cell tower is selecting for the device. The tell tale areas are when you are just a few miles from the tower, and the tower is selecting one band over the other. Usually the margin area between when a device connects using 700 MHz and or one of the 2 GHz bands. For example: A bad 2 GHz will have lower throughput that a strong 700 MHz signal, but the tower might be selecting 2 GHz just because it thinks you are in range of the AWS or PCS bands.

To put that in slightly more technical terms: When LTE has a very strong signal, it will use a 64 QAM modulation, then as the signal gets weaker it ratches down to 16 QAM, and then closer to the edge of the cell it ratches down to 4 QPSK.........And in simple terms: 64 QAM allows way more data to be transmitted than 4 QPSK using the same amount of band width.
When on the edge of a 2 GHz band (AWS or PCS), if the tower selects the 2 GHz, and only modulates using 4 qPSK then it is highly likely to have worse throughput than the 700 MHz which much still be a strong enough signal to use 16 QAM modulation.

So in short, Bands do make all the difference.
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Old 07-20-2021, 12:58 PM   #127
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In a local village downtown area this morning -- lots of generally good cell tower reception all around:

"5G"
RSRP: -77 dBm
Network Status: 5GSUB6
Band: LTE B66

Peter
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Old 07-20-2021, 01:50 PM   #128
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Screaming throughput at -77 dBm

I bet you saw great throughput at -77 dBm

I wonder how much slower throughput you saw at -113 dBm.

Notice both are in the 2 GHz range. One was in the PCS spectrum and the other in the AWS spectrum.

But what we do not know is if ATT was using 5, 10, or 20 MHz in the bands, and that they are turning up 5G in those bands makes me wonder how much spectrum they are taking away from the 4G in those same bands.

If it reports SNR, then I bet you saw well north of 20 dB SNR at the -77 dBm
And my guess would be somewhere between 0 and 10 dB SNR for that -113.


If you have great SNR, then RSRP starts to be less important, but with bad SNR, all the RSSP can not blast over the noise.


These days, I am gauging anything over 50 Mbps as great, and above that is probably of little benefit to the applications I am running.

What I bet you saw was a bigger difference in upload speeds between the -77 and -113 locations.

For Zoom calls, the uplink is often the more limiting factor
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:21 PM   #129
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Thanks.

No SNR line item.

Peter
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Old 07-21-2021, 08:23 AM   #130
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Hi

The idea that 850 MHz is the ideal band for long range has a couple of gotcha's associated with it.

A ways back they found that "long range" cells made for all sorts of problems. The then started changing the antenna patterns to cut back on range. Without knowing how the antennas are set up on this or that site, no way to really know what the range will be.

Next up is the number of "legacy" devices still chugging around that will only hit 850 MHz. This is the same thing as WiFi and older devices. They hop on and chew up a bunch of time doing very little. While they are doing their thing, that part of the site is blocked from doing much else.

So yes, it's complicated .....

Bob
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Old 07-21-2021, 12:11 PM   #131
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Went to a more urban area up-Island this morning.

"5G"
RSRP -110dBm
Network status:5GSUB6
Band: LTE B2

Peter
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Old 07-22-2021, 06:13 AM   #132
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PCS Re-Farming

So it looks like they are definitely refarming their PCS band on Long Island.

I had reports of their plans to use 850 MHz for 5G to get much of the coverage of the USA, but I have not seen anyone report seeing Band 5 on their 5G AT&T.
850 would be great for us Airstreamers since it should get better than the -110 dB you are seeing for a much wider area.

That -110 dBm means you are sort of the edge of getting a good signal, and sort the bottom edge.

This would be a case of it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison with 4G to see the difference. I bet 4G might connect with a much stronger signal. If the 4G used 700 MHz, and if they had 10 MHz downlink in 700 and it is hard to say if they are using 10 or 20 MHz downlink in that PCS you are getting, but it would be a great comparison of 4G to 5G on those Nighthawk.

Wow: really hard for me to justify spending $509 to get the 5G Nighthawk just to be able to do a side by side test. Much better to wait for the new Pepwave BR1 5G and then I suspect it would allow manually locking bands, and thus a much more fair test.

Thanks for the data.
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Old 07-22-2021, 06:29 AM   #133
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Thanks.

I have to go back up that way in a couple of hours, for another doctor's appointment, so I will give the 4G a try.

One of my long-term goals for the Nighthawk 5G was to be able to cut way back on my home cable ISP setup, and eventually to pipe even streaming video through it. I realize that it may not handle everything from Amazon Prime Video etc., but I have already reduced my cable bill by about $250 per month, and have basically paid for the NightHawk out of these savings, which of course are still building.

. . . . . .

"Less is more!"

Peter
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:38 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
. . .
I have to go back up that way in a couple of hours, for another doctor's appointment, so I will give the 4G a try.
. . .
Back home . . . speaking generally . . . no new data to report with "4G" at the top left corner of the Home Screen.

Peter
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Old 07-23-2021, 07:38 AM   #135
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4G vs 5G

Thank you GEESAG and others for the deep dive data. I’ve landed on purchasing 4G and ATT 100GB plan for limited remote work while camping this year. This thread has been and will be an excellent reference once I can test drive.
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Old 07-23-2021, 07:47 AM   #136
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Thumbs up

Thanks . . . will be interesting to see what you find with the 4G. Sounds as if our 5G is a smoke screen of sorts.

Happy trails,

Peter
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:12 AM   #137
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Will the AS mobile app work with the Netgear? Considering replacing my PepWave.
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:37 AM   #138
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Do not recommend buying direct from Netgear!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

Netgear has a newer 5G Nighthawk on their site. It's not up on the AT&T site yet. I would not buy the one that AT&T lists. It's already obsolete. Since there really isn't any 5G coverage at campgrounds, it's not really clear you need the 5G version when camping. If you chug into town and park downtown to work then maybe the 5G makes sense. Of course then "borrowing" WiFi from a store is also an option in that case. If you do, at least go in and buy a cup of coffee from them...

Bob
Netgear.com promises free second day shipping on their website. I was leaving for a trip and needed 2nd day. My order confirmation said 2nd day too but when I got my tracking from FEDEX Netgear had sent it by ground.

Customer service refused to refund me and blamed it on FEDEX. That is false. I have an ecomm business and the seller selects the service level. Had to open a case with credit card company and finally a month later Netgear refunded.
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:52 AM   #139
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Cricket 100G for $55 and $80 mobile hot spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeSag View Post
AT&T upgraded their 25G for $50 plan to now offer 100G for $55.

That puts them in the same range of 2G per dollar as T-Mobile 100G for $50 and VzW 30G for $15.
We bought the Cricket mobile hotspot for $80 and they have the same plan price of $55 mo for 100G and AT&T network. Working great so far. We were able to set up an Apple TV and stream. Left it plugged in and on when driving and we had wifi in the TV.
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Old 07-25-2021, 05:03 PM   #140
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Replacement Battery

Thanks for everyone's earlier guidance on getting a replacement battery. I have been looking on Amazon for one that has the correct AT&T 5G NightHawk model number, to no avail. I an fairly sure, however, that this one is a new listing, and runs a better chance of fitting the Netgear case. I am only posting the following link, without any discussion of model numbers etc., so that everyone can check it out on their own, as a new possibility for their specific NH model:

https://www.amazon.com/5040mAh-TANUO...xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

The new battery should arrive by Friday, when I can check "the fit" per everyone's advice to do so, and will advise then. Will order another 1 or 2 if the fit is good. The OEM battery continues to perform a little worse every day, probably because of heat inside the van . . . so be it!

Thanks again, GeeSag, for this thread, and for everyone else's detailed and helpful comments.

Peter
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