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Old 04-14-2021, 08:37 PM   #1
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Charged Voltage setting for Victron BMV-712 battery monitor with LiFePO4's?

Hi there,

It's warmed up enough over the last couple weeks that I've been working on getting the new lithium batteries I purchased last November installed - as well as all the other components I'm adding or upgrading. One of those is the Victron BMV-712 battery monitor and I'm unsure of what I should set the Charged Voltage parameter to.

The default Charged Voltage setting is 13.2V out of the box and the manual states "this parameter should always be slightly below the end of charge voltage of the charger (usually 0.2V or 0.3V below the "float" voltage of the charger)". I am also installing a new WFCO lithium compatible 2 stage charger/converter that has a normal mode voltage of 13.6V and a bulk charger mode voltage of 14.6V - so I don't have a float mode voltage.

Can anyone help with this question? Would I set it to 13.3V or 13.4V to be 0.2V or 0.3V under the normal mode voltage?

Cheers,
Dion
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Old 04-14-2021, 09:30 PM   #2
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AM Solar recommends setting the Charged Voltage to 13.9V for lithium batteries.

https://amsolar.com/rv-solar/support
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Old 04-15-2021, 08:25 AM   #3
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Thanks OutdoorIdaho - this is exactly the type of info I was looking for!
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Old 04-15-2021, 07:22 PM   #4
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What brand lithium’s? Battery manufacturers have different specs.
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Old 04-15-2021, 07:39 PM   #5
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They're Lynac Lithium True Series batteries. I checked with the owner (Conor) and he agreed with the settings... but there are some that seem pretty consistent across the various lithium manufacturers based on the AM Solar link above.
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:20 AM   #6
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Hi

If your charger gets up to 14.6V ( you need to check if it does ), then set the voltage to 14.4V. ( = 14.6 - 0.2 ). That's what the instructions say to do and that seems to work very well.

The reasoning is pretty simple: This is the voltage that the 712 resets its self at. Once you get to this voltage, the device says "hey, it must be 100% full". The key point is that you would *prefer* the reset to happen later rather than sooner. Without that reset, various round off errors eventually throw the device off a bit.

The biggest thing to make sure you get right is the "efficiency" setting. There is no "charging loss" in a Lithium the way there is in a lead acid.

Bob
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:29 AM   #7
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Go Power LiFePo wants 14.6v

Alternatively, my intent is to set the Boondocker Powerstation to static mode with 14.6 max charge voltage as the mfgr recommends, and will depend on the batteries' internal BMS to sort out the charge, float, equalize (or LiFePo equivalent - cell balance?) according to the mfgr's sales literature.

Am I missing something? Many more experienced folks here. If I am hearing "don't got to 14.6 max, back it off a bit because ______" I am all ears.

I understand that I may be mixing metaphors as the thread is about the Victron 712 - which I see does ask for 13.6 charged setting.

Thanks!
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Old 04-16-2021, 12:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjshier View Post
Alternatively, my intent is to set the Boondocker Powerstation to static mode with 14.6 max charge voltage as the mfgr recommends, and will depend on the batteries' internal BMS to sort out the charge, float, equalize (or LiFePo equivalent - cell balance?) according to the mfgr's sales literature.

Am I missing something? Many more experienced folks here. If I am hearing "don't got to 14.6 max, back it off a bit because ______" I am all ears.

I understand that I may be mixing metaphors as the thread is about the Victron 712 - which I see does ask for 13.6 charged setting.

Thanks!
I believe the Boondocker has 3 settings in the "fixed" mode. 14.7, 13.6, and 13.2. If that is true, what device is controlling the charge? The boondocker or the BMS in the battery. I have a call into Battleborn for this answer. Their literature suggests using 14.6v bulk, 13.8 absorption and 13.6 float. There is some question if the float is even used.

By the way, the boondocker is adjustable on the side of the unit for a range between 13.2 - 16.5 dc Volts. You adjust a pot with a Phillips screwdriver. I have mine set to 14.60v. It comes from the factory set at 14.72v.
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Old 04-16-2021, 02:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjshier View Post
Alternatively, my intent is to set the Boondocker Powerstation to static mode with 14.6 max charge voltage as the mfgr recommends, and will depend on the batteries' internal BMS to sort out the charge, float, equalize (or LiFePo equivalent - cell balance?) according to the mfgr's sales literature.

Am I missing something? Many more experienced folks here. If I am hearing "don't got to 14.6 max, back it off a bit because ______" I am all ears.

I understand that I may be mixing metaphors as the thread is about the Victron 712 - which I see does ask for 13.6 charged setting.

Thanks!
Just heard back from Battleborn and what I heard shocked me! They said that the Boondocker was a great charger but that Progressive dynamics has a new two-stage lithium charger coming out that does not require "resting" the batteries once in a while. Resting the batteries????? What was he talking about? He gave me the new Prog Dynamics part number and said they have it in stock. hmmmmmm.

I called Randy at Best Converter and he said he was tired of hearing that sh-- from a certain person at Battleborn. The BMS controls the cutoff of the voltage. The part number battleborn gave me is NOT a two-stage charger and in fact, Randy carries it in stock! 9160alv single voltage charger. I am a bit concerned that there is a person at Battleborn pushing out misleading info to the public.

The charger I bought 1260cl will work just fine. I will set it "fixed" at 14.6 and let the BMS figure it out. Isn't that what it is supposed to do? Manage the battery?
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Old 04-17-2021, 07:33 AM   #10
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Hi

You do *not* want to keep your lithium's at 14.x V all the time. It's a bad idea. If you have a choice, don't do it. Will most batteries *tolerate* it? Sure they will. That's different than them running at their best.

Far better to run a charger that *does* get up above 14.4 for a while and then backs down to something in the 13.5 to 13.9V range. Less wear and tear.

Now, if you *sell* batteries (not chargers) and you don't want to offend *any* of the charger outfits, you have a problem. Some chargers out there that have "Lithium Compatible" on them in giant letters are single voltage chargers. "Sir, do your Lithium batteries work with a Lithium charger?" .... hint: your answer is yes. If you answer no, then you have just said you have "incompatible batteries that are really finicky". That's not the PR you want out there ....

So yes, I get why what gets said is said.That does not make it "best practice".

Bob
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:57 AM   #11
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a little more than po-TA-to or po-TAH-to here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turk123 View Post
Just heard back from Battleborn and what I heard shocked me! They said that the Boondocker was a great charger but that Progressive dynamics has a new two-stage lithium charger coming out that does not require "resting" the batteries once in a while. Resting the batteries????? What was he talking about? He gave me the new Prog Dynamics part number and said they have it in stock. hmmmmmm.

I called Randy at Best Converter and he said he was tired of hearing that sh-- from a certain person at Battleborn. The BMS controls the cutoff of the voltage. The part number battleborn gave me is NOT a two-stage charger and in fact, Randy carries it in stock! 9160alv single voltage charger. I am a bit concerned that there is a person at Battleborn pushing out misleading info to the public.

The charger I bought 1260cl will work just fine. I will set it "fixed" at 14.6 and let the BMS figure it out. Isn't that what it is supposed to do? Manage the battery?
Turk123 and Uncle Bob - I appreciate both perspectives, and both approaches are consistent with others here and elsewhere. Hence, you will forgive my confusion and remaining uncertainty regarding my decision to take all the available input so far and use the Boondocker with the pot set at 14.6v, even if it becomes apparent at some point it was a suboptimal approach. A little less than optimal, if that's the result, while not bursting into flame or other such unpleasantness, will be OK for now in this first foray into the world of lithium.

I support a very remote 16X16 cabin in a national park with 360w solar and silicone electrolyte batteries; works well and won't freeze. The current set up is round three of a multi-year learning by doing process. I suspect this RV power project will be the same.
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Old 04-17-2021, 03:08 PM   #12
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Turk123 and Uncle Bob - I appreciate both perspectives, and both approaches are consistent with others here and elsewhere. Hence, you will forgive my confusion and remaining uncertainty regarding my decision to take all the available input so far and use the Boondocker with the pot set at 14.6v, even if it becomes apparent at some point it was a suboptimal approach. A little less than optimal, if that's the result, while not bursting into flame or other such unpleasantness, will be OK for now in this first foray into the world of lithium.

I support a very remote 16X16 cabin in a national park with 360w solar and silicone electrolyte batteries; works well and won't freeze. The current set up is round three of a multi-year learning by doing process. I suspect this RV power project will be the same.

I'm learning more and more about lithium and specifically Battleborn batteries. Here is Will talking to the CEO of Battleborn about Battleborn's charge profile. Listen to what is said (9:10) about charging fully to 100% and how it promotes cell and multiple battery balancing.

https://youtu.be/ywn-vBjKblI
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Old 04-18-2021, 07:52 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by turk123 View Post
I'm learning more and more about lithium and specifically Battleborn batteries. Here is Will talking to the CEO of Battleborn about Battleborn's charge profile. Listen to what is said (9:10) about charging fully to 100% and how it promotes cell and multiple battery balancing.

https://youtu.be/ywn-vBjKblI
Hi

There are *lots* of permutations and combinations in terms of charging.

Topic 1: Should the charger fold back to a lower voltage: Indeed it should.

Topic 2: Should you store batteries "full" or should they *always* be discharged? (a very different topic than 1). Depending on the chemistry of the battery, you may get different answers. With LiFePO4, 100% charge seems to be ok. Note again, this is *not* the same as 14.x V all the time.

Topic 3: Are lithiums "fully charged" at 13.8V? If they are resting *and* were perviously charged to 14.6 *and* they have not been discharged ... yes ... they meet the definition of fully charged. Are they at 100.0 or 105.4 or 101.3% ... who knows. If on the other hand, they have been discharged and you are still putting 80A into them at 13.8 ... no, they are not fully charged yet.

Topic 4: Do lithiums need to be balanced? I think pretty much everybody agrees that they do. Most BMS setups do this at the end of the charge cycle. They get the pack as topped up as it can get. They then go into a balance mode to get things touched up. Without doing this the charge level between cells can get out of whack. If you *don't* ever get into the 14.4 to 14.6 (or whatever your BMS wants) range for a while ... you never balance the cells.

Topic 4: I have a lithium and you have a lithium. Why are the voltages you talk about *very* different than the ones I *know* are correct? There are a whole bunch of different lithium chemistries. Each part of the universe that uses a chemistry goes with the shorthand of "lithium" to describe it. RV batteries are normally LiFePO4 chemistry. Switch to something else and all bets are off. When we talk about "lithium" here, we mean "lithium based on LiFePO4 chemistry".

Yes this could go on and on. The point is, you can quickly get *very* tangled up as you dig into this stuff. Context matters a *lot* when you talk about these batteries.

Fun !!

Bob
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Old 04-19-2021, 01:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turk123 View Post
Just heard back from Battleborn and what I heard shocked me! They said that the Boondocker was a great charger but that Progressive dynamics has a new two-stage lithium charger coming out that does not require "resting" the batteries once in a while. Resting the batteries????? What was he talking about? He gave me the new Prog Dynamics part number and said they have it in stock. hmmmmmm.

I called Randy at Best Converter and he said he was tired of hearing that sh-- from a certain person at Battleborn. The BMS controls the cutoff of the voltage. The part number battleborn gave me is NOT a two-stage charger and in fact, Randy carries it in stock! 9160alv single voltage charger. I am a bit concerned that there is a person at Battleborn pushing out misleading info to the public.

The charger I bought 1260cl will work just fine. I will set it "fixed" at 14.6 and let the BMS figure it out. Isn't that what it is supposed to do? Manage the battery?
Thread has has gone a bit off the OP's original question, but wanted to chime in with this in support of Bob's comment above.

I am currently using a Progressive Dyn PV4655Liv for charging a 200ah BB lithium bank. It was a drop-in replacement for the OEM converter in the WFCO-8955 power center. It's single stage and charges at a constant 14.6 volts, the upper limit of what Battle Born recommends for the absorption stage. Same converter that Battle Born sells but I bought it from Progressive Dyn.'s seller, Leisure Time Distributing. I figured if Battle Born was selling it, it was OK for their batteries. Straight-forward installation, reasonably priced and works as advertised.

However, concerned with the constant charge voltage, I searched and found this interview with the Battle Born CEO on YouTube. At 12:42, he addresses the question of constant high voltage charging over a long period of time.



Supports what Bob said above. A constant 14.6 won't hurt the batteries if it's for a few days or a week, but months of constant charging at high voltage could accelerate aging of the batteries. WFCO has since come out with a 2-stage charger for lithium, so I am now considering that. In the meantime, I flip the battery switch when connected to shore power and after the battery is topped off.
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Old 04-20-2021, 06:56 AM   #15
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Supports what Bob said above. A constant 14.6 won't hurt the batteries if it's for a few days or a week, but months of constant charging at high voltage could accelerate aging of the batteries. WFCO has since come out with a 2-stage charger for lithium, so I am now considering that. In the meantime, I flip the battery switch when connected to shore power and after the battery is topped off.

I do see your point, Bob. For my use, we travel a lot. The charge profile on my Victron solar will have different stages. I'm disconnecting the alternate circuit so I will not be charging from my TV. The batteries will not get charged (except by the sun) during 6-8 hours of traveling.

So how do I isolate the charger from the batteries when hooked to shore power? My battery disconnect switch I installed will do that, but won't it also remove 12v power from the trailer? If the batteries are disconnected will the charge/converter supply power to the trailer? I'm trying to read the schematic, but electrical is not my thing!
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Old 04-21-2021, 12:13 AM   #16
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The OEM battery disconnect switch on my Bambi 22 disconnects the battery from the charger/converter, but the 12vdc circuits still receive power when connected to shore power. Even though it explains that in the manual, I didn’t quite get it until I actually observed it. I’m not great reading wiring diagrams either.

So, yes, the converter/charger should supply power to the 12vdc circuits, so long as your battery switch is not also disconnecting the power to the 12vdc distribution panel. I have not modified the 12vdc wiring in my trailer, nor added any switches.

Hope this helps.
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Old 04-21-2021, 08:31 AM   #17
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Supports what Bob said above. A constant 14.6 won't hurt the batteries if it's for a few days or a week, but months of constant charging at high voltage could accelerate aging of the batteries. WFCO has since come out with a 2-stage charger for lithium, so I am now considering that. In the meantime, I flip the battery switch when connected to shore power and after the battery is topped off.

I do see your point, Bob. For my use, we travel a lot. The charge profile on my Victron solar will have different stages. I'm disconnecting the alternate circuit so I will not be charging from my TV. The batteries will not get charged (except by the sun) during 6-8 hours of traveling.

So how do I isolate the charger from the batteries when hooked to shore power? My battery disconnect switch I installed will do that, but won't it also remove 12v power from the trailer? If the batteries are disconnected will the charge/converter supply power to the trailer? I'm trying to read the schematic, but electrical is not my thing!
Hi

Basically, just let them fight it out. Nothing is damaged in the process. The batteries will be fine. The only point is that only one device will be supplying power at a time. That will always be one that does a pretty good job. No need to worry about it.

Bob
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:16 AM   #18
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Wink Not sure about the Victron, but I know LiFePO4 pretty well.

Here is a table for SOC versus "battery pack voltage" at standard temperature and pressure conditions, for individual cells and for battery packs of 12v, 24v, and 48v:




Having come from the land of lead-acid batteries (where 100% SOC is always best in storage), most manufacturers or power converters have chosen to charge at 14.6 Volts. But, as Bob described, LFP battery packs do not prefer to be stored at 100% SOC all the time (it reduces their lifespan a lot).

In moving up from 13.8V to 14.6V, you gain almost nothing in energy being stored. But higher voltage (14.2V and higher) does give you the opportunity to balance the cells. This function depends on the internal programming of your BMS - which I will describe in only generic terms, although some persons () have programmed different parameters for RV battery packs, with specific goals in mind.

We're now looking at the individual cells within the battery pack (4 cells in series, possibly with more than one parallel set of 4 "smaller" cells used within the battery case). With typical "LFP" BMS programming, the balancing function does not begin to be invoked until the cell Voltage has reached about 3.5 Volts - so you need more than 14.0 volts across the entire pack, for it to even begin. But typical BMS will allow individual cells to reach up to 3.65 Volts before terminating the "balancing charge" charge on that specific cell. 3.65 * 4 = 14.6 Volts. You will push all 4 cells up to that maximum if you apply 14.6 Volts until the BMS ends all charge current. Charging at higher Voltage, or even continuing to charge @ 14.6V after that point, only causes the BMS to work too hard, rejecting the unwanted energy.
- - -
Last thing in this post - I'd like to discuss a lower charging value, such as 14.4V. This would seem to be attractive, obtaining nearly 100% SOC of the battery pack - but it possibly creates an issue in balancing the cells. In most battery packs, you will have a "laggard" cell, which needs to be pushed at the end of the process. 14.4V is an average of 3.60 Volts per cell - which sounds wonderful, until you remember that default programming of LFP 'Battery Management Systems' allows up to 3.65 per cell.

What will happen is - the "well-behaved cells" will all suck in power to reach 3.65 Volts. But with only 14.4V available, there is only 3.45V left to push the "laggard" cell. (You will not achieve the average, they will be left unbalanced). 14.2V is worse, of course, and should not be considered.

The optimal choice, for battery pack lifespan is to reprogram the BMS - topping out at only 3.60 Volts per cell. But charging to 14.4V "most of the time", and only occasionally pushing a higher balancing charge of 14.6V (from a different charger) is also an excellent compromise, IMO.
- - -
The bottom lines are: 14.6V all the time is quite bad for battery lifespan; more than 14.6 is crazy; and less than 14.4 all the time is very bad for maintenance of cell balance within the battery pack. A two stage, with "CV" at 14.6 Volts for a limited period followed by "Float" around 13.7 Volts is pretty good.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:26 PM   #19
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After hearing all this I’m beginning to feel glad I bought a Victron
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