Lithiums: Is my dealer giving me the straight scoop?

[RandyNH]

Yes, if dipping toes, connecting to existing systems, or anything where you aren't completely designing an entire system, the BattleBorn are the way to go. They are more expensive up front because they build the BMS into each battery, so that the exterior controller doesn't matter. Their reviews have all been really positive.

But not any lithium can be connected to that system as a plug and play.

[TravlinMan]

Yep it is interesting for sure.

I'm not ready to spend $900 on a battery yet though. I figure if I added another AGM to my aux setup, which is 100amp hours right now (50 useable), it'd be less than $300. That gets me the same useable amp hours as that lithium for less money. But with more weight and more bulk so that's the trade-off. When the battleborn prices come down more I will probably buy one and move the agms to the trailer.

Keepin in modular, folks.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

I am aware of one brand of Lithium battery that says it works fine with a standard multi-stage charger. There may be others. I don't have these myself, but they look interesting. There is at least one thread here that discusses them at length. Search and ye shall find: https://battlebornbatteries.com/

Thanks for the link. I'll have to ask the dealer if perhaps these are the Lithium batteries that they use. FWIW, the tech did mention that they waited a couple of years for the "right" product before jumping on the Lithium bandwagon.

[TravlinMan]

Hello, Mike. What dealer is this?

Thank you.

[sgschwend]

There is more than one Lithium battery chemistry which to the user results in a different battery working voltage.

If you go with Lithium Ion Batteries using your installed charger/power supply it would be good to know which chemistry to work with.

My guess is they are referring to: LiFePO4

[wcrockett]

Agree. Well written.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One stupid / simple way to address the lithium cold charge issue is a heat pad. Fire it up with whatever you are charging the battery from. Start charging when the temperature probe says it's ok to start. Once you are dumping gobs of current into the batteries, you probably can turn off the heat pad. The batteries will warm themselves up from there. Batteries stay outdoors. Some day we probably will see integrated controllers that work this sort of thing out all on their own. We're not quite there yet.

Yes, this only fixes the "25F" sort of issue. To me, that's a cold snap you didn't expect. It's not going to work as well for 0F. There are a *lot* of things on an AS that have issues when it's that cold for extended periods. For that matter, normal (no temperature probe) chargers aren't very good at topping up lead acid batteries down there. That plus the low temperature capacity drop creates some pretty big issues. Even with the probe, how sure are you that the rest of your systems will be happy above 15V ....hmmmm.....

Bob

[SCOTTinNJ]

Rumor has it that lithiums don't enjoy really elevated temperatures either, for long term life. Check out some of technomadia's writings.

I installed mine in the trailer to help mitigate all of the above.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by TravlinMan

Hello, Mike. What dealer is this?

Thank you.

Hi TravlinMan. The dealer is Bay Area Airstream Adventures and they have an excellent reputation; we, at least, have been treated well there. It's just that the info I got from the tech at BAAA seemed at odds with my admittedly limited knowledge about Lithium batteries so I thought I'd ask for input here. I'm still learning...

[uncle_bob]

Hi

With *any* battery type there is a wide variation between what you get from manufacturer A vs manufacturer B. It's no different from tires, beer, or shoes. Brand A lithiums may catch fire and burn out the inside of your RV. Brand B might be immune to the specific problem that caused the fire. Brand A lead acid's may run for 6 years treated a certain way. Brand B lead acids may run for < 1 year treated the same way. Sorting out all of that with limited data .... good luck.

Bob

[interstateflyer]

AM Solar in Springfield, OR (Eugene) are probably the foremost installers of lithium batteries in Airstreams. I would trust their input. I suspect that they have a lot more experience with lithium installs than BayArea Airstream.http://amsolar.com

[mikeinca]

I have a lot of leg work to do (not to mention actually acquiring a new Classic) before I make a decision on Lithium batteries and getting information from known experts like AM Solar will be part of the program. What I've learned to date through this discussion, though, is that given the availability of a drop-in Lithium upgrade like that described in the Battle Born battery thread, the tech from Bay Area Airstream apparently wasn't blowing smoke....something I hoped to find out when I started this thread.

[TinkersToy]

[QUOTE=mikeinca;1976208]We're just about ready to pull the trigger on an upgrade from our 25' FC to order a new 2018 30' Classic. (Should never have visited the dealer showroom again! )

Anyway, while there, I was discussing the subject of batteries with one of the techs. Unless I blanked out and completely misunderstood, he told me that the new 3 stage converter in the 2018's was "certified" for use with Lithium batteries and that if I wanted to do an upgrade it would be a simple matter to install them. The impression I got was that no other equipment was necessary. He said that Group 27 Lithiums could be installed in the battery box in place of the lead acid units, or a larger Lithium battery could be installed elsewhere in the trailer, say a 300W unit in the rear cargo compartment.

I don't know a lot about Lithium batteries, but I thought that a location external to the trailer (like the battery box) was not a good environment for them and that they required a special charge controller for optimum service and life. Does it sound like the tech was giving me the straight scoop? The dealer has apparently done a lot of Lithium upgrades so I would hope that they know what they are doing.

[We purchased 100AH BattleBorn Lithium Ion (LIon) battery manufactured in USA (Nevada) that weighs 29 pounds and so far works great. It is charged using the AS 22FB Sport factory 3-stage charger that bulk charges about 14.4 volts and floats at 13.6 volts. The battery is equipped with a built in management system so no special charger is necessary. I have tested it running the refrigerator, roof fan and all interior LED lighting for 6-hours with very minor drop in voltage. No issues during 5-day boon docking. The LIon Battery provides the full 100 AH as compared to a Lead Acid with around 50% of the rated AH, and it recharges much quicker, has no fumes, and it weighs much less. There are a number of cost studies showing savings over the life of the LIon battery compared to an equivalent deep cell lead acid.]

[Tbeck11931]

Contact AM solar Lew Farber he's on this forum

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by TinkersToy

We purchased 100AH BattleBorn Lithium Ion ... I have tested it running the refrigerator, roof fan and all interior LED lighting for 6-hours with very minor drop in voltage.

With Lithium Ion batteries you won't be able to determine state of charge (SOC) using voltage like you can with lead acid batteries. The lithium show the same voltage throughout the discharge cycle and then suddenly drop in voltage when they are depleted. To manage your usage you need a battery monitor that shows amps in/out/remaining.

[graysailor]

Being that you bought the trailer at Bay Area Airstream then I would listen to them. They are by far the best AS dealer I have dealt with. Their service department is not equalled by any dealer that I have had occasion to visit. They did great work on my 2016 Classic.

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

...Lithiums are great batteries in terms of power per weight or power per volume. They loose out badly on power per dollar.

While Bob's advice (especially in his reply to the original poster) is good and his information correct, I take exception to his claim that Lithiums can't compete in cost against AGM or other lead acid batteries.

If I can get a 15 year life out of my 300Ah Lithium battery bank, that equals three sets of AGMs out of which I was happy to get a five year life. And the cost is about the same. The many advantages of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries argue for them, and the cost -- if you take the long view -- is comparable.

Michael

[OTRA15]

Thanks for this and other more recent clarifications.

Peter

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

Peter,

You are missing nothing. If you camp with an inside temp of 25 F then Lithium batteries are not for you. I guess you must keep your trailer winterized if you let it get that cold inside. Seems like your scenario is tent camping with an Aluminum shell, so why bother with any electricity? I think the Lithium shortcoming impacts very few campers and the advantages of Lithium far outweigh the one weakness.
Larry

[switz]

We put a 600 amp-hour lithium iron phosphate battery under the sofa in the front of our 2014 Classic. It weighed just 168 pounds and replaced four Lifeline 6Vdc 300 amp-hour AGM batteries that each weighed 96 pounds. Our tongue weight dropped from 1,375 to 1,175 pounds. We have nine 100 watt solar panels on the roof. That new 600 amp-hour battery can actually run one or the other air conditioner without shore power for a finite period of time.

In our 2015 23D we put a 300 amp-hour lithium ion phosphate battery that weighed 84 pounds just in front of the street side wheel well. That weighs less than the two stock lead acid batteries and gives me about 250 amp-hours of power. We have five 100 watt solar panels on the roof of the 23D.

These two batteries want to be warm to be charged, so solar can keep them topped up on the sunny days.

Note that the propane lek detector is never turned off in a stock trailer and could drain the batteries over a period of time. Also the sub-woofer on all three Airstreams we have owned were always powered drawing power 24/7. So these parasite loads need to be found and neutralized if at all possible for long term no shore power storage.

[sgschwend]

In 2018 Victron has reported they will release a US version with updated software for their smart charger. It is a high efficiency charger that will cost approximately 1/2 the price of their current offerings. The charging parameters will be user accessible, hence it will work with a wide variety of batteries or battery chemistries. The European version in production now uses wireless communication to a smart phone/cell phone.

My first 200 AH lithium battery has done a nice job, coming up to the first year of use.

I am presently working on a marine version that is 400 AH and higher voltage to better accommodate electric motor type loads. Repurposing Li-ion batteries has lowered my cost per AH to under a $1/AH.