Progressive Dynamics PD9260 vs PD2160

[gklott]

9260 is listed for RV service, but the web site explicitly says for the 9200 family "All Models Available for Lead-Acid or Gel-Cell Batteries."

2160 is for marine service, and the converter has a specific AGM mode. It is UL listed for Marine use.

So for AGM, seems the 2160 is what you must use. Does anyone have experience with the 2160 in RV use?

73/gus

[lewster]

Originally Posted by gklott

9260 is listed for RV service, but the web site explicitly says for the 9200 family "All Models Available for Lead-Acid or Gel-Cell Batteries."

2160 is for marine service, and the converter has a specific AGM mode. It is UL listed for Marine use.

So for AGM, seems the 2160 is what you must use. Does anyone have experience with the 2160 in RV use?

73/gus

Their stated 13.9VDC as 'boost' mode is still low for most AGMs as a bulk/absorb charge. Lifeline specifies 14.2-14.4VDC for this, so this device will never fully charge the batteries. Equalization is never recommended for an AGM either.

[gklott]

Based on the LifeLine technical manual, at 70 F, the AGM charge voltage should be 14.41V. According to the Rolls support, charge should be 14.82V. So the PD 9260 lead-acid profile matches this.

Lifeline Tech manual also says the Conditioning Charge (PD 92560 Equalizing Charge) should be applied for 8 hours at 15.58V, not the PD 15 minutes at 14.4V.

So do I read this properly: no one should use Progressive Dynamics 92xx converters for AGM batteries?

Which RV converters have the correct AGM voltages and cycles? I cannot find one that matches the Trojan, Rolls, or LifeLine profiles.

73/gus

[KJRitchie]

I know Magnum inverter/converter have custom settings but they start at almost $1000 plus you have to buy the monitor to make the changes. AGM1 is one of the settings which is for Lifeline or you customize each part of the charge cycle. Been researching inverter options and may go with the 1000w MMS1012 inverter charger.

Kelvin

[lewster]

That's an inverter/'charger'. 😁


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[KJRitchie]

Brain fart.

[gklott]

After significant research and many calls, I have not found any traditional RV or marine "converter/charger" that meets battery manufacturer specifications for charging AGM batteries. When you ask for the details from the retailers and the manufacturers, none of them have it right.

So I too am looking at the more sophisticated charger/inverters such as the:
- Magnum MMS1012-G
- Outback Sealed FX2012MT (60 Hz) or Sealed GFX1312 (60Hz)
and the various controller panel options. These also give me greater battery selection options.

These are more expensive, but they provide properly tuned charging voltage settings and are fully battery temperature compensating. I can use or turn off the inverter when not needed.

I am also researching the best MPPT solar charging controller to add when I do the upgrade. My AS has the solar panel wiring, which is in the refrigerator compartment. Since the installed wiring is #10, I want to use a 400W solar panel string at a higher string OCV to lower the current. For that, I am looking to add something like:
- Outback FlexMax 60-Amp Charge Controller
- Morningstar TS-MPPT-45/60

Plan to update the entire DC wiring core system up front under the sofa. The current layout is a mess. You practically need to remove the sofa to change one of the fuses in the box for the 6 interior DC circuits and the taillight circuits.

So the research and design continues.

73/gus

[KJRitchie]

I have the Progressive Dynamics 4655. The manual states
BOOST Mode 14.4 Volts - Rapidly brings RV battery up to 90% of full charge.
NORMAL Mode 13.6 Volts - Safely completes the charge.
STORAGE Mode 13.2 Volts - Maintains charge with minimal gassing or water loss.
EQUALIZATION Mode 14.4 Volts - Every 21 hours for a period of 15 minutes prevents battery stratification & sulfation - the leading cause of battery failure.

The 14.4 boost mode falls in range for Lifelines according to Lew.

Looking at the 9200 user manual it shows the same specs. This is with the Charge Wizard.

Kelvin

[lewster]

............according to Lifeline :-))


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[gklott]

Recommend Table 5-1, Technical Manual for Lifeline Batteries, rev D, that lists the 14.41 for 70 deg F charge, 13.39 float. At lower temps, say 50 F, you need 14.7 and 13.7. Table 5-2 lists 15.58 V at 70F conditioning (equalizing) charge applied for 8 hours only when the battery has reduced capacity.

Trojan AGM-31
Charge at 77F 14.1-14.7, Float 13.5, Equalize 15.5 2-4 hours

Rolls R12-100AGM
Charge at 77F 14.6-14.8, Float 13.6-13.8

Each manufacturer has specifications, and the voltages are important.

PS9260 Charge Wizard
Charge 14.4, Float 13.6 at all temps. But, most importantly, the PD web site says that the 9260 is for lead-acid and gel batteries, not AGM.

Can you point me to an RV converter/charger that is specified for AGM batteries, has adjustable charging voltages, has selectable charging modes, is temperature compensated, and works well with a MPPT solar charger?

73/gus

[KJRitchie]

No temperature compensation for the Progressive Dynamics converter/chargers. Probably with the OEM and PD chargers get the cheapest deep cycle/hybrid flooded you can find so you can affordably replace them. With AGMs move up to a programmable charger like a Magnum model.

Kelvin

[MarkR]

So PD's website markets their "Charge Wizard" for use w/ "Lead Acid and AGM Batteries" . . . my PD9245 has an integral "Charge Wizard", so I've been "comfortable" w/ my recent purchase of AGM's . . . until reading this thread . . . does anyone have actual experience using the "Charge Wizzard" w/ AGM's . . . bad or good?

[lewster]

I think there is a bit of over thinking here. If you put an accurate meter on the output of any converter, you will see fluctuations in the output voltage…..especially within the hundredths of a volt listed in a post above. Inverters also show some fluctuation within these parameters.

Batteries are more resilient than you think! The biggest concern should be about adjusting the charge voltage for the battery temperature as read via a terminal mounted bolt-on sensor (like Magnum uses) as opposed to worrying about hitting the bills eye for the recommended charge voltage.

Lifeline recommends a range of voltages for the bulk/absorb phase (14.2-14.4VDC) and 13.2-13.4VDC for float and more specifically @ 25ºC/77ºF, 14.3VDC for bulk/absorb and 13.3VDC for float. After several phone conferences with the gurus at Lifeline, their best choice (speaking about converters ONLY) for the closest unit to their charging specifications was the Progressive Dynamics converters with Charge Wizard (which is integrated into their newer units). They realize that nothing is perfect and that there are many folks using converter/chargers with Lifelines and are still getting good to excellent longevity from their battery banks.

I try to use Magnum inverter/chargers when installing new, larger AGM banks as it is easy to program to the exact range required and has full, automatic temperature compensation. I NEVER set any AGM charging system for automatic conditioning (also called equalization) as performing this without a completely full battery or under unsupervised or non-ideal conditions WILL have a great potential for ruining the battery. Severe overcharging and thermal runaway are the results I have seen when this technique is not done perfectly to specification.

I have used several marine chargers that had internally adjustable programming for the charge levels, and recently completed a 48VDC golf cart re-power ( 4 X Lifeline GPL-30HT 12VDC batteries @150 amp/hours each) with a Pro Mariner 30 amp 4 battery charging unit. This was set at the factory for their AGM profile., but had to be re-adjusted for Lifelines as their normal AGM bulk/absorb charge was too high for them. Each battery has it's own individual charge circuit as there are different draws on each, above the 48VDC power motor.

Here in FL, the warmer temperatures actually made their 'gel' setting almost perfect for the Lifelines in the absence of full temperature compensation.

If you are totally concerned about giving your batteries the BEST charge possible, then a fully programmable inverter/charger is the only way to go, unless of course you have solar, then a Blue Sky solar charge controller with their iPN-PRO remote will have the same programming capabilities.

If you want to stop worrying about temperature compensation…………………..….GO LITHIUM!!!!

[fran&frank]

Can Lew or someone else confirm, though, that the Blue Sky solar charge controller is only going to regulate charging from solar? I still need to worry about charging when plugged in? I have the factory solar package with 2 50 w panels, 2 Lifeline AGMs, and a PVCM25D solar charge controller. So my thinking was my first improvement would be to replace the factory converter with a Progressive Dynamics converter with Charge Wizard; not sure I spend much more that that for a more sophisiticated one. Then to upgrade the solar later I might add a 100 w panel and upgrade the solar controller?

[lewster]

A Blue Sky solar charge controller will only regulate the input from either a solar array or wind generator. It will not control the charging process when in grid power, but will still operate regardless when plugged in.

The PD 4655 is still your least expensive option for on-grid charging, even though it's not perfect.

If you intent to increase the size of your solar array and use an MPPT charge controller, you should first check that all of the panels' output voltages are within 0.3VDC, as at larger differential will confuse the MPPT function.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters***Victron Energy Components
541-490-6357

[rodsterinfl]

The biggest problem with any battery is OVERcharging. For the most part, AGMs are happy with flooded battery settings. The problem is the 14.8V range. According to Deka, their AGM spec is up to 2.4V per cell (x6) for charging (14.4V) with a float of around 13.2V. All the cycles on the PD4655 are within the tolerances though the 15 minute "burn off" is unnecessary on the AGM but it is at 14.4V anyway.

[68 Overlander]

On my 11th year with Lifline batteries and a PD Converter. Pair of of group 24s and PD9245 to be exact. Not saying they aren't getting a little tired but they are still holding charge after 10 years.