Lithiums: Is my dealer giving me the straight scoop?

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

There are lots of advantages to Lithium Ion batteries...
Dan

<<A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions. LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material.>>

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

...Obviously you have accepted the very low risk of fire from the lithium batteries being inside?

Peter,
Perhaps you are confusing LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) which is a nontoxic material, with the hazardous LiCoO2 (Lithium-Ion)? I believe LiFeP04 is safer inside a trailer than either flooded cell or AGM, although a trusted friend told me he doesn't hesitate to install Lifeline AGM under a trailer bed. He relies upon them never outgassing.

Best,
Michael

[TravlinMan]

I prefer not to mount batteries under my bed no matter what kind they are. Just don't like em there. But yes, lifep04 are non-toxic... Though, as someone pointed out any battery can catch fire. I haven't seen lithiums marketed to withstand the type of abuse certain AGMs can, I don't know much about how they take to a lot of bumpin and bouncin. But I didn't plan on puttin my AGMs inside. just in the battery box where the interstates are now. I ain't against lithiums at all I'm definitely gonna buy one and start playing with it within the next year or so but I ain't gonna be spendin $15k to have someone put one under my bed, I'm gonna find a way to do it that works best for me.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Just as AGM's are *usually* safe indoors, there are issues that can take out any battery. That applies to various lithium chemistries in various ways. The main data we normally focus on from manufacturers on any battery type is charge cycles. It does not tell the whole story, but it certainly is a significant part of the story.

Using your AS 10 times a year for 6 years *might* give you 60 charge cycles. It also could give you 6,000 cycles. Best guess is that for most of us, the lead acid battery does not make it to the glorious 600 to 1200 cycles claimed "life" limit. Something else kills it first. It does so enough times that people rarely are happy with lead acids much past six years.

If you talk to the guys who run stuff like golf carts, the cycle numbers (from some manufacturers) are realistic. They hit them in a year or two. The bigger the "fleet" of carts / fork lifts / whatever , the more likely they are to have pretty darn good records. Getting at that data often is not very easy. They see their knowledge of which batteries last longer as a competitive edge.

Is there something out there lurking in the weeds that is an issue with this or that lithium approach? Testing can only get you so far. Samsung spent a lot of money on testing. The RV market is *tiny* battery wise. We are (at least as a group) not known for price is no object batteries. (How many are set up with Rolls-Surrette batteries right now?). Pouring a lot of money into research on RV specific needs has almost no payback. Those putting them in RV's right now *are* the research being done. Phone back in 20 years to see how it all worked out

None of this is to say that lithiums are *not* going to outlast lead acid's by a wide margin. They may well do so. Betting on 2X, 3X, 5X or 8X the number of years.... we just don't know yet. I'd certainly be surprised if they don't do 2X (though some early ones did not make it). I'd also be a bit surprised if they regularly make it to 30 years.

Complicating things is churn in the market. If I look at the "best to buy from" sources of raw cells five years ago, they aren't the guys you see mentioned today. I'm talking about manufacturers of cells here and not dealers. Data on cells from factory A may not apply to they way they are made at factory B. The guys who make the cells that "go into test" today, may not be here 10 or 20 years from now ....

It's not simple.

Bob

[interstateflyer]

Our 2005 Airstream Interstate coach battery was a Lifeline AGM GPL-24T, 12 volt, 100Ah Deep Cycle Marine. It was paired with a 100 watt roof mounted solar panel. The battery was still going strong when we sold the coach after 8 years and 80,000 miles At least half of our time was spent dry camping.

Our 2013 23D was equipped with two Lifeline AGM GPL-4CT, 6 volt 220Ah Golf Cart batteries. They were paired with four 100 watt solar panels. The batteries served us well for a three year mix of extended dry and full hookups camping. I have no reason to believe that they will loose performance in the foreseeable future.

I intend to have the same 2 AGM/400 watt system installed in our 2017 International 25FB. While the Lithium solution is tempting, the cost/benefit of the batteries and the install is not. AGMs have historically worked well for our style of camping so we'll stick with them.

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by TravlinMan

I prefer not to mount batteries under my bed no matter what kind they are. Just don't like em there.

In a 15' ball-coupler-to-rear-bumper trailer having a 12' body, even if I bought into your peculiar dictum about "no batteries under the bed" -- there aren't a lot of other locations to chose from. In the first picture, the original "conventional" set up. In the second picture, you can see the Lithium/Magnum set up. And finally a shot of the two X 100w photovoltaic panels on the roof. A bigger trailer wold provide more rooftop real estate on which to locate panels...

[TravlinMan]

Originally Posted by '55 Airlight

In a 15' ball-coupler-to-rear-bumper trailer having a 12' body, even if I bought into your peculiar dictum about "no batteries under the bed" -- there aren't a lot of other locations to chose from.

Yup, I know. I've owned several fiberglass trailers and 2 of em-- both 13 footers-- had the battery in a plastic box like that under the bed. I never liked it. Was glad not to have that setup on later trailers. Just a peace-o-mind thing. I worry bout some things and not others there's probly no rhyme or reason to any of it, I'm guessin it's just human nature.

Your trailer is beautiful.

['55 Airlight]

Originally Posted by TravlinMan

Your trailer is beautiful.

Thanks. Illustrated in the first image are the two explosion proof vented battery boxes, vented out the side (that goofy manifold connecting both boxes) and each box vented out through the floor and through the bellypan. That setup met RV Industry code, but what a bear to unscrew those boxes (a dozen or more perimeter nuts and bolts) in order to water the batteries. Going to AGMs solved the watering problem, but I wanted more capacity for more boon docking. With Lithiums, one can get greater amp/hour capacity in smaller, lighter packages. But yeah, it aint especially cheap.

M

[graysailor]

Following this thread rather closely. In the end I suppose it greatly matters just what your using your Airstream for. Part timer, age of trailer, age of user should all be factored in. For the present I am quite happy with my affordable AGM's. The problem is that I am an adventurer and always enjoy playing with the latest and the greatest. Lithiums are a costly item if you are going to park your trailer for 6 month a year.

[lsbrodsky]

Originally Posted by graysailor

Following this thread rather closely. In the end I suppose it greatly matters just what your using your Airstream for. Part timer, age of trailer, age of user should all be factored in. For the present I am quite happy with my affordable AGM's. The problem is that I am an adventurer and always enjoy playing with the latest and the greatest. Lithiums are a costly item if you are going to park your trailer for 6 month a year.

Amen. An Airstream is a costly item if you are going to park for 6 months a year. I know I should be using my Airstream for more than rallies, but only seem to squeeze in non-rally trips once or twice a year. Nevertheless, I proved to myself this year that Lithiums give us serious comfort while boondocking, opening up more camping possibilities for us.
Larry

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by graysailor

Following this thread rather closely. In the end I suppose it greatly matters just what your using your Airstream for. Part timer, age of trailer, age of user should all be factored in. For the present I am quite happy with my affordable AGM's. The problem is that I am an adventurer and always enjoy playing with the latest and the greatest. Lithiums are a costly item if you are going to park your trailer for 6 month a year.

Agreed. I live and work full-time in mine so I can justify the costs.

[TravlinMan]

I travel 11 months a year in the trailer and still think lithiums are pricey.

My suggestion would be to start with the stock setup and see if ya feel like ya need more. I found the stock batteries and 100w of solar are enough for everything I do on sunny days. 200w for cloudy days.

A lot cheaper to find out the stock set up meets your needs then to find out your multi-thousand option was more than ya needed.... my philosophy is camp first and only grow if it's really necessary.

Been workin out so far!

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

Amen. An Airstream is a costly item if you are going to park for 6 months a year. I know I should be using my Airstream for more than rallies, but only seem to squeeze in non-rally trips once or twice a year. Nevertheless, I proved to myself this year that Lithiums give us serious comfort while boondocking, opening up more camping possibilities for us.
Larry

Agree. I suspect it's difficult for most of us to justify owning an AS just based on economics anyway. The truth is it's a luxury item for many, and if you're going to have a travel trailer like this you might as well fully enjoy it. That includes not having to forego the various comforts offered by your AS when boondocking because you're pinching amps due to limited battery capacity.

Once you've shelled out the kind of money it takes to buy many new AS's, an additional few percent on the purchase price to help insure you can take full advantage of it seems worthwhile. Just my $.02.

[graysailor]

Lots of good reading here. I was forced to "boondock" for two days and spent most of it monitoring my electrical usage. I have two AGM's and 400W of solar so I thought I was all set up. Turned out I could not use much of anything. No coffee, no TV and on and on. Hence, I am evaluating what to do about this.

I did borrow a generator but when I hooked up the generator my Surge Guard kept telling me "reverse polarity". Hence the generator was of no use. This of course has led me off to another thread regarding the use of inverter/generators.

The learning never ends.

[james.mileur]

My surge guard manual says, "Do not use with an inverter portable generator." Maybe due to the floating ground or even reverse polarity?

[Rocinante]

I would never even consider using a Surge Guard when powered by an inverter generator. The whole point of the generator is that it produces nice clean power. The Surge Guard protects you from sketchy campground wiring systems and lightning storms. So, you should be able to simplify things and get a happier result. You may need to bond the neutral / ground to make your GFCI happy, but that is another story.

[TravlinMan]

Also, believe it or not, your gas stove combined with a $2 kettle and a $10 mugtop pourover or French press will produce coffee. I heard they actually used to drink it before electricity!

[Rocinante]

Hey, them's fightin' words. We use either a Moka pot or a vintage stainless steel percolator. Both make amazing coffee when done right...and it's not hard to get it right.

[switz]

Have a whistling tea pot to boil water over the propane stove. Have a glass lined Melita coffee pot/thermos with a funnel with paper filter for the grounds. Have both a manual and an electric coffee grinder. Morning shot of coffee is imperative to awaken the brain to do even the simplest things like a zipper check.

I have been solo in the 23D most of the time since 29 April on our spot at Ponderosa Shadows Airstream only RV park in Lakeside, AZ. We have had many multi full day power interruptions as we dug 3,100 feet of trench and installed over 6,500 feet of conduit for the wiring upgrade from 40 year old aluminum 30 amp service pedestals to copper wire and 50 amp service pedestals. The five 100 watt solar panels kept the 300 amp-hour lithium refilled during the day with the 12Vdc refrigerator running and keeping ice as ice and the food cold. No issues with the propane only powered instant on water heater letting me take the necessary showers.

[gypsydad]

I have the 2000W Champion generator with me so I can plug in my electric coffee pot and save on propane!