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Old 09-26-2019, 08:31 PM   #41
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The previous posts suggesting high voltage cut-offs for quality 6V golf cart batteries were really bad advice. I run Duracell EGC2 6V Flooded Lead Acid Golf Cart Batteries from Sam's Club. These are high quality DEKA-East Penn Golf Cart Batteries and they are TOUGH. They are designed to withstand great abuse and deep discharges to 20% SOC (State of Charge). I consistently abuse my batteries by running them down to 11.8V in cool temperatures. I treat them like I treat my propane exchange tanks. If I stopped using them at 13V, 12.5V or 12.4V, I might as well only camp while hooked up to shore power.

I've explained and documented why quality golf cart batteries can be abused. They are made out of Lead Antimony.

- Lead acid batteries with thick lead-antimony plates, Golf Cart Batteries, are designed to be deeply discharged to 20% SOC repeatably. The downside of lead-antimony plates is they gas more and use more water. For every positive there is a negative.

- Lead acid batteries with thin lead-calcium plates, like Marine/RV Deep Cycle & Automotive Starting Batteries, can only be discharged to 50% without severely shortening their lives. But they gas less and use less water.
Source: https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...ttery-faq.html

The Duracell EGC2 (Deka GC15) batteries use thick lead-antimony plates: http://www.ieeco.net/Documents/Batte...kaSolarC&L.pdf

Trojan T105 batteries use thick lead-antimony plates:
https://ressupply.com/batteries-and-...looded-battery

See this 30-day usage period I posted on the "Solar Show and Tell" thread for an example of how I "abuse" by Duracell EGC2 Golf Cart batteries: http://www.airforums.com/forums/atta...0&d=1541638588 There were 13 out of 30 days where my low voltage level for my batteries was 12.1V or below. There were 7 out of 30 days below 12.0V with an average low voltage of 11.82V. With temperatures in the 50's that month, these levels were 100% discharged based on this chart: http://all-about-lead-acid-batteries...re-correction/ I am still using the same set of batteries now after 250 "abusive" deep cycles. They still test and perform as brand new, pegging the hydrometer at 1.300 http://www.airforums.com/forums/atta...1&d=1561572577

I could go on-and-on and already have. Please see this AirForum Thread where we beat this horse to death: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...ml#post2237197 Doughpat can learn a lot from reading this entire thread. Let's not recreate that thread again.
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:20 PM   #42
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Airmiles thanks for the real world beta. Good to know!
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:05 AM   #43
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. . .
. . . I run Duracell EGC2 6V Flooded Lead Acid Golf Cart Batteries from Sam's Club. These are high quality DEKA-East Penn Golf Cart Batteries and they are TOUGH. They are designed to withstand great abuse and deep discharges to 20% SOC (State of Charge).
. . .
Thanks for your thorough insights here, and on those other threads. The above specs are hereby noted for future reference.

Peter
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Old 09-27-2019, 06:14 AM   #44
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When we first purchased our used 2016 22FB last year, I decided to add solar and lithium batteries after extensive reading here on this forum and other similar sites. We put in 2 BattleBorn batteries, 200W Renogy solar + a 100W portable, Victron 712, and a 2000W Xantrex inverter so we could use the microwave and most importantly, a hair dryer. While it was expensive, the system has worked flawlessly, and we have never been connected to shore power. Admittedly, we have not ever needed air conditioning due to careful planning of trip locations and timing. With the solar/lithium, we never have had to worry about what we are using electricity for, it just always works and is pretty much fully charged every day. The only exceptions are when I ran the refrigerator off the batteries for a full day trying to troubleshoot our typically unreliable propane fridge, which dropped us to about 66% battery capacity, and a period of four days parked in full shade, which only got us down into the upper 70% full range.

This solar-based approach was validated on a recent 18 day trip from California up to the Tetons, Yellowstone, Glacier and multiple points along the way, with a combination of national park campgrounds and "wild" camping in national forest land. In Teton, they put us in a generator-free campground which was great, but in Yellowstone for three days we had neighbors who would run their generators from the finish to start of quiet hours, and even beyond. It really emphasized to me the difference in philosophy, sitting in a hammock by a stream in the woods reading a book but with full electrical capability (sans air conditioning, as noted), versus sitting in a campground with a morning cup of coffee and hearing the "quiet hum" of one or more generators running all around you. In the future, I am going to be much more careful booking sites at the national parks in trying to find more generator free areas.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:32 AM   #45
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There may be a "lest expensive" way to add boon docking power run time. But reading all this it seems like it is still "expensive" by my simple standards. Trashing flooded cells may still be the way I will go.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:10 AM   #46
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Least expensive way to add boondocking capacity

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Originally Posted by jmickow View Post

versus sitting in a campground with a morning cup of coffee and hearing the "quiet hum" of one or more generators running all around you. In the future, I am going to be much more careful booking sites at the national parks in trying to find more generator free areas.
Quiet hum? You got lucky. Last week in Gros Ventre CG in Grand Teton, a couple of tools in massive 5th wheels ran their open frame job site generators from 8 am till 9:59:59 pm, non stop. I knocked on other doors a couple times at 10:02 pm. After they went off, what was that sound? Oh, the Madison River! It was only upon leaving that I learned they had a generator-free loop. Some places have generator times of a couple hours am and pm. I wish the National Parks at least would have a consistent policy. 8 am till 10 pm is ridiculous, especially in the fall when A/C is not needed. 13 days into this trip, one day to go, and my 400w of solar kept the generator in the truck the whole time, and I used the furnace and inverter stuff every night.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:37 PM   #47
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Hi all, I am trying to upgrade my Boondocking electrical capabilities, without spending an arm and a leg. I know that upgrading to lithium, upgraded controllers, monitors, solar everywhere, etc. is awesome and someday I would like to do that, but we are already stretched thin and are disappointed with the performance of the stock group 24 continental lead acid battery and stock charger.

It seems like sticking with lead acid might make sense because then I can use the stock charger/converter/monitor etc.

I know that 6 V batteries are better performers, but they seem quite expensive compared to group 27 12 V batteries. I am thinking that two (even three?) group 27 batteries wired in parallel would give the biggest “bang/buck” ratio of all options.

A closely related option would be the AGM version of the above, as (if I understand correctly) they have a larger effective capacity due to lower allowed discharge levels. Plus no messing with water levels (and maybe a bit more durable?).

I do plan on adding a 40w portable solar panel to compliment my Honda 1000w generator. Eventually I’d like to add additional solar to the roof, but that’s a ways off.

On a side note—why are group 27 batteries the most common lead acid battery I see on these forums? There are larger ones and it seems like the cost effectiveness is, generally speaking, better as the battery gets larger.

You’ll want to consider cost vs amp-hours vs weight for your batteries. GP 27 is a reasonable choice for size/weight. (With much more space and no weight concerns, I use GC4 AGM’s on our sailboat). With minimal DIY mod I fit 2 x GP 27 Lifeline AGM’s into my FC23FB battery box (I do not want lead acid batteries inside living quarters). 200 amp-hr charged by 265 watts of solar on the roof of the trailer with an adjustable Blue Sky MPPT controller (also DIY) lets us dry camp far longer than our gray & black water capacities. Simple and trouble-free. No hairdryers or microwave mind you, we are boon docking, but plenty of power to run the furnace in freezing weather. Rooftop solar works while towing, and won’t walk away while unattended in a CG. My Yamaha 2400 remains in our garage (I just don’t like the sound of a generator, and unless you use it with a separate multi-stage battery charger, it is just too inefficient).

Lot’s of good approaches presented herein, one just has to figure out ones needs, resources and satisfaction levels.

Safe Travels,
JamuJoe
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Old 09-28-2019, 09:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by pcskier View Post
Quiet hum? You got lucky. Last week in Gros Ventre CG in Grand Teton, a couple of tools in massive 5th wheels ran their open frame job site generators from 8 am till 9:59:59 pm, non stop. I knocked on other doors a couple times at 10:02 pm. After they went off, what was that sound? Oh, the Madison River! It was only upon leaving that I learned they had a generator-free loop. Some places have generator times of a couple hours am and pm. I wish the National Parks at least would have a consistent policy. 8 am till 10 pm is ridiculous, especially in the fall when A/C is not needed. 13 days into this trip, one day to go, and my 400w of solar kept the generator in the truck the whole time, and I used the furnace and inverter stuff every night.
Hi

.....coffee grounds .....

========

There is no *one* answer to all this. I'm very happy with our solar + lithium approach and have no complaints about it. I can easily justify it as "cheapest", but that is by my metrics and my usage. Change the metrics or change the usage .... you get a different outcome.

Bob
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Old 09-28-2019, 10:43 AM   #49
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Off-topic, but related.

Speaking of generator noise and its negative impact on enjoying a campsite, here's a recent experience. During August my family stayed at a Forest Service campground near Yellowstone for 15 days. Unfortunately, the rules at that campground (and I believe most, if not all FS campgrounds) allow generators from 6:00 am to 10:00 pm.

During our 15 day stay, we had the bad luck of having two different neighbors with very loud generators run their generators intermittently for much of the day, including every morning from about 6:30 am until around 8:30 am and every evening from about 6:30 pm to 10:00 pm, with intermittent runs during the day.

Having to listen to a loud generator at night totally destroys any enjoyment of sitting around a campfire. We could barely hear ourselves talking, much less hearing the natural sounds of evening.

One night our neighbor's generator was still running at 10:15. So, I knocked on their door. The wife answered and politely apologized for not turning off the generator at 10:00. She said: "We turn up the volume on our TV loud enough so we don't have to listen to the generator". (Note: Duh, what about your neighbors!!!!). The husband, however, was not so polite. He barked at me saying it wasn't any of my business how long they ran their generator and it wasn't my role to ask him to turn it off. I said "Thank You" and left.

I don't want to offend anyone here, but when the polite lady said they turned up the volume of their TV so they didn't have to listen to their generator, it reminded me of comment(s) I've read here that folks aren't bothered by the noise of their generators because their air conditioners mask the noise. OK, but what about their neighbors?

Cheers,

Bryan
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Old 09-28-2019, 10:47 AM   #50
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The least expensive approach is to bring a small generator along. Use it, and evaluate your needs over time. Then decide how much energy storage and generation you really need.
totally agree with this recommendation.....Even a generator that runs on gasoline will be so handy.......you can experiment as you go along, while never running the risk of being down, if you have a generator on hand...
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Old 09-28-2019, 11:15 AM   #51
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Least expensive way to add boondocking capacity

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklab View Post
Off-topic, but related.



Speaking of generator noise and its negative impact on enjoying a campsite, here's a recent experience. During August my family stayed at a Forest Service campground near Yellowstone for 15 days. Unfortunately, the rules at that campground (and I believe most, if not all FS campgrounds) allow generators from 6:00 am to 10:00 pm.



During our 15 day stay, we had the bad luck of having two different neighbors with very loud generators run their generators intermittently for much of the day, including every morning from about 6:30 am until around 8:30 am and every evening from about 6:30 pm to 10:00 pm, with intermittent runs during the day.



Having to listen to a loud generator at night totally destroys any enjoyment of sitting around a campfire. We could barely hear ourselves talking, much less hearing the natural sounds of evening.



One night our neighbor's generator was still running at 10:15. So, I knocked on their door. The wife answered and politely apologized for not turning off the generator at 10:00. She said: "We turn up the volume on our TV loud enough so we don't have to listen to the generator". (Note: Duh, what about your neighbors!!!!). The husband, however, was not so polite. He barked at me saying it wasn't any of my business how long they ran their generator and it wasn't my role to ask him to turn it off. I said "Thank You" and left.



I don't want to offend anyone here, but when the polite lady said they turned up the volume of their TV so they didn't have to listen to their generator, it reminded me of comment(s) I've read here that folks aren't bothered by the noise of their generators because their air conditioners mask the noise. OK, but what about their neighbors?



Cheers,



Bryan
Were you at Baker’s Hole? They allow them but it’s 8 am to 10 pm. Then it’s ‘quiet time.’ I believe that’s the case at most FS campgrounds. If someone barked at me for politely requesting they respect quiet time, I’d go wake up the host and let them handle it. That’s one of the reasons they are there. They won’t be happy with the offending party for getting their night disturbed. And if they give the host any lip. A FS ranger will be summoned. Did the offending party at least shut it off after the interaction? I refuse to put up with it and will elevate until they are forced in to compliance and warned not to let it happen again.
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Old 09-28-2019, 12:08 PM   #52
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Were you at Baker’s Hole? They allow them but it’s 8 am to 10 pm. Then it’s ‘quiet time.’ I believe that’s the case at most FS campgrounds. If someone barked at me for politely requesting they respect quiet time, I’d go wake up the host and let them handle it. That’s one of the reasons they are there. They won’t be happy with the offending party for getting their night disturbed. And if they give the host any lip. A FS ranger will be summoned. Did the offending party at least shut it off after the interaction? I refuse to put up with it and will elevate until they are forced in to compliance and warned not to let it happen again.
Yes, they did turn it off. But, only after the polite wife told her husband to turn it off, after he had barked at me. And yes, had he not turned it off, next stop would have been me knocking on the door of the Camp Host.

It was not Baker's Hole. Based on my unlucky experiences I referenced, I sent a letter (e-mail) to the FS Regional office, asking them to forward it to the District Ranger's office, which they did. I asked why the need to have the Quiet Hours be only from 10:00 pm to to 6:00 am? Within two days I received an e-mail from the District Ranger. He understood my concern but said that as far as he knows (and he said he checked with some of his colleagues in other NF offices) all FS campgrounds use those same Quiet Hours. He said specifically that all campgrounds in his Region and his District (which includes Baker's Hole) have those same Quiet Hours. He said he was unclear why those hours were selected, but they've been in place for many years. He said he's not even sure he could change them if he wanted to at specific campgrounds. But, he promised to look into it.

You may be right about Baker's Hole being 8:00 am, not 6:00 am, but, if so, it would seem the District Ranger doesn't know it is that way.

8:00 am to 8:00 pm seems reasonable. Anything earlier or later is simply too intrusive and destructive of many other folks' enjoyment of why they are camping in the first place. There is something sacred about a family sitting around a campfire listening to the fire crackle, laughter, and the wonderful sounds of the evening. A generator destroys it.

Cheers,

Bryan
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:42 PM   #53
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The least expensive approach is to bring a small generator along. Use it, and evaluate your needs over time. Then decide how much energy storage and generation you really need.
Yes.
And I add a regular battery charger since charging batteries directly from the generator can overcharge them. The Honda 1000 has a lot of uses. You can run a crock pot, electric skillet, charge truck and trailer batteries, inflate a flat tire, etc. It sips gas, so one 5 gallon gerry can could last for weeks, and put fuel in your tow vehicle if it is a gasser.

Water tends to be more of a limiter. Gotta get a little "stank" to stay out over a week. Rain water collected from your awning or a nearby creek can be used to bathe if you can handle cold to tepid water. Of course sunlight will warm it, as can running the genny for the induction burner. An air conditioner isn't going to work with a 1000, but outdoor misting fans and fantastic fans will.
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Old 09-28-2019, 03:09 PM   #54
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Hi all, I am trying to upgrade my Boondocking electrical capabilities, without spending an arm and a leg. I know that upgrading to lithium, upgraded controllers, monitors, solar everywhere, etc. is awesome and someday I would like to do that, but we are already stretched thin and are disappointed with the performance of the stock group 24 continental lead acid battery and stock charger.

It seems like sticking with lead acid might make sense because then I can use the stock charger/converter/monitor etc.

I know that 6 V batteries are better performers, but they seem quite expensive compared to group 27 12 V batteries. I am thinking that two (even three?) group 27 batteries wired in parallel would give the biggest “bang/buck” ratio of all options.

A closely related option would be the AGM version of the above, as (if I understand correctly) they have a larger effective capacity due to lower allowed discharge levels. Plus no messing with water levels (and maybe a bit more durable?).

I do plan on adding a 40w portable solar panel to compliment my Honda 1000w generator. Eventually I’d like to add additional solar to the roof, but that’s a ways off.

On a side note—why are group 27 batteries the most common lead acid battery I see on these forums? There are larger ones and it seems like the cost effectiveness is, generally speaking, better as the battery gets larger.

There’s no real need to change anything.

But, first, what is the total number of nights you can live aboard without re-supply? Any season except coldest and hottest. That’s the definition of boondock capacity.

Supply limit.

— An RV is possible because of propane. It’s the primary system.

— Water capacity is the generally-cited limit.

— Food is the next.

— Electricity is the least important. Besides running the furnace fan, it isn’t necessary. It’s a convenience only.

Trying to make night into day, etc, isn’t quite boondocking, is how to think of it. When it’s dark it’s time to wind things up. When the sun comes up, it’s a new day.

Keep the concept simple.

Above all, learn what your rig can do. Not just what emotions demand.

And, your tow vehicle can re-charge the house batteries. If you want to upgrade that system (TV remote charge) it’s not new ground. It’s been done for over 100-years.

I strongly suggest to anyone that this is the first step. Not a genset. Not solar.

Work first with what’s available.

The Peterbilt I drive has two battery banks. The Start Group and the House Group. Different types, conventional and AGM. On the rare day I’m on the on the road but stationary I set the engine to come on when the House Set reaches 20% capacity. Thus may be 8-hours at summers peak, or barely once in 24. The 13L diesel runs at 950-rpm high idle (versus 600) from 1.5-2.0/hours consuming up to (3) gallons diesel. (Peterbilt Smart Aire).

This is no different than 50-years ago when we’d install a vernier-control mechanical throttle in a car. Fire off that seven or eight liter engine and run it until the House batteries were back to par. That was also a good time to look over the TV in an inspection.

TV fuel capacity is a necessary category

The trick is to reduce electrical use. “Save” it for what mattered. (IOW, be a man. Test. Record the numbers).

So, the question about electrical capacity is best seen against the other categories: propane, water and food. And TV fuel

Once you MUST move the rig for re-supply answers the question about re-charging the House set. The time frame. How many nights aboard without re-supply against the minimum electrical usage number of re-charges expressed as TV gallons consumed [use 1.25 gls/hr] as TV fuel is also a limiting factor.

You need the whole picture. First, ask the right questions.

“What’s least expensive” as an upgrade goes against annual nights aboard. That’s the fundamental operator cost unit.

Total nights aboard during years of ownership is the cost of your RV. Every expense.

300-nights over ten years with a combined rig at 100k (same TV throughout included) means about $350/night to go camping. Before you gas up, stock it with food or pay ground rent. And it’s not inclusive of financing or insurance or state registration & taxes. $400/night?

You already have a tow vehicle. You have house batteries. Make them work together. First. As the ability to charge the house set from the TV isn’t optional NOR should easy re-charge of the Start set ever be ignored.

Increasing the size of the existing charge wire on the TV and TT plus an Anderson PowerPole disconnect for a HD jumper cord set at the TV front bumper is the best start.

The right questions based on:

1). total nights without resupply.

2). number of House set charges in that period.

3). maximization of existing equipment utilization.

4). un-recouped cost potential against X-nights over Y-years.

5). increased complexity for a convenience when the necessary “upgrade” already exists in your possession ISN’T an upgrade, per se.

There are other circumstances than camping where an RV is an important possession. Name the disaster-du-jour. Your brother-in-law may have your genset. Hail has destroyed the solar. Etc. Attend the basics.

.
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Old 09-29-2019, 04:35 AM   #55
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Thumbs up

Well said words of wisdom.

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Old 09-29-2019, 06:21 AM   #56
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This thread was in response to a poster who has some specific problems"


"You have house batteries."

No, the OP does not already have house batteries. He has a 2 year old small starting battery where the "batteries" should be. Just buying 1 deep cycle would triple or more his boon docking capacity.

"I strongly suggest to anyone that this is the first step. Not a genset. Not solar. "

He already has a generator.

If the OP buys a battery or buys 2 and adds one he will have done a big upgrade in capacity. Plus that will give him some useful response to running the generator.

In general, I do like your suggestion of having the TV charge the trailer while pulling. I think I am going to upgrade that part of my rig. Thinking about a DC to DC converter for that. And a new wire.
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Old 09-29-2019, 08:36 AM   #57
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FYI and FEI

Here is the OP's last update in Post #33:

Quote:
Originally Posted by doughpat View Post
Very much monitoring and taking lots of notes!

My current plan is to add 2 golf
Cart batteries on the tongue, perhaps keeping the existing 12v battery as a “backup” (isolated with manual disconnects). Then add as large of a portable solar as possible (probably 100w or so) to supplement my 1000w inverter generator.

FYI I do not have an AC so that load is not an issue. Biggest user will be a Cpap (which I will get a low voltage power supply for) and the furnace (during shoulder seasons). I have a small inverter for the occasional laptop recharge (and will try to do that during generator use).

Eventually I’d like to upgrade to a better converter/charger, probably the PD 4655L so that my batteries will get 14.4v during the generator time.

Long long term (after roof repairs, lift kit) I would like to add another 3-400 watts of solar and a better monitor. But that’s a while down the road.

Immensely helpful to read everyone’s contributions.
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Old 09-29-2019, 09:19 AM   #58
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Resource Management

One man's home is another man's castle. Your costs are based on your perceived needs. Do you really want to bring your whole house with you? That's gonna cost. A lot.
Also take into consideration location and time of season.
Find the middle ground and remember, it's boondocking, after all.
That said, solar solutions are the most cost effective, but never hurts to have a back up gennie.
happy trails
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