No power 12 V system...stumped.

[Brow324]

Last campout was a hot one. During the last day the 30/20 breaker for the lights, a/c thermostat, and stereo kept breaking. Upon arrival home I could not gt any 12v systems to come on, even with shore power connected. So I replaced the 30/20 breaker that had been kicking off all day.

So today the new breaker is in and all 120v systems are working fine but still no 12 v systems are working. No int or ext lights, no stereo, no a/c thermostat, and the battery store switch is not working. Fuses all look good. I checked the battery connections...all good. Unless it's a fuse that is blown under the plastic corner edging and I'm not seeing it I'm stumped.

any ideas? inverter issues?

[masseyfarm]

Bump
On my Clipper the inverter has two pushbutton reset breakers.

Dave

Originally Posted by Brow324

Last campout was a hot one. During the last day the 30/20 breaker for the lights, a/c thermostat, and stereo kept breaking. Upon arrival home I could not gt any 12v systems to come on, even with shore power connected. So I replaced the 30/20 breaker that had been kicking off all day.

So today the new breaker is in and all 120v systems are working fine but still no 12 v systems are working. No int or ext lights, no stereo, no a/c thermostat, and the battery store switch is not working. Fuses all look good. I checked the battery connections...all good. Unless it's a fuse that is blown under the plastic corner edging and I'm not seeing it I'm stumped.

any ideas? inverter issues?

[HowieE]

More than likely there is a fuse in the battery output that has blown. You should remove one of the battery terminal wires on each battery and check the batteries. Use a voltmeter of you have one if not just jumper a 12 bulb across the battery with a short wire. If the batteries are good you are then searching for the blown fuse.

[Brow324]

My local RV service guy said that the problem is likely between the batteries and the inverter somewhere since I'm getting 110v throughout and no 12v. Could be a bad inverter but he thinks it's probably a fuse issue. Also need to recheck the fuses to make sure I'm not overlooking a blown fuse that is just hard to see the break.
And need to locate the inverter and the battery output fuse...
07 Safari 27FB

[HowieE]

The inverter will have input fuses on the 110 side and output fuses on the 12 volt side. There may be a circuit breaker between the inverter and the batteries. That breaker should be a selfresetting type and not likely the problem.

Check those batteries before you go chasing around. No batteries no 12 volts.

[Brow324]

Ok...just checked the AS owners manual on line and the fused/breaker panel is the main access to the power converter and all serviceable areas are there on the panel...there is no reset noted in the manual that I've noticed ...just fuses and breakers. But I'll pull the converter paperwork tonight to be sure.
Also, I'm going to look for a fused connection between the batteries and the converter (which should be readily accessible) and pull the panel fuses relative to my problem and run a continuity check on them for good measure. And will check the batteries too. Hopefully it's something simple. Gotta be since it's the 12V system. Will get back with an update tonite or tomorrow...thanks!

[Brow324]

after another check here's what I'm finding. Battery power is good. DC current is getting from the batteries to the connection terminal in the front storage compartment where the battery leads connect to a multi terminal and ground terminal then jump to a capacitor looking thing with two blade fuses and a relay attached to it's top. Both of those fuses are good. But I'm not getting DC current coming out of that capacitor looking/relay. What is that? Could it be fried? Or could the relay be stuck? No DC is getting past that to the main breaker panel and all fuses are good at the main panel.
here's a photo of that thing...ground terminal is not in the photo and located lower down on the mounting board out of view. I'm getting current at the connection terminal, on the far right RED connection, but not on the left Red terminal or on either of the Red terminals on that device to the right.



that thing is very difficult to get to BTW and requires me to be completely inside the small storage compartment laying on my backside and working upside down with legs straddling the propane tank mount...ugh...so I'm thinking this might be a good repair for the RV Service center nearby.

[richinny]

how about a picture?

[richinny]

it looks like the use/store relay. i'm sure someone here will know how to test it.

[HowieE]

That is an interesting event. It is a solenoid to switch 12 on. Not sure what controls it. Was it part of the solar installation?

Do the 2 fuses on it check out OK?

Disconnect the solar and just attach the 2 heavy red wires if you want 12 volts until you can figure it out.

[TG Twinkie]

Can you follow the large red wire connected to the left side of the solenoid? It is labelled "Battery". I would expect to read 12 volts there with a meter. There must be a switch somewhere to control the solenoid, which would be wired to the smaller (brown) wire on the solenoid.
It is not clear to me what the 2 large red wires on the terminal strip to the left are connected. Can you give us some more info?
Without going back thru this thread and having to retype this. Do you have a battery in the trailer? Is there a battery cutout knife switch that may be open?

[Silver Goose]

Here's a diagram for the wiring of the battery isolator relay you sent pictures of. There is a push on connector where the wiring harness connects to the rear of the switch panel. The switch toggles the relay to connect or remove the battery/batteries from the trailers internal circuits and converter. The relay needs at least 10.5v to switch from one state to the other. The pair of fuses mounted on the relay assy protect the switch panel as best I can tell as they are only 5a.

In any case, if the relay was stuck in the Store position, the converter would still provide 12v to the interior trailer circuits assuming the converter was functioning and connected to shore power. My suspicion from your description is that your converter is not getting 110v to operate or is not providing dc output and your batteries are run down enough to not allow the relay to toggle to the Use position.

The converter is located in the lower section of the box where you replaced the circuit breaker. It has a fan... At a minimum, you should be able to hear the fan after switching the circuit breakers on. If so recheck your 12v fuses with an ohmmeter. A fuse that looks good may actually fail the meter check. The DC fuse distribution panel is located to the right of the 110v circuit breakers. The row of fuses along the bottom of the board each protect a specific 12v interior circuit. There are a pair of fuses just above them that are in the circuit between the converter and battery charge line and the distribution board. If you have a fuse problem, those would be prime suspects.

If you look closely at that distribution board, you should see 3 lugs and there should be some printing on the board that identify them. One is the 12v common (ground). One is connected to the converter +12v output and the 3rd is the +12v line that goes to the isolator relay and then on to the battery depending on the state of the relay. If the 2 fuses just mentioned are good and the converter is operating, you should see 12v on your voltmeter at both of these 12v lugs.

[Silver Goose]

As a fellow Texan with a '08 27 FB, I believe our trailers are wired similarly and I also have experienced the 30a/20a double breaker tripping on hot days. The 30a half is the main line breaker that provides 110v to all the 20a breakers. The 20a half on mine provided power to the A/C. As they share the same housing, the heat generated within the combo causes the breaker to trip prematurely. I moved the line going to the A/C to a different 20a breaker and the lower drawing line to to the 20a half and my breakers stopped tripping on hot days. While you have the shore power disconnected, check each breaker circuit for tightness. A screw that isn't snug on the wire will generate heat that conducts into the breaker causing premature tripping.

[Brow324]

use/store relay makes sense. However, my batteries are now pretty well drained and only reading 4v now so it's clear that the converter isn't recharging the batteries.

The two fuses on top of the relay check out ok.

HowieE what do you mean by Solar installation? And, are you saying I can bypass the use/store relay (easy enough) and get 12v running to further diagnose?

Silver Goose- I get no reading on any of the lugs at the converter panel. Beginning to wonder if the converter is kaput since it hasn't been recharging the batteries either. Thanks for that breaker wiring tip, gonna do that for sure.

I've got a separate charger on each of the two batteries and maybe by morning I can get the relay to toggle, then maybe get the tongue jack moving, hook up and take to Holiday World in Mesquite to have it fixed since my time is limited this week. And that doesn't get enough 12v flowing to trip the relay I will either have to bypass that solenoid/relay and get some power to the jack or wire directly from a battery to the jack to get hooked up.

[Brow324]

here is another photo of the connection area.
the Main battery cable coming up from the floorboard (red) connects to the far right strip connector terminal.
The left red cable connects to the left side of the use/store unit.
The right red cable coming from the use/store unit goes thru the chassis to the converter in the cabin.
On the lower left you'll see the grounding block. The two larger white cables on the right end are the negative cable from the battery (larger wire next to the main ground wire) and the negative lead to the converter ( just left of the battery wire).


IF I bypass the unit by coupling the main battery cable (red) to the red cable on the right side of the use/store unit (removing from the unit) ...say with a nut/bolt to link the two together, thus sending a straight 12V line to the converter, without the use/store unit in play, would that suffice for a short term fix to supply a safe 12v supply to the trailer, pending further diagnosing and repair? Considering that the converter itself may not be malfunctioning? That would just take the use/store relay out of the chain, which should be okay, shouldn't it?

[Phoenix]

WARNING: If you are unfamiliar with low voltage (e.g., automobile) circuits, you may wish to have a knowledgeable person help you with the troubleshooting instructions below; because some of the steps could possibly damage the wiring in your Airstream. Also, while the following does not involve 110 volt AC circuits, if you do work on the AC wiring, you should be aware of safety requirements to avoid electrocution.

===============

See Important Note at end of of this post.

The USE/STORE switch is very similar to an old Ford starter solenoid. The +12v goes in on the left side of the solenoid in the photo and comes out on the right (both are heavy gauge red wires). The two smaller terminals turn the switch ON and OFF by reversing the polarity on these two wires.

If the terminal labeled "S" (brown wire) measures +12 volts, the switch is ON and both red terminals should measure +12 volts (ground lead on voltmeter should be connected to the ground bus bar at lower left in photo).

If the terminal labeled "I" (white wire) measures +12 volts, the switch is OFF; and only the red terminal on the left should measure +12 volts. The terminal on the right should measure zero.

Note: The "S" and "I" terminals should not measure +12 volts at the same time; one should measure +12, while the other measures zero (ground).

I'd remove and check the two fuses located on top of the solenoid with an Ohmmeter to make sure they are not open. If you get continuity on both, and the red terminal on the right measures zero; the solenoid is probably not turned on.

Also, if the large gauge red wire on the left side measures significantly less than +12 volts (e.g., less than +10.5 volts) with shore power disconnected, your batteries are discharged and the solenoid may not operate reliably. However, if you have shore power connected, I believe that you should read +12 to +13.5 volts on this wire whether or not your batteries are discharged; because I think this is connected to the +12 volt output of the converter, which also charges the batteries.

To test the solenoid, you can manually turn it ON and OFF by connecting +12 volts to either the "S" or "I" terminal, and connecting ground to the remaining terminal. However, you should disconnect and insulate the existing brown and white wires to prevent sending these voltages backwards to the USE/STORE switch and possible blowing out other fuses or burning up wires.

IMPORTANT NOTE: You may wish to check both of your batteries before performing the above tests. If they are discharged or dead, you may get unpredictable results; and your problem may just be bad batteries. This is especially true, if they are the original (five year-old) OEM batteries.

[Brow324]

Thanks Phoenix, I understand that completely. It appears that right now the switch is off. I am charging up the batteries to test the voltage at all points on the solenoid. Good news is I have power flowing to the tongue jack this morning.

Re; Bad batteries; Batteries are only 12 mo old. This issue developed between unplugging from a State Park and making a 90 mile drive home and reconnecting to the shore power at home. The breaker kept tripping at the park hookup whenever we ran the A/C and microwave simultaneously. I went thru my usual tear down/pack for home routine, unplugged, drove home, reconnected and had no 12V power once home. All was working fine at the park, except for the breaker tripping.

[HowieE]

You had mentioned that you did not have voltage on the left Red wire on the terminal block. Is that correct? I would think that terminal block should have voltage on all studs. If you do not have voltage on the left side wire use a heavy wire and jump from the right side terminal to the output side of the solenoid. That should give you lights. If so the terminal block has opened, not something I would expect but then again we are troubleshooting and you have to test everything in series.

Studying that diagram as best I can with a small screen my first question is have you located the control panel and made sure the switch is not in the storage position. If the switch is in the usage position the solenoid should pull in and give 12 volts on the output side of the solenoid.

If you have voltage on one side of the solenoid not take the heavy jumper wire touch it across the 2 terminal on the solenoid and you should have light in the trailer. If that works the problem is in the switch or it system.

If you have a granddaughter like mine she has most likely turned the switch off without you knowing it.

[Brow324]

The switch in the cabin is inactive...does nothing...because no 12v is getting past the solenoid. Funny thing though...I got out of bed at midnight or 1am last night and went out to check the tongue jack for power so I could hook up this morning...got no power to the jack and went back to bed. This morning I remembered that I'd disconnected the batteries when I put the chargers on them...duh. Reconnected the batteries this morning and went ahead and hooked up and took the AS to my local RV service center. It's just so danged hot and humid here my brain cells start to fizz if I'm out in it too long. And I suspect it's an issue with that solenoid/relay.
I still have a year on the ext warranty so I'm gonna let them fix it. I gave them all my diagnostic info and they're going to check the system components and fix...said they'd have it back to me in 2 or 3 days. When I get it back I'll update this thread on what the gremlin was.

[HowieE]

Go back and check the switch now that the batteries are hooked up. If there is 12 volts on one side of the solenoid there will be 12 volts to the switch. If the switch is in the on position and the solenoid should pull in. If not the problem is in the solenoid control system.

Can I assume you have tested the 2 small fuses on the solenoid. The one on the left is the one that feed voltage to the switch.