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Old 11-01-2020, 04:47 AM   #1
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Battle Born Battery design support?

Based on threads here and YouTube videos and bloggers, I was looking forward to contacting Battle Born to begin the build of my lithium battery upgrade.
I described my Airstream, past electrical usage, stock AGM and 80W solar performance, and my future goals for camping. I wanted to start with two BB 100AH batteries, a monitor, a Victron multistage, and asked about concerns using portable solar panels, the existing TV 7-pin, and where I need isolation switches, fuses and shunts.
I got back a diagram for a van, and a price quote for three BB batteries, monitor, 50 amp MPPT unit, a victron 50 amp Multiplus, with the suggestion I get two of them to support each side of my electrical panel. I hesitate to pull the trigger on the purchase without having my questions answered, and really hesitate being pushed to the third battery and second Multiplus when I have no intention to cover the roof with solar panels.
Have I taken a wrong turn here, and instead should be talking to installers like Airstream Nuts & Bolts or AmSolar or others for the design detail?
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Old 11-01-2020, 05:13 AM   #2
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In my experience, it would be hard to beat AM Solar for solid advice and assistance pre-purchase and during your build.
Larry
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:15 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron2010 View Post
Based on threads here and YouTube videos and bloggers, I was looking forward to contacting Battle Born to begin the build of my lithium battery upgrade.
I described my Airstream, past electrical usage, stock AGM and 80W solar performance, and my future goals for camping. I wanted to start with two BB 100AH batteries, a monitor, a Victron multistage, and asked about concerns using portable solar panels, the existing TV 7-pin, and where I need isolation switches, fuses and shunts.
I got back a diagram for a van, and a price quote for three BB batteries, monitor, 50 amp MPPT unit, a victron 50 amp Multiplus, with the suggestion I get two of them to support each side of my electrical panel. I hesitate to pull the trigger on the purchase without having my questions answered, and really hesitate being pushed to the third battery and second Multiplus when I have no intention to cover the roof with solar panels.
Have I taken a wrong turn here, and instead should be talking to installers like Airstream Nuts & Bolts or AmSolar or others for the design detail?
Call them...I have, several times, always with very satisfactory results.👍

Bob
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:31 AM   #4
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I’ve installed many system in Airstreams just like what you are wanting to do.
50A systems can go one of 3 ways.
#1 Wire in a Sub-Panel: This allow you to run select items via the inverter when needed. This is probably the least popular way to wire a system this day and time due to there being better options available
#2 Use two MultiPlus inverters (one to feed each phase of your 50A service). This is done by setting up a master/slave system with the two inverters. This is more costly both in cash and battery power as you will need to purchase a second inverter and also feed it. This method works very well but as mentioned has it draw backs due to size of the overall system.
#3 Use a SPS (Smart Phase Selector) from AM Solar. This is an automatic transfer switch that switches between 50A shore power and 30A inverter power automatically while working as a 50A-30A dogbone while in 30A mode allowing you to power the entire main panel (up to 30A) of the inverter without having to pre select which item have inverter access. Better said like this... the inverter can run anything in the main panel or combinations of items up to its 30A limit. (I prefer this method) This SPS also allows the Power Assist, and Current limit features of the MultiPlus to function properly on 50A shore power

Two 100Ah BattleBorn batteries is marginal to run a 3000W MultiPlus. This is not due to the 200Ah available bank size but due to the 100A rate of discharge for each battery. (Giving 200A Total discharge rate). This is limited by the batteries BMS. A 3000W inverter can draw as much as 250A. Though I do not see that large of a draw on most systems it “could” happen. (Most Large draws I see are 150A-170A). Adding a third battery will give you a Max of 300A draw which is better suited for the MultiPlus.
I find the best battery bank size for these inverters are at least 300Ah.

As far as sizing the rest of your system I would need more specs.
You could probably get by with a 100/30 MPPT
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:26 AM   #5
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Sometime I wonder if I stupid or just don't buy the hype surronding this whole "spend thousands of dollars for Victron/Battleborn Systems" to have power when not connected to electrical hook-up. We have a very simple system - 2x100ah SOC lithium batteries + IOTA lithium smart charger/converter + 200w solar on the roof with 180w suitcase via 7pin if required + 300w pure sine inverter (to grind fresh coffee in the morning) this supports us when camping and all we do is boondock usually 14 days at a time. Total cost was under $2000.00 - PS we do carry a Champion 3400 running off LP which we used about 10 hours in 3 months - Help me understand why the need to spend $10,000 + is it to run your microwave or AC what???? Sorry I just don't get it.
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:37 AM   #6
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My system has similar capabilities to yours, with all Victron stuff. Works fine for us and our camping style. I suspect you are just hearing from the few that have gone whole hog and want to capable of running everything in their trailer, all of the time. My system might have cost your $10k or more, installed, but I did it myself a few years ago as AM Solar was making all of the Victron stuff available and supporting DIY'ers.
Beauty is today, you can get by for even less with drop-in Lithiums, a new charger-converter and have all of the advantages of Lithium. That is just camping the way the Airstream was designed.
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:51 AM   #7
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I think that’s the key. If you want lithium for light electrical load but the increased capacity you can do a much simpler system. IMHO that what the factor solution is. If you want to be able to power the trailer (a/c, microwave etc) then you really need to jump in with lots of capacity and solar.

My choice was KISS (200 Ahrs with 360 watts solar). Even left the stock inverter in place cause all I do with it is occasionally turn on the TV and require it first thing in the morning to grind coffee. ☕️.

If I don’t have enough solar a suitcase will be next step.
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Old 11-01-2020, 10:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
In my experience, it would be hard to beat AM Solar for solid advice and assistance pre-purchase and during your build.
Larry
You will not regret AM Solar doing your upgrade.
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Old 11-01-2020, 10:11 AM   #9
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I think AM Solar may be a victim of their own success.

Last week I filled out a detailed online form outlining the type of system I was interested in. I received a form letter reply advising that they were booked out through January and that they weren’t currently taking new customers. I was asked what my budget was and what time frame I wanted the work completed. I found it difficult to provide a budget when I didn’t know what I needed.

Upon sending another email I was advised that a typical airstream installation was $12 - 13K. The reply back from AM Solar had the phone number removed and a statement that says “blocked, I can call you by appointment if you email”:

Here’s what he said: “It's not that we aren't interested, it's that demand is so high we can no longer guarantee a phone call or conversation in these early quote stages. We really are 60 people behind.

If this estimate sounds like what you had in mind, let me know, and I can add you to our queue for possible response, but we can't make any promises at this time.

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Old 11-01-2020, 10:37 AM   #10
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Hi

If you take it slow and do your homework (we *are* headed into winter storage time in most of the country ....) you can indeed do all of this on a DIY basis. The cost of the batteries is likely to be the biggest chunk of the budget. Four X 100AH is a nice number ...

If doing anything like this gives you heartburn, turn it over to a pro and let them do the work. You *will* pay for a pro, they don't work for free. You also will get results that are better than your first attempt at DIY on a system like this.

There will *always* be a tradeoff between "cheap and more risk" vs "expensive and safe" when you buy components. You also are likely to run into the fact that more features cost more money. That's all just how the world works. Your risk tolerance and your bank balance will determine how you address that.

The one thing it is not reasonable to expect is for a pro to work for free. "Can you give me a full detailed map of how to do this with stuff I didn't buy from you?" is a question that you should not expect a quick answer on. A big chunk of what you pay a pro is for the planning and pre-install effort. The guy will quickly go broke trying to support DIY for free ....

Fun !!

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Old 11-01-2020, 11:19 AM   #11
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I’m living in my 25’ Sovereign full time, it’s 30A. I have 2 BB 100ah batteries, ProStar MPPT, 3000w GoPower inverter, a transfer switch for inverter when plugged into shore, GoPower smart charger, and a 320w panel. It all works excellent! I knew nothing about solar and I did this all myself by watching videos and talking to a local solar guy that has a shop here in Arizona. Also it was cool to find out that morning star and battle born teamed up to put out specs on how to set up their products to work together effectively. I was nervous the whole time that I was doing it right but I took my time and everything works great. The only thing I would say is that if you’re running anything continuously on your 120 V outlet then you will need that third battery. I plan to eventually get a third simply because my panel can charge it and to me it’s nice to have that extra juice when needed. I don’t remember the exact price for the two batteries and everything else I mentioned above but I know it was under $3500 as I recall. To me it’s well worth it considering I live in it and utilize the power every single day, it’s more than paid for itself.
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Old 11-01-2020, 11:19 AM   #12
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We are going with Airstream nuts and bolts. (And have already booked an appointment.). We bought our Airstream used and AM solar did the install on the solar before we purchased it. iIn our opinion, it is just not as neat and organized as Airstream nuts and bolts’ work. They moved the subwoofer stuck it in the closet crooked and just bolted everything down willy-nilly here and there... we are having it all redone. We did not hire a.m. solar and maybe their work has changed but we just had more faith in Ronnie. His work is impeccable, neat, organized, and we just feel better about that decision.
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Old 11-01-2020, 11:33 AM   #13
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My "lewster" and AM Solar system, installed almost 5 years ago, has been flawless. In the long run the total cost can be amortized over the life of the trailer, except that the battery life will have an unknown finite life, but probably longer than we will need. You could conceivably take out a loan to cover every thing using your trailer's equity as collateral. Also, I have a compost toilet with the urine plumbed into the black tank. When the grey and black tanks are combined I have 76gal of "waste" storage. I water my flower beds with it when I return from a trip. The main thing I like is never needing hook ups. That my fellow "Streamers" is convenience.
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Old 11-01-2020, 11:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbrick View Post
Sometime I wonder if I stupid or just don't buy the hype surronding this whole "spend thousands of dollars for Victron/Battleborn Systems" to have power when not connected to electrical hook-up. We have a very simple system - 2x100ah SOC lithium batteries + IOTA lithium smart charger/converter + 200w solar on the roof with 180w suitcase via 7pin if required + 300w pure sine inverter (to grind fresh coffee in the morning) this supports us when camping and all we do is boondock usually 14 days at a time. Total cost was under $2000.00 - PS we do carry a Champion 3400 running off LP which we used about 10 hours in 3 months - Help me understand why the need to spend $10,000 + is it to run your microwave or AC what???? Sorry I just don't get it.
I agree it’s not for everyone, but for some whom travel and work from their rigs it is. Power demands vary greatly from person to person. I do not think it is about running the microwave or AC as much as it is the convenience of not having to worry about it.
You are probably retired and camp to get away from it all. ( just a guess)
Some of us can’t “get away from it all”. Kids in school on the road, work, ie normal life but portable....
We have our rig set up to “live in“ not just travel in. Having all the conveniences of power hook up off grid without the need to run a generator for months at a time.

It really all boils down to preference. To each their on I guess.
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Old 11-01-2020, 12:22 PM   #15
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I recently changed from AGM batteries to 2 Battleborn, installed under the front dinette bench. Very clean and neat install. Victron inverter and solar controller. I now have the front battery cabinet open and use it for my power cord, water hose, and tool for my hitch. Works out nicely.

The work was done by Colonial Airstream in New Jersey. The tech was very knowledgeable and did a very clean neat job. I do not understand all the electronics, but it was much more cost effective. Was about $3400 all in. We used it for 5 week trip, with alternating camping at National Forest campgrounds with no services, and full service sites. My batteries lasted 3 days. I could not get a full day out of the stock system.

It looks like AS has a great deal of experience and are often recommended, but I would also check out the Airstream dealers who have a skilled tech who can work it for your system.
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Old 11-01-2020, 12:31 PM   #16
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I recently changed from AGM batteries to 2 Battleborn, installed under the front dinette bench. Very clean and neat install. Victron inverter and solar controller. I now have the front battery cabinet open and use it for my power cord, water hose, and tool for my hitch. Works out nicely.

The work was done by Colonial Airstream in New Jersey. The tech was very knowledgeable and did a very clean neat job. I do not understand all the electronics, but it was much more cost effective. Was about $3400 all in. We used it for 5 week trip, with alternating camping at National Forest campgrounds with no services, and full service sites. My batteries lasted 3 days. I could not get a full day out of the stock system.

It looks like AS has a great deal of experience and are often recommended, but I would also check out the Airstream dealers who have a skilled tech who can work it for your system.

That was a very reasonble price. You got a bargain, but I'm not sure they would do that deal again as it was nearly at cost and they did not pad their expensive labor costs. Again, you got a great deal. Probably the equivalent of free-labor install.
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Old 11-01-2020, 12:40 PM   #17
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i emailed them last moth asking " when will we be able to to order the GC3 250Ah battery" no response yet
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Old 11-01-2020, 05:46 PM   #18
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Help me understand why the need to spend $10,000 + is it to run your microwave or AC what???? Sorry I just don't get it.
Ditto, my setup cost me less than 3K$ (with 4 quality industrial flooded 6V batteries that will last for years) and I don't remember needing to fire up the generator to charge them, and we camp off grid 90% of the time (better camping spots) and we use the TVs, the hair dryer, the sound system, our computers/pads/pods/phones, the water pump, the furnace, but we don't have or need a microwave (we are in no particular rush... but we do use the gas oven!). I suppose for some we are roughing it!

The key factor is AC. I figured we will never be running the AC off battery power, at least not in a cost effectve manner compared to running a quiet Honda propane adapted 2200 generator for the times we need it.

To each his own!
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:49 PM   #19
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I agree. I still work but I need to stay in contact for my work when I am camping. Having reliable electric is important beyond mere convenience. If I already had not invested in AGM (before lithium costs had come down to current levels), I would have lithium now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL View Post
I agree it’s not for everyone, but for some whom travel and work from their rigs it is. Power demands vary greatly from person to person. I do not think it is about running the microwave or AC as much as it is the convenience of not having to worry about it.
You are probably retired and camp to get away from it all. ( just a guess)
Some of us can’t “get away from it all”. Kids in school on the road, work, ie normal life but portable....
We have our rig set up to “live in“ not just travel in. Having all the conveniences of power hook up off grid without the need to run a generator for months at a time.

It really all boils down to preference. To each their on I guess.
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Old 11-02-2020, 04:52 AM   #20
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Another thing to consider is do you need other work done at the same time as the solar install? We are also having a Dexter lift kit (easier for our sloped driveway), WiFi Booster, in-house surge protector, monitoring controls, etc. done at the same time. Airstream Nuts and Boltsworks on one trailer at a time and can do all this in about a week. All our lives my husband and I have done EVERYTHING ourselves... not this time! We are looking forward to being treated by someone else ( who does great work!) doing this for us. We are preparing for retirement, (hopefully in the next 6 months or so)! PS (We care nothing about the microwave usage but that A/C is a must-have where we live and camp!)
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