Lead acid to lithium

[Tony Lee]

Anyone asserting that lithium batteries in the trailer being charged through 30 feet of skinny cable through a standard plug and socket will somehow cause your alternator to form a puddle of aluminium on the ground has fallen victim to one of the several urban myths regarding lithium batteries.

In the real world you will be lucky to get much more than 5 amps flowing (pretty much the same as when you had lead acid batteries) which is certainly not going to stress any alternator in any vehicle towing a TT. The downside is that it will never fully charge your battery either (also as was the case with lead acid batteries)

In fact adding a b2b charger supplied via a rated plug and socket, will charge your battery fully, but for those whose instinct is 'the bigger the better' , there is a real risk of causing alternator damage by running them at higher than rated continuous current.

Got a motorhome? Different situation and the urban myth may not be a myth in practice.

[Tony Lee]

So all this fancy monitoring and power-guzzling heating pads that requires power to operate. Can someone explain where this power comes from?

Certainly not from solar panels unless they are that magic type that somehow produces power when covered with snow.

Yes, a good bms might switch the power off when the battery is empty, which sounds good until you realise that there can be so little charge remaining in the battery that even the small draw of the bms can draw the battery down further to the point of irreversible damage.

[Tony Lee]

Originally Posted by Carla Wise

We are going to our dealer to get this done..too many things can go wrong.

Is your dealer an expert in all things solar?

Most are definitely not.

[Life is a Highway]

I believe a Sweet spot would be the two Lithiun BB a converter charger that can run both profiles and a pure sign wave 2000 watt inverter that is enough to run those few 1400 watt items like a blender or air fryer ,one at a time. The 1000 watt Airsteam std unit is a tease.

Our new 30 is still in process of production but it is good to see the new Victron Solar Control and I hear the solar panels are now the cool low profile Zamp Obsidians.

I will install a Renogy 40 Amp DC-DC and am deciding on a Victron 3000 and 3-4 BB Lithiun batteries. Out of living the Covid Dream boredom I just installed the truck wiring for the DC -DC system on our Ford 6.7 F-250. Even with std Airsteam AGM LifeLines this will be a game changer.

I did not hook directly to the battery. I made use of one of our Ford up-fitter switches. It controls a Blue Sea L series 240 amp Marine Quality Solenoid. This is so I have switched power. Its on or off my control. Yes I could have used a switched circuit breaker but that requires opening the hood.

The solenoid input post is fused , wired directly from the truck’s alternator post and the solenoid fused output post connects 2 gauge wire run under the truck in wire loom to a Anderson 175 amp connector. I also used a Anderson connector housing.

If anyone is interested in the project pm me.

[Laptopt]

Life is a Highway, great news on the size of the panels. I’m expecting to get my 2021 30’ Classic towards the end of March. Would love to replace the AGM with Heated BB and put them in the battery box. Don’t want to go too crazy with solar yet until I have a solid idea of how we will be utilizing our AS, but taking baby steps to get where I want to be.
Thanks everyone for the input.

[Jeffndaile]

Originally Posted by Rklene

I have a 2020 Globetrotter with two lead acid batteries installed. I have purchased two Battle Bold 100 ah lithium batteries to replace the lead acid. Is there anything I need to do regarding the existing electrical when I drop them in? Would an aftermarket battery monitor make sense to be able to see the level of charge?

Do yourself a favor and call battle born back and ask them what to do. You will need a new charger for these batteries and you will definitely want a battery meter installed. Also you may wish to upgrade your inverter as well to a 2000 W unit because you’ll now have power to run those inverter plugs in the trailer. My wife and I did the same thing and replaced our stock batteries with two battle born 100 amp hour batteries.... if you’re in cold or hot climates you’ll want to install those batteries indoors to get the best out of them. We installed ours behind our couch as they can be installed anywhere without issue. The absolute best upgrade we have made to our airstream. Please feel free to give me a call 208-553-2226
Also before I forget, you will need to upgrade your charge cables to those batteries considerably when upgrading you’re charging system because they will need a much larger cable.

[daleyocum]

Originally Posted by Tony Lee

So all this fancy monitoring and power-guzzling heating pads that requires power to operate. Can someone explain where this power comes from?

Certainly not from solar panels unless they are that magic type that somehow produces power when covered with snow.

Yes, a good bms might switch the power off when the battery is empty, which sounds good until you realise that there can be so little charge remaining in the battery that even the small draw of the bms can draw the battery down further to the point of irreversible damage.

That’s why putting the batteries inside is really the best approach. I, too, find the heating pad solution suboptimal at best. I use the outside battery box to store wheel chocks and lego blocks.

[jonmarinello]

I would definitely go with Victron. They are hands down the best.

[mythbuster88]

A million years ago when the only option was lead and acid and explosive gas then it made sense to have the batteries outside in a metal box.

But today if you are in your trailer then for sure it is warm inside. And that is where the LiFeP04 batteries should be.

When that happens all your acid battery problems go away.

Look at this forum (or any RV forum) and the same failure comes up over and over: the lead acid battery.

[Tony Lee]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

When that happens all your acid battery problems go away.

Look at this forum (or any RV forum) and the same failure comes up over and over: the lead acid battery.

Suggesting that lithiums never have problems is a bit optimistic because the cowboy installers won't go away and operator error and ignorance won't either, and when they screw up the main difference is it will cost a heap extra. Add in susceptibility to hot and cold temperatures that wouldn't faze a lead acid, and bms that shut the system down without warning, and you are just substituting one set of failure modes with another

As for failure of lead acid batteries reported on this forum. Seen a few, along with hot water services that fail to heat, dining tables that collapse and shower screens that leak

Good thing that the more expensive the purchase, the stronger is Confirmation Bias

[hobbie1]

Wondering why the all the push for these setup's? I have the solar package from Airstream with AGM's and 2 Honda 2200's - a primary and a companion. They run the entire rig and after I added the shared tank they will run 24 hours with no issues. Plus the little Honda's are super quiet.

Just my 2 cents......

[Jeffndaile]

Originally Posted by Tony Lee

Suggesting that lithiums never have problems is a bit optimistic because the cowboy installers won't go away and operator error and ignorance won't either, and when they screw up the main difference is it will cost a heap extra. Add in susceptibility to hot and cold temperatures that wouldn't faze a lead acid, and bms that shut the system down without warning, and you are just substituting one set of failure modes with another

As for failure of lead acid batteries reported on this forum. Seen a few, along with hot water services that fail to heat, dining tables that collapse and shower screens that leak

Good thing that the more expensive the purchase, the stronger is Confirmation Bias

Sounds like somebody who’s never had lithium.... I can’t even describe the total joy I had when I first realized just how totally awesome my 2 battle born’s were and how much it changed EVERYTHING.... power for days, fantastic fans run on high all night long in the summer (and still leaves me with 70% charge left) I can run my microwave! Try doing that on those pathetic lead acid batteries.... not to mention they’re (your lead acid) only good for 50% discharge before they’re toast.

If there is one complaint.... and I got over that quick, it’s the initial cost...

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by Jeffndaile

Sounds like somebody who’s never had lithium.... I can’t even describe the total joy I had when I first realized just how totally awesome my 2 battle born’s were and how much it changed EVERYTHING.... power for days, fantastic fans run on high all night long in the summer (and still leaves me with 70% charge left) I can run my microwave! Try doing that on those pathetic lead acid batteries.... not to mention they’re (your lead acid) only good for 50% discharge before they’re toast.

If there is one complaint.... and I got over that quick, it’s the initial cost...

Sounds like someone who doesn't understand how to charge lead acid batteries. I can do the same. And the 50% is a myth.

The advantage of Lithium is weight per volume of storage. As well as the ability to charge quickly if you can actually take advantage of it. But in the cold you'll need to keep them warm.

I create lithium batteries for EVs for living. I haven't been convinced that they are the greatest yet. We're not there yet. Give it some time. In the meantime I'm keeping my AGMs.

[mythbuster88]

Originally Posted by hobbie1

Wondering why the all the push for these setup's? I have the solar package from Airstream with AGM's and 2 Honda 2200's - a primary and a companion. They run the entire rig and after I added the shared tank they will run 24 hours with no issues. Plus the little Honda's are super quiet.

Just my 2 cents......

Super quiet if you are inside.

[mythbuster88]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Sounds like someone who doesn't understand how to charge lead acid batteries. I can do the same. And the 50% is a myth.

The advantage of Lithium is weight per volume of storage. As well as the ability to charge quickly if you can actually take advantage of it. But in the cold you'll need to keep them warm.

I create lithium batteries for EVs for living. I haven't been convinced that they are the greatest yet. We're not there yet. Give it some time. In the meantime I'm keeping my AGMs.

I suppose you are right if you camp in Ontario Canada, in the winter, in sub freezing temperatures.

But most people do not keep the inside of the trailer below 0 C while camping.

And for those warm blooded types who want to camp for days and keep the heater running and watch a movie and run a coffee maker and keep the lights on while not connected to shore power...or run a generator, then LiFeP04 batteries are a total game changer.

[Tony Lee]

Originally Posted by Jeffndaile

Sounds like somebody who’s never had lithium.... I can’t even describe the total joy I had when I first realized just how totally awesome my 2 battle born’s were and how much it changed EVERYTHING.... power for days, fantastic fans run on high all night long in the summer (and still leaves me with 70% charge left) I can run my microwave! Try doing that on those pathetic lead acid batteries.... not to mention they’re (your lead acid) only good for 50% discharge before they’re toast.

If there is one complaint.... and I got over that quick, it’s the initial cost...

I have one motorhome in Australia with a 24V 280Ah LiFePO4 battery with 1600 watts of Solar. Run one of the 3 aircon s as needed. Limited by the inverter size. Run microwave, toaster, kettle electric blankets without. problems. Chinese cells DIY construction, Victron inverter charger, solar regulator and bms. 2 x 5kW Diesel heaters. All built by me.

Another mh in Australia DIY bus conversion. About 800 watts solar, 560Ah 24V Fullriver AGM battery. All similar gear to above including limited operate aircon. Not in use and acts as our home base. Solar still operating

Airstream Cutter Class A in US. 4 golf cart batteries with about 1500W solar. Boondocking 95% of the time. Yes we run the microwave, kettle, toaster and the other usual stuff so maybe we have magic lead acid batteries eh?

Two Class C motorhomes in Germany. Small solar system and couple of 100Ah AGM in each.

OKA 4WD truck based motorhome self build in Australia 600W solar and 560Ah 12 volt battery AGM of course. Usual kitchen appliances via 1500 W inverter. Microwave, kettle, bread maker, blankets. No aircon, but no mains power inlet either. Sold 2 months ago.

Ford F350 with Bigfoot camper driven all over South America over 3 years sold a year ago. Basic solar with 4 x 12v 100Ah batteries


So what did you want to know about motorhoming in general and power systems in particular.

BTW quality AGM batteries DO NOT fall in a heap just because you dare take them to 49%. In fact down to 30% occasionally is not unreasonable. Same with golf cart batteries
BTW 2 Lithium do not generate energy, they merely store it. Same as lead acid. Simple fact often overlooked

As for lithium, yes you pay your money and do get some value for your money in some conditions but as I said, they are definitely not a zero worry solution

[mythbuster88]

Originally Posted by Tony Lee

I have one motorhome in Australia with a 24V 280Ah LiFePO4 battery with 1600 watts of Solar. Run one of the 3 aircon s as needed. Limited by the inverter size. Run microwave, toaster, kettle electric blankets without. problems. Chinese cells DIY construction, Victron inverter charger, solar regulator and bms. 2 x 5kW Diesel heaters. All built by me.

Another mh in Australia DIY bus conversion. About 800 watts solar, 560Ah 24V Fullriver AGM battery. All similar gear to above including limited operate aircon. Not in use and acts as our home base. Solar still operating

Airstream Cutter Class A in US. 4 golf cart batteries with about 1500W solar. Boondocking 95% of the time. Yes we run the microwave, kettle, toaster and the other usual stuff so maybe we have magic lead acid batteries eh?

Two Class C motorhomes in Germany. Small solar system and couple of 100Ah AGM in each.

OKA 4WD truck based motorhome self build in Australia 600W solar and 560Ah 12 volt battery AGM of course. Usual kitchen appliances via 1500 W inverter. Microwave, kettle, bread maker, blankets. No aircon, but no mains power inlet either. Sold 2 months ago.

Ford F350 with Bigfoot camper driven all over South America over 3 years sold a year ago. Basic solar with 4 x 12v 100Ah batteries


So what did you want to know about motorhoming in general and power systems in particular.

BTW quality AGM batteries DO NOT fall in a heap just because you dare take them to 49%. In fact down to 30% occasionally is not unreasonable. Same with golf cart batteries
BTW 2 Lithium do not generate energy, they merely store it. Same as lead acid. Simple fact often overlooked

As for lithium, yes you pay your money and do get some value for your money in some conditions but as I said, they are definitely not a zero worry solution

Oh boy, where to start?

We are not saying lithium is zero worry, nor are we saying that lead acid batteries don't work. What we are saying is that when you upgrade, then your lead acid problems go away. Those problems are weight, explosive gas, acid, discharge capacity, etc.

While it is true that motorhomes can have large lead acid battery banks in enclosed metal compartments, we are discussing relatively small, light, aluminum trailers that have a single metal box mounted outside used for lead acid batteries.

In order to increase energy capacity we can relocate the batteries inside the trailer living space. A perfect application for the LiFePO4 battery that can be discharged way below 30% with no damage whatsoever.

Funny how people are so resistant to change.

2 X 5KW diesel heaters?

[hobbie1]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

Super quiet if you are inside.

Have you heard them? They are very quiet outside also...

[Collyn]

Do not believe the wattage claimed - reality tends to be about 70% of that.

As a possible matter of interest my three-story house is 100% solar with a 14 kW Tesla battery to run it at night. We have 6.6 kW of solar.

Collyn

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Collyn

Do not believe the wattage claimed - reality tends to be about 70% of that.

As a possible matter of interest my three-story house is 100% solar with a 14 kW Tesla battery to run it at night. We have 6.6 kW of solar.

Collyn

I actually saw 214 watts out of my 2X 100 watt panels....once, under absolute perfect conditions. Reality, overall, is probably close to your 70% claim.....perhaps a bit more.