Should I upgrade my converter?

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

I should add, in their 11 years of service they were 'conditioned' only three times and being charged the entire time with a IOTA 55a IQ4 DLS charging one profile. They are now back-up for the basement sump pump. Lifelines AGM...you get what you pay for.[emoji106]

Bob
[emoji631]

To add to Bob's declaration, I performed a capacity test when brand new. These are the first batteries I have ever owned that perform better that advertised spec. They tested to 135Ah at 50% depletion.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Once a year should be plenty often enough to do a "blaster charge" on any AGM or flooded battery. If they need it more often than that, replace them. Solar setups often "forget" what they have been doing when the sun goes down. Next day they come back up and do what they did yesterday (and the day before and ...). I would not trust one (and yes I run Victron gear) to schedule something once a month.

Read all the threads on "my charger boiled my batteries" there are tons and tons of them. The one thing that is *guaranteed* to boil batteries is taking them to very high (like > 15V) voltages.

Bob

I am still trying to understand why all the fuss about external charger vs using the multi-stage converter? I was of the impression the imbedded "smart charge" technology in Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics converters properly charged and maintains your batteries, without having to do anything additional? My understanding is you can leave them plugged in and batteries connected without having to worry? Are we not being over concerned in this thread with battery technology or what am I missing?

I disconnect with my manual switch, if storing more than 2 weeks, but I also do leave my rig plugged in during storage this way. I will re-connect batteries a few days before use. Seems to work fine with my Trojans...please enlighten us again with why this is not sufficient using a multi-stage converter?

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

I am still trying to understand why all the fuss about external charger vs using the multi-stage converter? I was of the impression the imbedded "smart charge" technology in Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics converters properly charged and maintains your batteries, without having to do anything additional? My understanding is you can leave them plugged in and batteries connected without having to worry? Are we not being over concerned in this thread with battery technology or what am I missing?

I disconnect with my manual switch, if storing more than 2 weeks, but I also do leave my rig plugged in during storage this way. I will re-connect batteries a few days before use. Seems to work fine with my Trojans...please enlighten us again with why this is not sufficient using a multi-stage converter?

Charging on a converter/charger is NOT the same as a 'reconditioning charge' done on the bench with a charger that has a recon profile.
Even batt's in good condition will heat up during the procedure, if there is a problem they can easily overheat, the reason it's done on the bench under supervision.

Bob
🇺🇸

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Charging on a converter/charger is NOT the same as a 'reconditioning charge' done on the bench with a charger that has a recon profile.
Even batt's in good condition will heat up during the procedure, if there is a problem they can easily overheat, the reason it's done on the bench under supervision.

Bob
[emoji631]

You can create your own profile, or use a predefined one. The cheap solar charger I use has one built in and it's set to recondition the batteries anytime it deems it's necessary. I never look after it. When I used the crappy factory converter that task was on me. I took the batteries out and did them one by one. Now with the built in 4th stage it's automatic.

I took a look at what profile it uses and it matches the Lifelines recomendation pretty much spot on. The Sterling chargers will allow you to program your own if you choose to go that route.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Charging on a converter/charger is NOT the same as a 'reconditioning charge' done on the bench with a charger that has a recon profile.
Even batt's in good condition will heat up during the procedure, if there is a problem they can easily overheat, the reason it's done on the bench under supervision.

Bob
����

Thanks Bob; I understand, but what is "different" vs the "smart conditioning" technology incorporated in the Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics models today? Both seem seem to offer technology for properly charging/maintaining batteries? Why would you need to remove to do a "reconditioning charge" outside on "the bench", if using this type technology...(inquiring minds want to know. )

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

I am still trying to understand why all the fuss about external charger vs using the multi-stage converter? I was of the impression the imbedded "smart charge" technology in Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics converters properly charged and maintains your batteries, without having to do anything additional? My understanding is you can leave them plugged in and batteries connected without having to worry? Are we not being over concerned in this thread with battery technology or what am I missing?

I disconnect with my manual switch, if storing more than 2 weeks, but I also do leave my rig plugged in during storage this way. I will re-connect batteries a few days before use. Seems to work fine with my Trojans...please enlighten us again with why this is not sufficient using a multi-stage converter?

Hi

What a normal converter charger does and what an equalize cycle charger does are two different things. Victron includes an equalization capability on their gear. Most other converter / charger outfits don't have that capability built in.

Why?

Doing an equalization is dangerous. Also done more often than needed, it does far more harm than good. If you are going to do it, it needs to be for a reason *and* under controlled conditions. That's not just for the battery, it's also to protect the electronics in your RV.

What's it doing?

They are taking the battery to a *very* high voltage to get all the cells fully up to snuff. Various chemical issues and mechanical issues can build up over hundreds of cycles. Not a big deal per cycle, but eventually it adds up. Net is that capacity goes from 80% back up to 95 or 100% after the process. Effectively they "boil off / burn off" the stuff that has accumulated.

Not all manufacturers recommend doing this on their batteries. There are a lot of minor variables in battery construction. Some may not "accept" this sort of thing. If they don't the result could easily be a fairly dramatic failure.

Bob

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

What a normal converter charger does and what an equalize cycle charger does are two different things. Victron includes an equalization capability on their gear. Most other converter / charger outfits don't have that capability built in.

Why?

Doing an equalization is dangerous. Also done more often than needed, it does far more harm than good. If you are going to do it, it needs to be for a reason *and* under controlled conditions. That's not just for the battery, it's also to protect the electronics in your RV.

What's it doing?

They are taking the battery to a *very* high voltage to get all the cells fully up to snuff. Various chemical issues and mechanical issues can build up over hundreds of cycles. Not a big deal per cycle, but eventually it adds up. Net is that capacity goes from 80% back up to 95 or 100% after the process. Effectively they "boil off / burn off" the stuff that has accumulated.

Not all manufacturers recommend doing this on their batteries. There are a lot of minor variables in battery construction. Some may not "accept" this sort of thing. If they don't the result could easily be a fairly dramatic failure.

Bob

Is that not the "decalcification stage" they say is included in their technology?

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

My 12 volt side never ever hooked to shore power as the converter is disconnected. I'm on solar year round. They not only last they are maintenance free. I don't remove them ever. Two of them are in the battery boxes and the other 2 are stuffed into the couch arm rests.

Ditto (except my two extra batteries are in the empty space under the couch against the bulkhead). I use the Use/Store switch to disconnect the converter/charger from the battery bank when connected to shore power. Unless a charger is multiphase, programmable to the battery manufacturer's specs and has a battery temp sensor (as is the case for my MPPT solar controller) I wouldn't trust it to take good care of my battery bank. Batteries have to be charged in temperatures from below 0F to above 100F; the charging profile has to be adjusted accordingly. A "dumb" converter/charger won't do.

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Ditto (except my two extra batteries are in the empty space under the couch against the bulkhead). I use the Use/Store switch to disconnect the converter/charger from the battery bank when connected to shore power. Unless a charger is multiphase, programmable to the battery manufacturer's specs and has a battery temp sensor (as is the case for my MPPT solar controller) I wouldn't trust it to take good care of my battery bank. Batteries have to be charged in temperatures from below 0F to above 100F; the charging profile has to be adjusted accordingly. A "dumb" converter/charger won't do.

That's why I use a MorningStar. Nothing dumb about it. Temperature compensation is included. Most winters the battery voltage will get quite high, but I haven't had issues surrounding that. This winter it's been quite mild. I haven't checked the voltage this winter. I was out there after I came back from the UK a week ago to clean the snow of the panels, all batteries were at 100%.

[uncle_bob]

Is that not the "decalcification stage" they say is included in their technology?
......


Hi

If I call a stage the "Bob stage" and it only goes to 13.2V it will do whatever any charger does at 13.2V. If the "Bob stage" takes the voltage to 18V it will do something pretty crazy to the battery.

What matters is the voltage being used. The names these folks come up with for what's going on are very inconsistent company to company. In some cases they are even inconsistent between models made by the same company. You very much need to look at the voltages, not the silly names.

Bob

[gator.bigfoot]

Whatever companies call it, most will list the charging profile for different settings, listing the voltages at a specific temperature. This will change based on temperature. A proper controller will accommodate this.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Whatever companies call it, most will list the charging profile for different settings, listing the voltages at a specific temperature. This will change based on temperature. A proper controller will accommodate this.

True....assuming:

1) The temp sensor is set up to be as close to the battery INTERNAL temperature as possible. This means a remote sensor attached to the battery and insulated from ambients as much as possible, as Victron recommends.

2) The profile of the temp compensation graph for the controller matches the temp comp profile from the battery manufacturer. They rarely do and even with a programmable controller/charger, if the slope of the graph does not match, there will be commonly experienced temperature ranges where there will be undercharging and overcharging occurring when using a single temp comp value year around.
I am discovering the need for a winter comp routine program and a summer comp routine program.

This issue is different for every battery brand and controller/charger brand.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Thanks Bob; I understand, but what is "different" vs the "smart conditioning" technology incorporated in the Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics models today? Both seem seem to offer technology for properly charging/maintaining batteries? Why would you need to remove to do a "reconditioning charge" outside on "the bench", if using this type technology...(inquiring minds want to know. )

I think the point here is; with an AGM a true equalization (reconditioning charge) is not recommended as a regular "maintenance" routine. Lifeline only recommends it as a "repair" procedure when capacity falls off as the battery ages.
When this occurs, one doesn't really know if the fall off is due to sulfation, escape of gasses (drying of absorbed solution), a shorted cell(or partial short) or some other condition. Because of this unknown, when you throw 15.48V at a battery for an extended period of time, it is best to have it in an environment where you can watch it closely for gassing and a potential thermal runaway if it happens to be shorted internally. This would be caused by a high voltage AND high amperage.
Contrary to a post above, Equalization is done at high voltage and a LOW amperage in a non-compromised battery. This is why Lifeline requires that you perform a full saturation charge cycle BEFORE performing an equalization (reconditioning) charge. A full battery will not accept high amperage (probably no more than an amp or two). If you start an EQ charge cycle with a low battery, it will gas excessively and heat up....with potentially bad consequences.
Again, if your battery ( or charger/controller) manufacturer calls a cycle voltage at the low to mid 14V range, an equalization cycle, that is a marketing misnomer. It is more accurately, an absorption saturation cycle, which is a good thing for regular maintenance.
At least that is what my research and experience tells me.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

I think the point here is; with an AGM a true equalization (reconditioning charge) is not recommended as a regular "maintenance" routine. Lifeline only recommends it as a "repair" procedure when capacity falls off as the battery ages.
When this occurs, one doesn't really know if the fall off is due to sulfation, escape of gasses (drying of absorbed solution), a shorted cell(or partial short) or some other condition. Because of this unknown, when you throw 15.48V at a battery for an extended period of time, it is best to have it in an environment where you can watch it closely for gassing and a potential thermal runaway if it happens to be shorted internally. This would be caused by a high voltage AND high amperage.
Contrary to a post above, Equalization is done at high voltage and a LOW amperage in a non-compromised battery. This is why Lifeline requires that you perform a full saturation charge cycle BEFORE performing an equalization (reconditioning) charge. A full battery will not accept high amperage (probably no more than an amp or two). If you start an EQ charge cycle with a low battery, it will gas excessively and heat up....with potentially bad consequences.
Again, if your battery ( or charger/controller) manufacturer calls a cycle voltage at the low to mid 14V range, an equalization cycle, that is a marketing misnomer. It is more accurately, an absorption saturation cycle, which is a good thing for regular maintenance.
At least that is what my research and experience tells me.

Hi

The whole high / low current thing quickly gets into a tangle. If the battery is doing fine and has no issues, you will push a bunch of current early on and it will taper off. It's just like any other charging process in that respect. However, this is not something you do to a battery in fine condition.

It even gets into what's "a lot of current". A solar setup may be doing great at a few amps out. That's not a lot of current into a 100AH battery. Some people like charging at C/1 ( so 100A on that same battery). This is not one of those situations. C/5 is (so 20A) is plenty for this process.

Depending on what the issues are, there may be quite a bit of current for quite a while. You are trying to blow this or that off / away. Depending on just what's there and how much of it, quite a bit power *may* be involved. It's very much a "that depends" sort of thing.

Bob

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The whole high / low current thing quickly gets into a tangle. If the battery is doing fine and has no issues, you will push a bunch of current early on and it will taper off. It's just like any other charging process in that respect. However, this is not something you do to a battery in fine condition.

It even gets into what's "a lot of current". A solar setup may be doing great at a few amps out. That's not a lot of current into a 100AH battery. Some people like charging at C/1 ( so 100A on that same battery). This is not one of those situations. C/5 is (so 20A) is plenty for this process.

Depending on what the issues are, there may be quite a bit of current for quite a while. You are trying to blow this or that off / away. Depending on just what's there and how much of it, quite a bit power *may* be involved. It's very much a "that depends" sort of thing.

Bob

Bob, if you start a conditioning, or eq, cycle on a healthy battery, but not fully charged battery, you will see high current. You shouldn't do that. Lifeline states that clearly in their technical manual. Conditioning cycle only on a battery which has completed a bulk and absorption saturation charge cycle....And has fallen off to float. In that scenario, the battery cannot accept more than an amp or two at 15+ volts.
Always, always fully charge before eq or conditioning.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Bob, if you start a conditioning, or eq, cycle on a healthy battery, but not fully charged battery, you will see high current. You shouldn't do that. Lifeline states that clearly in their technical manual. Conditioning cycle only on a battery which has completed a bulk and absorption saturation charge cycle....And has fallen off to float. In that scenario, the battery cannot accept more than an amp or two at 15+ volts.
Always, always fully charge before eq or conditioning.

Hi

If the battery actually *needs* the high voltage zap, it will indeed pull quite a bit of current. If that current isn't available, it will not get to the required voltage. That's why the battery heats up when doing this .....

Bob

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

If the battery actually *needs* the high voltage zap, it will indeed pull quite a bit of current. If that current isn't available, it will not get to the required voltage. That's why the battery heats up when doing this .....

Bob

Bob, that is correct. The battery is the determiner of amperage flow, not the charger/controller. The charger/controller commands voltage and always has full amperage output "available" at the ready (except in the moments/minutes just before a mode change, ie. bulk to absorption and absorption to float). Amperage flow is sensed by the controller/charger based upon its commanded voltage.
I think the point of all this, for this thread, is: if a battery is full and "healthy", running an EQ cycle in the trailer in order to "repair" a reduced capacity suspicion is probably OK. In this case, after fully charging, one should see low amperage and high voltage continuously through the 6 or 8 hour EQ cycle.
Problem is, one does not know if there is another issue causing your battery health suspicion. A partially shorted cell will cause high amperage and the commanded high voltage. Not good! Thus the recommendation to remove the batteries to a controlled environment to perform a repair Equalization/conditioning cycle.
Getting information from a controller/charger manufacturer relative to the minutia of their charge routine philosophy is very difficult. They are vague.
My beliefs come from watching the graphing function on the Victron app....and spending a lot of time doing so. I THINK my Iota charger works in a very similar manner as the Victron, but it has no history graphing function so I have to switch screen readouts on the Trimetric. That is too slow a process to get really precise information.

My intention here is not to contradict, but to check my learnings. I think my biggest take away is that the battery dictates its needs for amperage to the charger/controller and the charger/controller commands voltage. It senses current and bases its voltage commands on current flow.

Lest someone think that this is just another engineering exercise, let me say that when I got my new AGMs and was looking to program the Victron, a warning pops up relative to "expert mode". I take those warnings seriously and it would be real easy to program a potentially hazardous routine (EQ in particular). At a minimum, it is super easy to program values which will significantly reduce battery life.

Again, the only time you should see high amperage AND high voltage when starting an EQ cycle, is if the battery isn't fully charged beforehand...OR if there is a battery fault.

What could "mask" this high current issue is if your batteries are supplying a load to the coach while charging, there is naturally amperage going to loads. This current is NOT passing through the battery, thus is a "false" battery parameter. The total amperage shows on the controller output though. My belief is that the controller uses this output level as a baseline for judging battery current acceptance as it commands voltage.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Bob, that is correct. The battery is the determiner of amperage flow, not the charger/controller. The charger/controller commands voltage and always has full amperage output "available" at the ready (except in the moments/minutes just before a mode change, ie. bulk to absorption and absorption to float). Amperage flow is sensed by the controller/charger based upon its commanded voltage.
I think the point of all this, for this thread, is: if a battery is full and "healthy", running an EQ cycle in the trailer in order to "repair" a reduced capacity suspicion is probably OK. In this case, after fully charging, one should see low amperage and high voltage continuously through the 6 or 8 hour EQ cycle.
Problem is, one does not know if there is another issue causing your battery health suspicion. A partially shorted cell will cause high amperage and the commanded high voltage. Not good! Thus the recommendation to remove the batteries to a controlled environment to perform a repair Equalization/conditioning cycle.
Getting information from a controller/charger manufacturer relative to the minutia of their charge routine philosophy is very difficult. They are vague.
My beliefs come from watching the graphing function on the Victron app....and spending a lot of time doing so. I THINK my Iota charger works in a very similar manner as the Victron, but it has no history graphing function so I have to switch screen readouts on the Trimetric. That is too slow a process to get really precise information.

My intention here is not to contradict, but to check my learnings. I think my biggest take away is that the battery dictates its needs for amperage to the charger/controller and the charger/controller commands voltage. It senses current and bases its voltage commands on current flow.

Lest someone think that this is just another engineering exercise, let me say that when I got my new AGMs and was looking to program the Victron, a warning pops up relative to "expert mode". I take those warnings seriously and it would be real easy to program a potentially hazardous routine (EQ in particular). At a minimum, it is super easy to program values which will significantly reduce battery life.

Again, the only time you should see high amperage AND high voltage when starting an EQ cycle, is if the battery isn't fully charged beforehand...OR if there is a battery fault.

What could "mask" this high current issue is if your batteries are supplying a load to the coach while charging, there is naturally amperage going to loads. This current is NOT passing through the battery, thus is a "false" battery parameter. The total amperage shows on the controller output though. My belief is that the controller uses this output level as a baseline for judging battery current acceptance as it commands voltage.

Hi

What you *always* will see (good battery or bad battery) is the higher voltage turning the fluid in the battery into gas. That's what happens at higher voltages. Since you are doing a *lot* of it (good battery or bad), even with a "sealed" battery, that gas is going to vent. There's just to much of it for the normal "recovery" process to handle.

If you have a wet cell, this all is pretty normal and you top up the fluid. With an AGM, you don't have that option. What you have driven off can not be replaced. It's gone for good. Do it on a regular basis and your battery dies early.

Bob

[gator.bigfoot]

Getting 9 years out of a crappy charger isn't bad. What would I get with a good charger. I guess I'm going to find out. I'm going on 6 years now. Not that I gave up on the other batteries. I used them in my workshop to run 12 volt stuff. Now after 14 years one battery has completely died. I'm not disappointed with the results. The AGM in my car is 13 years old. It is getting replaced tomorrow since in the cold weather it can't start the old diesel. Again not bad for a car battery and charging system. Again I'm not disappointed with the performance.

[gccoates]

I just finished installing a new PD4655V in my 2019 16’ Caravel. Took a bit longer than expected but it worked out well. The main confusion I had was the lack of a VCC+ port. I joined the two red positives in the available port on the new board. It all works except my battery disconnect switch. Is that because the convertor has this function built in?