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Old 05-09-2021, 12:58 PM   #1
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Diagnosing electrical (battery?) issue

I may have dead batteries or some related issue and need diagnostic advice.

Background about my AS and its usage:

We ordered our 2016 FC 25 FB Twin new from Traveland RV in Langley, BC. It was stock electrically except upon their recommendation we upgraded batteries from the single 12v to two "maintenance free" 6v batteries in series. The only addition we made was to later buy portable solar panels and have them connected into the battery.

See the attached pic of the batteries as they are today.

The AS is generally parked in our driveway 300+ days per year. We have a 30A hookup and whenever the AS is at home it is plugged into that power supply. I have never disconnected the batteries and I have never set the "Store/Use" switch by the door to anything other than "Use". I have not done any maintenance to the batteries nor have I had them tested since the AS was purchased.

At home, during the summer, the AS is hooked to shore power and once we set up for our first trip the fridge goes on and runs electrically all year until winter shut down. At home, heat is not on in the summer nor is cooling. As winter approaches all tanks are emptied, all lines are blown out, the fridge is turned off, the heat pump is set to heat to 14 C (about 58 F) and a supplemental Caframo low wattage heater/fan is plugged in inside the AS and set by the fresh water pump to ensure that if the heat pump fails any residual water in the pump won't freeze if floor temp drops to freezing. We like the heat on during winter to keep everything dry. Our winters on the east coast of Vancouver Island are mild (if wet) and we rarely see freezing temps. If it is going to drop well below freezing I shut off the HP and plug in an oil-filled heater inside the AS.

We rarely camp away from an electrical hook up. When we have done, I keep an eye on the electrical meter above the sink. It is typically around 13.6 or 13.7 when the batteries are "full". When it drops to around 12-ish I hook up the solar panels and top up the batteries. This has all worked fine including the inverter plug to use AS appliances while off grid.

The only electrical issue I've ever had is that the Up/Down switch and the "microswitch" inside the power jack head were replaced upon the recommendation of the manufacturer as they failed near the end of last season and would not activate the power jack.

Now the problem:

This year when we hooked up to go on our first trip I disconnected from shore power then attempted to use the power jack to lift the AS to get it onto the hitch. Nothing happened. Thinking it was the switch I reconnected to 30A shore power and the power jack operated normally. I also operated normally when I connect to the truck instead of shore power. Obviously the AS electrical system was not up to the task.

Because we were on a time constraint to get away, and because we were going to an RV park with full hoop ups, I did not investigate further until we were settled in to our destination and I used the shore power there to power the jack up and down. I left the shore power connected to cool down the fridge which had warmed during travel.

While hooked up to shore power at the RV park the meter above the sink showed 13.7. I disconnected shore power after the fridge was cool and the meter showed 10.5. Once disconnected I tried the LED lights and the various fans and they all worked fine operating off battery. After that test I looked at the meter above the sink and it was 9.0. I was distracted from investigation for about an hour and when I looked at the meter above the sink it would not register anything. At that point nothing electrical worked inside - not lights nor fans. I'm not sure what I might have left on during that hour, other than the convection-microwave was plugged in and showing the time (didn't operate the MW though). I don't think lights or fans were left on.

We camped for 8 nights using shore power and all was fine. The inverter came on and off several times as it usually does when we are on shore power (it's obvious from its fan).

So this brings up my questions:

1. Are my batteries dead or is it some other issue e.g. inverter?
2. What's the best way to get my batteries properly tested? I could haul it to an RV repair place but they are absolutely swamped (with COVID everyone is buying a truck, trailer and dog and going camping). Should I take the batteries out and take them to a battery place? I hear Canadian Tire can properly test batteries - any experience with CT on batteries?
3. Did old age kill the batteries (assuming they are dead) or did I kill them prematurely by keeping plugged in to shore power 365 days per year they way I do? If I did contribute, what's the better way to protect the batteries given that I do want to connect to show power always when at home?
4. Am I missing other issues?

I would appreciate assistance and thank you for it.

Gary
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:12 PM   #2
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Diagnosing electrical (battery?) issue

Gary

Gary here too.

How about a real simple set of tests you can do.

Get a battery hydrometer and test each cells specific gravity. Use supplied info and record each cells value.

Disconnect batteries from each other and measure each batteries voltage.

If nothing drastic found consider charging each battery with a charger and retest voltage and specific gravity. If you get obvious bad readings new batteries.

This is not exactly a load test but itís shown on the Trojan battery YouTube for testing these 6V batteries. They have multiple videos.





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Old 05-09-2021, 01:41 PM   #3
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Remove batteries and load test them
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:53 PM   #4
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I would remove them, open up the caps and see if there is any liquid left in them. I suspect if you have never done anything to them, they are "toast"! Any battery store can load test them. I open the top covers and check liquid levels monthly, and add distilled water as needed. Batteries require some maintenance. You should also check your converter to make sure it is working , as well.
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:02 PM   #5
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gnijman -

Same experience similar operating history with a 2015 last year. The issue is the stock battery charger overcharges the batteries and boils away the electrolyte. The risk is that battery's in the condition can literally explode (hydrogen gas explosion within a cell that shorts out).

Fair bet your battery electrolyte is gone. Replace the batteries. I would disconnect them, pop the cell covers and look for exposed plates and little or no electrolyte. Buy new ones. There are no "fixes" for batteries in that condition.

The fix (which I haven't done yet) is to replace the existing build in battery charger with something better.

Be careful.
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:04 PM   #6
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I’m not sure those batteries actually are “maintenance free.” Just looking at the caps they look to me like they are flooded and would require periodic watering. In any event, it would not surprise me if they were approaching the end of their life cycle. You bought the trailer in 2016 (?). Who knows if the batteries you installed were fresh off the line or not, but if they were manufactured say in 2015, they’d be about 6 years old now. I would expect all but the most meticulously cared for flooded batteries to be wearing out after six years. But, you should get them load tested, as recommended above, to know for sure.
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnijman View Post

While hooked up to shore power at the RV park the meter above the sink showed 13.7. I disconnected shore power after the fridge was cool and the meter showed 10.5. Once disconnected I tried the LED lights and the various fans and they all worked fine operating off battery. After that test I looked at the meter above the sink and it was 9.0. I was distracted from investigation for about an hour and when I looked at the meter above the sink it would not register anything.

We camped for 8 nights using shore power and all was fine. The inverter came on and off several times as it usually does when we are on shore power (it's obvious from its fan).

So this brings up my questions:

1. Are my batteries dead or is it some other issue e.g. inverter?
2. What's the best way to get my batteries properly tested? I could haul it to an RV repair place but they are absolutely swamped (with COVID everyone is buying a truck, trailer and dog and going camping). Should I take the batteries out and take them to a battery place? I hear Canadian Tire can properly test batteries - any experience with CT on batteries?
3. Did old age kill the batteries (assuming they are dead) or did I kill them prematurely by keeping plugged in to shore power 365 days per year they way I do? If I did contribute, what's the better way to protect the batteries given that I do want to connect to show power always when at home?
4. Am I missing other issues?

I would appreciate assistance and thank you for it.

Gary
The Inverter uses the batteries to provide 115 VAC to a couple or more outlets. The Converter uses 115 VAC shore power to provide 12 VDC in your AS and to charge your batteries. I think you mean converter but if you're not on shore power then you might have the inverter on to provide 115 VAC for something.

You should never drop battery voltage below 12.2. To do that will deep cycle and damage the battery. You say you disconnected shore power at 10.5 VDC. Your batteries were pretty much dead at that point. When you are reading 13.7 VDC that is your converter charging up the batteries. If you switch to STORE you will probably see a drop in voltage because that usually (not newer AS) disconnects the converter from the batteries. If the reading after an hour is lower than 12.2 VDC then the batteries are not getting fully charged

1. Looks to me that your converter is working because you read 13.7 when you are on shore power. That electricity is provided by the converter
2. You can take the batteries out and take them to any auto parts store and they should be able to test them for you. It's a free service in the USA at every parts store I've been in.
3. I think your batteries are dead and need to be replaced. I don't think you have maintenance free batteries because you have vent caps on top. If you take the caps off you'll probably see the plates exposed. You need to check the acid level about every 3-4 weeks if you are going to keep the AS plugged in all the time. More frequently if your converter is not multi-stage. You do have solar panels but if you're staying plugged into shore power at home all the time then the panels are being overridden by the shore power.
4. Batteries, even maintenance free, aren't maintenance free. AGM batteries are sealed and you can't check the water level in those, so you may was to get those the next time. AGMs do need to be kept charged or they will also die. They do hold their charge for a long time, so that's the good news. The bad news is they are about double the price of regular deep cycle batteries. Always charge your batteries up to 12.7 and don't drop below 12.2 in use.

I keep my AS in storage with 2 12 volt AGM batteries charged by a solar panel. The only parasitic drain is the propane sensor/alarm. Use / Store always in Store in storage. I check the AS monthly and the charge is 12.7 VDC. The same batteries since early 2015 or 16, don't remember.
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Old 05-09-2021, 05:01 PM   #8
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In 2016, upon receipt of my new 2015 25A Twin Signature, I IMMEDIATELY upgraded the POS Parallax 8355 Converter (single stage) to a Progressive Dynamics 4655v Converter 4-stage). The Paralax is notorious of frying batteries when you consistently are plugged into shore power. Since it's a 1-stage converter-- which means it constantly charges the batteries whether the battery needs it or not. Bottom line: Change out the Converter and replace the batteries (they're toast). The reason I know this fact, is I made the same mistake on my 2014 23D Flying Cloud (which also had a parallax Converter)... it fried my brand new batteries -- I also kept 15-amp service applied while at the house.

Trust me on this fact!! Airstream only went with the WFCO Converter (multi-stage) in the 2018 or 2019 model years....
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Old 05-09-2021, 05:42 PM   #9
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If agree with the suggstions above, your converter/charger has probaly over charged and fried your batteries. You can check the water level and get them load tested to verify. You will probably need to replace your batteries and consider upgrading you coverter/charger or not leave the trailer plugged in all the time with the batteries "in use". --Frank
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:01 PM   #10
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Thanks all for the input. Who knew that 'maintenance free" meant I had to check levels. Looking at them now I shouldn't have thought that was so ... they have caps for goodness sake. The caps are "ganged" in two three-cap assemblies and I see that the battery wiring prevents them opening. I'll take the wires off tomorrow, open the caps and report back.

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Old 05-09-2021, 06:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by richw46 View Post


3. ... You need to check the acid level about every 3-4 weeks if you are going to keep the AS plugged in all the time. More frequently if your converter is not multi-stage. You do have solar panels but if you're staying plugged into shore power at home all the time then the panels are being overridden by the shore power.
...

I keep my AS in storage with 2 12 volt AGM batteries charged by a solar panel. The only parasitic drain is the propane sensor/alarm. Use / Store always in Store in storage. I check the AS monthly and the charge is 12.7 VDC. The same batteries since early 2015 or 16, don't remember.
Thanks Rich.

The solar panels are portable and live in the basement unless we go camping where there isn't power. I don't use them at home to keep the batteries charged up. I thought the AS did that through the Converter.

Questions:

1. Is the Converter part of the same "box" that is the Inverter in my AS?

2. How do I know whether my Converter is multi-stage?

3. If I do keep my AS plugged into shore power at home i.e. in the winter I use the heat pump to heat the AS, do I keep the Use/Store switch on "Use"?

Gary
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:04 PM   #12
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Your inverter is a small box that converts some of your battery power to 110V for TV or small appliance.. The "Converter" is the box under the couch that takes in 110V and converts to 12V for lighting, fridge control board, and power jack, among others.. Airstream supplies a "2 stage" power converter that is supposed to reduce charging voltage as batteries near full charge, but often will overcharge them, leading to drying out the cells and killing the batteries..


Solar panels/chargers are supposed to have their own "charge controllers" to monitor output into batteries, but many aren't very good at it.. Any time you are using anything inside the trailer, the Use/Store switch needs to be in "USE" mode.. It defaults to Use mode when you plug in trailer.. Not always appreciated, when unplugged and in "Store" mode the batteries will die in a week or two, since the propane leak detector and potentially the inverter can continue to suck power out of the batteries.. The only sure way to save batteries when unused for more than a week or two is to disconnect them from the trailer physically, with either screw connector or knife edge switch, or by removing a cable from the battery post...
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Old 05-10-2021, 07:47 AM   #13
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Any time you are using anything inside the trailer, the Use/Store switch needs to be in "USE" mode.. It defaults to Use mode when you plug in trailer..
This isn't always true, it depends on the AS and any PO modifications. In ours the red light on the switch panel indicates the presence of 12 VDC. This can be from being in the Use position or from shore power. In ours, if there is shore power the red light is on even if the switch is in Store. There is 12 VDC in the AS but the batteries are not being charged. The switch has to be in Use position for that to happen.

Some owners have modified their switch to always charge when there is shore power and later model AS are wired that way.
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Old 05-10-2021, 08:10 AM   #14
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Thanks Rich.

The solar panels are portable and live in the basement unless we go camping where there isn't power. I don't use them at home to keep the batteries charged up. I thought the AS did that through the Converter.

Questions:

1. Is the Converter part of the same "box" that is the Inverter in my AS?

2. How do I know whether my Converter is multi-stage?

3. If I do keep my AS plugged into shore power at home i.e. in the winter I use the heat pump to heat the AS, do I keep the Use/Store switch on "Use"?

Gary
The Converter and Inverter are usually 2 different boxes in 2 different areas. The Converter drops 115 VAC to 12 VDC. The Inverter does the opposite to power outlets in the AS. These are usually marked with a blue label on the face of the outlet.

Check your owners manual for the converter. If you don't have one you can look at the converter and get the make and model number, then Google it. Most likely you have a 2 stage if your AS has never been upgraded. We bought our 2006 in 2014 and the WFCO original converter would not properly charge the batteries. I replaced it with the PD4655 like Condoluminum did.

Your heat pump is obviously on 115 VAC. So do you keep the switch in Use or Store? With a 4 stage like the PD4655 I would say yes. With a 2 stage like the OEM converter I would say no, but then I don't know if it makes a difference in your AS. Does yours charge in the Store position?

Your safest bet is to take them out and get a separate charger to monitor the charge and keep an eye on the water level if not AGM. If there are caps on top then you can monitor water levels. Some maintenance free even allow you to add water, caps are under the label.

You could also disconnect the batteries, leave them in the AS and put a charger at the battery connection (protect from rain), run a wire inside the garage or to outside outlet. Here's one I found on Amazon but I don't have any personal experience with it. https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS2X.../dp/B08F37P7H3

My AS has the solar panel which keeps my batteries charged in storage. My boat has 3 batteries and the boat has an onboard charger, each battery is monitored separately. I keep it plugged in all the time but because I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy I put a heavy duty timer on the charger. It comes on twice a day for 30 minutes. No chance of overcharging. I check water levels about once a month in warm weather.
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Old 05-10-2021, 10:06 AM   #15
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Hi

The stock charger / converter in an Airstream is not the greatest. The one thing it does *not* do is run batteries up to a high voltage and dry them out. A multi-stage converter / charger *does* do this. The things people recommend you "upgrade" to actually are worse in this respect.

Any battery left hooked to any charger for years and years is not going to be a happy battery. That's true if it's flooded or AGM. They have different issues when you abuse them this way, but they both take a hit. Five or six years is doing very well for a battery in this case. Put another way, there's noting odd / wrong. You simply wore out the batteries.

So time for a new set of batteries. Your trailer came with a pair of 12V batteries wired in parallel. It was converted to two 6V batteries wired in series. That might have given you a 10% boost in capacity. It depends a *lot* on exactly which batteries you went from and to.

As you describe your use case, you pretty much never use batteries. The one time you *must* have them is when you are towing down the road. With dead batteries, your break away brakes will not function. That's a hazard and ... errr .... against the law. The rest of the time, it sounds like you simply don't need batteries.

Easy answer in this case: get the cheapest "on sale" deep cycle batteries you can find at Costco this month. Run them for 4 years and replace them. Far cheaper than any alternative.

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Old 05-10-2021, 10:43 AM   #16
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Connected wrong?

I enlarged the photo just to be sure, but you have connected positive and negative terminals together.

Can't say whether that caused the problem you are experiencing, but it can't help.

Generally a good idea to use RED for positive connections (and jumpers) and BLACK for negative.
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:23 PM   #17
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I enlarged the photo just to be sure, but you have connected positive and negative terminals together.

Can't say whether that caused the problem you are experiencing, but it can't help.

Generally a good idea to use RED for positive connections (and jumpers) and BLACK for negative.
For 2 6v parallel batteries to produce 12v, connect +from 1st battery to + to the house. then connect - from 1st battery to + of 2nd battery, then connect - from 2nd to ground to house. In summary, - from 1st battery connects to + of 2nd battery.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:42 PM   #18
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For 2 6v parallel batteries to produce 12v, connect +from 1st battery to + to the house. then connect - from 1st battery to + of 2nd battery, then connect - from 2nd to ground to house. In summary, - from 1st battery connects to + of 2nd battery.
They are connected in series to produce 12v.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:47 PM   #19
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Thanks all for the input. Who knew that 'maintenance free" meant I had to check levels. Looking at them now I shouldn't have thought that was so ... they have caps for goodness sake. The caps are "ganged" in two three-cap assemblies and I see that the battery wiring prevents them opening. I'll take the wires off tomorrow, open the caps and report back.

Gary
I finally got the batteries out. Odd how 6v batteries don't come with lifting straps but two heavy rubber truck bungies were up to the task and easy on the hands.

The batteries were dry, dry, dry. My bad. Shopping on line at Canadian Tire for new ones. I think I'll replace it with 2 x 6v batteries simple because the battery box already has a tray there for 2x6v and the correct hold down.

I will follow up with a post in this thread summarizing what I think I've learned from all the helpful comments and you can let me know whether I've got it straight now.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:26 AM   #20
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I got a little squeeze bottle for my boat batteries and I always keep a jug of distilled water handy. Good luck with the new batteries. If you take care of them they last a long time.
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